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O/T to pay or not pay, legal advice

J

johnald

Member
Wife quit a job back in feb. Left on good terms everything fine. March comes and she gets a paycheck she wasn't supposed to and it was promptly returned. Come to find out the lazy office manager who has a history of shirking responsibility forget/lost the paper work to terminate my wifes employment. About a week later the lazy office manager says she miscalculated vacation pay that was given at the time my wife quit and now we owe them $700.
I was fine giving back the extra paycheck, no big deal. This $700 is making me angry. We were lead to believe that everything was fine and that this is what my wife is owed fair and square. Months later they are saying oh sorry we made a mistake now you owe.
Today wife talks to lazy office manager and she says "well you should have just lied and told me you didn't quit until this day then everything would be fine." Lady in HR says all she needs is a letter from lazy admitting the mistake and everything is fine. Lazy doesn't want to wright the letter.
I'm ready to go down there and raise hell and tell them if they want their money go get it from lazy since it's all her fault.
My question is do I have a legal leg to stand on if I hold my ground and don't pay. I really don't have an extra 700 laying around and the employer won't miss it for a second.
any help or insight is greatly appreciated.
 
I'd be taking it up with the office manager's boss... Tell them you will pay if you have too, BUT the lazy om needs a tuning in... In this day and age that is unacceptable, also tell the boss about the pay check that you returned, if it has happened to you, you can be it has happenend to others too... they might not have been as honest as you!
The boss or owner needs to know.
 
I would not talk to them at all. Sever all ties and forget the whole thing. If you go down to their place you risk being arrested. Any further discussion on this should be mailed to you in writing including the original claim they say they have so in the future any attorny you hire can review this matter.If the claim is they made a miscalculation and want reimbursment from you then let them show you all the math in a full written explanation. Even after that I would probably not pay them money.
 
Most folks go to Facebook, rather than Yesterday's Tractors, for legal advice; we're more about advice on relationships............
 
Okay, this is free and worth just what I'm charging........

THIS IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS PROFESSIONAL LEGAL ADVICE, FOR THAT CONSULT A LOCAL PROFESSIONAL COMPETENT QUALIFIED ATTORNEY WHO PRACTICES IN THIS AREA OF THE LAW AND NOTTTTTTTTTTTTT LAY OR EVEN UNRESEARCHED PROFESSIONAL ADVICE OFFERED HERE.

That all being said and without the facts and hearing BOTH sides of the story and not having researched your states laws I OFFER THIS FWIW (Absolutely Nothing, as is all here absent a review of your States law and knowing all the facts)

I also would FIRST go up the ladder and chain of command and consicesly and in chronological order lay out your story starting with your best arguments/reasoning FIRST

If that dont work and they demand money PUT THE TIME BURDEN AND EXPENSE ON THEM dont you take it on, you dont have to as you have the money now and its therefore up to them to take it to Court and obtain a court order requiring you to pay, which if ordered you should do BUT ABSENT THAT give em the raspberries lol

Practical matters: Bad public relations and considering the cost of litigation DO YOU THINK THEY REALLY WANT TO SUE YOU FOR A LOUSY $700????

Legal matters:

You would argue HEY ITS THEIR MISTAKE not mine so they should be held accountable not me the poor innocent victim (the poor victim part is sort of a nnalert argument lol)

They will argue you were unjustly enriched and were NOT owed that money and therefore its ours, so pay it back (sort of a nnalert argument)

A Jury often favors the little guy while in a bench trial the Judge applies the law to the facts i.e. you likely have a better chance if front of a jury of your peers

From a pure unresearched off the cuff strict legal (also moral) viewpoint, YOU LIKELY OWE THE MONEY AS A STRICT MATTER OF LAW

Back to practical again, go up the ladder give em the raspberries and put the burden on them if they actiually will do it?????

John T BSEE, JD Country Lawyer
 
I'm with Doc Sportster on this. Sounds like a Mexican standoff in the office, so just let them do what they will- which is probably nothing, from the sound of things.

Too many people get too intent on DISproving the opponent's case- you don't have to- THEY have to prove THEIR case, and when they are in such disarray as in this one, they usually just sweep it under the rug. Nobody wants to kick it upstairs to the boss.

Sometimes its best to just let things happen if they will, instead of trying to get them to formally tell you that its settled. Many cases get settled by non-action, especially small potential lawsuits.
 
