Perttronix breakerless ign - ???

My Deere 1010 crawler has wear problems inside the Delco distributor. The rubbing-block cam for the points is rusted and very worn. Rather then search for used parts - I figured it would be easier to buy a "breakerless" kit and just slide a reluctor wheel over the old cam.

But - after reading what little tech info Pertronix provides, and then talking with their tech department - I'm kind of disgusted with them. Mabye I'm missing something here?

First of all - with many older tractors only the standard "Ignitor" kit is available. This kit claims "higher voltage" yet MUST be used with a 3 ohm coil only. It cannot handle a 1.5 ohm higher-energy coil used in many cars, trucks, and tractors. It will burn out and void warranty. This fact got me confused. They say for best results - use their "40,000 volt" Flamethrower coil that is 3 ohms, not 1.5 ohms. So, I guess if it was special made with a higher ratio of primary-secondard winding turns it might be possible. But I cannot find any real specs on these Chinese coils Pertronix is selling. When I called their tech line and asked about the 3 ohm-coils-only thing - they told me they sell a special 2.8 ohm coil for tractors and crawlers. Part # 28010. I asked about the ratio of coil windings and got no answer.

So, as far as I can tell, the OEM Deere 1.5 ohm coil - used with a bypass resistor system is probably just as capable of higher voltage as the Pertronix - and maybe even higher?

Oh well. I'm not going to buy something that lacks proper tech info. Even their "new" catalogs" are dated 2008 and 2010 which is kind of strange. Last I checked, this is 2012.

I'm going to make my own breakerless high-energy system that allows a low ohm coil. I'm going to rob parts from a 90s Chrysler four-cylinder engine. I see that many tractor pullers do the same. Once done, all parts are generic and available from any auto parts store.

LJD, good for you. If you make it work, would you mind providing the details? For what it's worth, my opinion of the Pertronix units is that not only are they WAY over-rated, but also extremely over priced.

Several years ago I converted an 8 horse Briggs over to electronic ignition, and if I remember right, that electronic unit didn't cost much more than I would have spent on a new set of points and a condensor.

It"s all about dwell time and magnetic saturation . A standard coil have enough capacity to spark a V8 at 5500rpm. No problem to handle a four banger running 2000. The coil is fully saturated long before the next spark is required. There is a limit to coil saturation, after a point more is not better. The gain in energy and increase in voltage with electronic switching vs mechanical switch. It"s the instant and abrupt inturption of primary current that obtains the fastest instantaneous collapse of the coil"s magnetic field. Points dribble, arc and sputter which slows the collapse of the magnetic field. Voltage, current and power is all about quicker switching.

Yeah, I converted many old Briggs over to their "Magnetron" system and they worked fine. But those things are tried and tested and replacement parts easy to buy just about anywhere.

I understand the concept of saturation and collapse. And yes, I suspect it's done better/faster/cleaner electronically rather then mechanically.

That being said - I suspect there is not a huge difference when points are in good shape.

I do know that a clean spark plug in free air gapped at .030" can fire at 10,000 volts. When inside a combustion chamber in a compressed air-fuel mix and cold it can take near 30,000 volts. If fouled it might take 40,000 volts.

Just any car or truck with factory breakerless ignition can easily make 40,000 volts. My 1960 Deere 1010 with the 1.5 ohm coil when in resistor-bypass mode for cranking can make 30,000 volts. But a Pertonix with a 3 ohm coil?? I don't know. They DO claim 40,000 volt potential IF, and only IF you buy their special Flamethrower coil which is still 3 ohms.

The fact is - I really don't know and they provide very little tech info. Pertonix DOES make other systems e.g. the Ignitor II or III that do use low ohm coils. They however are not offered for many of the older tractors.

From a more simple point of view - why did car makers use more substantial equipment back when breakerless first came out and computers weren't being used? Usually a reluctor wheel, pickup assembly (Hall Effect or photo-sensor) and a substantial control box. No such thing with the Pertonix.

Again - I don't really know and Pertonix gives very little tech info. I DO know - according the what I've read with tractor pullers - they do NOT use Pertonix and tend to make their own systems from common auto parts. The 90s Chrysler and Ford systems preferred.

I still have some of those electronic kits for the B&S engines. Hal

I put a perttronix ignition system on a 640 Ford tractor about 10 years ago. There is no way I would go back to a points system, no trouble so far, gap your plugs at 35-40 thousandts. The 640 uses a six volt system and yes, I used the original coil that was on the tractor. Joe

(quoted from post at 07:38:31 04/05/12) I understand the concept of saturation and collapse. And yes, I suspect it's done better/faster/cleaner electronically rather then mechanically.

That being said - I suspect there is not a huge difference when points are in good shape.

I do know that a clean spark plug in free air gapped at .030" can fire at 10,000 volts. When inside a combustion chamber in a compressed