I would not pay it and I would not even worry about it until I had something in writing explaining what the mistake was and how it was made. I think it would be very difficult for them to make a legal case on this and not worth it for $700. But, if they want to pursue the issue, make them put it in writing.
It's been my experience (I'm usually working from the employer's side of the deal) that, generally, vacation pay and bonuses are not protected under employment laws (at least in my state) and unless there is a written contract covering them, they are hard to enforce either way.
That's my .02 worth, your mileage may vary.
 
Tell the lazy ofice manager you want something in writing requesting the pay back and explaining how it came to be. Essentually she has to admit she made a mistake and explain how she made it. You won't have to worry about it after that.
 
The up side...You'll get more varied opinions per capita on this website than any other on earth. NEVER short on opinions here.
 
One way to deal with is what Nathan said below.

Also call the place and tell them your wife was in a car wreck and she cant talk right now. A little bit of sympathy goes a long way. (medical bills you know)
 
sure... you can reimburse them.. right after you pay your CPA's bill and attorney's bills to verify and validate their wrong doing and incompetence.

did I say they owe you another $1500 or so for expenses and they you can go right ahead and cut them a check for $700.
 
I would assume she had a final company debriefing, and a final check. "FINAL". Let them contact you. If they call tell them legal will be looking into it. HR knew what they were talking about when they said they would take care of it.
 
I haven't heard anything as to whether is she entitled to it in her understanding of the emmployment conditions. Handbook or whatever establishes normal practice. If she had it coming it is worth a fight, if not, can you sleep at night if it is not morally her's ?

JMHO

Areo
 
Back in the mid to late 80s I worked on a river dredge for the Army Corps of Engineers. Was commuting from the Twin Cities to down near St Louis every two weeks. Because it was so far I was getting travel pay.
A couple of months after I got layed off that fall I got a letter from them stating they had mistakenly over payed me for travel and wanted about $700 back.
I tossed the letter in to the circular file.
That spring when I was expecting a refund from my taxes the IRS deducted the $700 I owed them and sent the rest.
Grrr
Meanwhile I had gone on to other work and never worked for them again.
Fast forward about 4 years.
One day I go get the mail and there is a letter from the Corps of Enineers.
In it I found a check for $700 and a letter explaining that the accounting department had been correct the first time and an internal audit decieded I was entitled to the $700 after all.
That letter (and check) I didn't throw in to the circular file...
 
WHY NOT JUST GET THE FACTS, Then do the honest thing? If you have to repay to be honest, (regardless who is at fault) make payments, and sleep good at night.

We seem to lose track of right and wrong in this country, and that alone is a cancer that has spread into our lives.

Now I"m not dressed in white, so after the process starts to clear up, go up the chain of comand and ask how such a mistake could have been made in the first place. Don"t forget the over wage payment ordeal. The spotlight will get focused, and you will have done the company a good deed to boot.
 
Reread your third sentence. Then tell Lazy you are not doing anything on a phone call. Tell her to write you a letter explaining why you owe the money. If you don't get the letter, don't worry about it. If you do get a letter, give a copy to the lady in HR. Everything is fine.
 
well i did some digging and found that it was the accounting department that found lazy's mistake. They sent lazy an email that she forwarded to us. I can see their case for us paying back but we have just as good a case for keeping it. It's hard to explain it all on this forum.
The core of my argument is that if lazy actually did her job this wouldn't have happened i.e. this is her fault. We have been honest and forthcoming the whole time and are getting the short end of the stick. If she had filed the stupid papers on time and not waited two months without telling anyone none of this would have happened. I wish I could explain to you all how disfuntional this place is. It is a medical office in a university so profitability and efficiency don't really matter to them at all. The doctors are in charge but they are always in surgery or playing golf and ole lazy does whatever she wants.
Anyway, we'll end up paying it back but not before I let them know what I think about this mess and the way they have handled it.
Thanks for listening to my rant and I appreciate your comments.
 
Having been on the other side of the fence, that is having an employee quit and try to do the company out of money for uniforms that was legitimately owed and agreed to be paid back, here's my thoughts. Write a letter to the company manager(may be a VP or division mgr., or?) who is in charge of the entire operation. Outline in chronological detail the circumstances. State your reasons for feeling you don't owe anything, the circumstances of the extra check and how you returned it, etc. State your willingness to be fair and honest, but that you need total documentation of the facts that support your owing money back to the company. No company is going to spend much time recovering $700 when it could result in a lot of bad publicity and that's the reason for wanting the documentation, along with giving you data if there is a court fight later. On the other hand someone could take a personal interest in protecting company assets if they felt that someone was trying to steal from them. That was the situation with me and I did recover all the money owed. It became a matter of principle, but very easily could have been avoided for less than half what was owed. Just a few thoughts
Paul
 
"About a week later the lazy office manager says"

Lazy office manager needs to put everything in writing. "Says" don't mean anything other than mebbe a bluff. I'd wait them out. Looks like you and wife would have noticed the extra $700 when wife received it - IF there was an extra $700 given to her. When I retired I had everything calculated out to the penny, and I'da noticed an error of that magnitude.
 
yeah its a matter of principle at this point. I work my fingers to the bone every day to keep my business afloat. If I make a mistake and crops fail its on me. no going back and having someone else pay up. I don't understand how places like this can hang around without going bankrupt. Oh wait, it's in the health care industry. Like I said before, profitability and efficiecency don't mean a thing. They can take what they want.
Ok sorry again for ranting. I think I need to just call it a day and go to bed.
 
Wife should know what she got for vacation pay, not that hard to figure out. Sounds like she got overpaid by seven hundred by mistake. Not your money, give it back. If you had overpaid somebody, you would be raising heck, wanting your money back.
 
I wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place, plain and simple. This is really screwing up our finances. Easy to say such things when it isn't you in the grinder.
 
No matter whose mistake it was, answer this question: Did the company pay your wife $700 more than they were supposed to?

If the answer is YES, then the honest thing to do is to pay them back.

If the answer is NO, then tell them to pound sand.

Doing the RIGHT thing isn't always the same as doing the EASY thing. If it was, more people would do the right thing.

If you're an honest person, you already know the answer. And this is the same advice I'd give my kids under similar circumstances.
 
Might not have noticed a 700 dollar over payment on
vacation payout because vacations cashed out are
considered a bounus and taxed at a higher rate,
nearly 50%. So while they are saying 700 you need
to look and see if you received 700 or 700 - taxes.
In my book, they are responsible for the overpaid
taxes if any and not you, not your fault. Just
something to consider before writing them a full
amount check.
 
Do whatever let's you sleep at night. If you pay it, I'd make sure you have everything in writing and official. Not only to reflect it on your taxes, but that 700 bucks could just be what the office person owes the pettycash box and is trying to fix it however possible....
 
I agree with Dave2 on the possibility of making things look good. Have You asked her to put her boss on the phone? That might put a scare into her!!! The world wants You to beleive computers are the problem. But its the people who enter the information that are normally to blame!
 
I know of a company that overpaid it's employees
by $5.00 an hour for two years or maybe a little
more. The way they did this was the employees were supposed to contribute to a fund out of their pay
and by mistake the lady that did payroll thought
the company was responsible for the
contribution,and the employer contributed to it.
That company never asked for one cent back. They
fired the payroll lady and corrected the way they
did payroll. Case closed. I heard someone say they
could have gone back two weeks. This over payment
involved 40 or more people, 40 hours a week. That
was a lot of money.
 
Office manager made a mistake. Then tells your wife she should have lied. Then claims she made another mistake. I would be down there talking to the owner asking for proof that you owe the money. If you do,work out a payment plan.

They need to find a new office manager.
 
I'm sure your wife can look at her check stub's and figure out whether she owes the money or not. If it's owed pay it.

You have NO buisness talking to her former employer and saying anything. That's her job.
 
Thats what I was thinking. What business is it of the husband to be ranting about his wifes vacation check? If she owes it, pay it back. Simple. If you want a vacation check go get yourself a job.
 
Why exactly do you assume that I don't have a job? I'm ranting because now I have to pay this back with my money that I earned. davpal, keep it to yourself. When something affects my home and the people in it, I don't care what the circumstances are, it is my business. Period. Some of us have a spine.
 
I just assumed you don't have a job because I don't think you do. I think you probably stay at home and do your farming and she goes to work every day and earns a salary and a vacation check. How many vacation checks did your "job" pay you this year. I do have a spine and a vacation check because I go to work every day. I don't get to stay home. But I also farm if that counts.
 
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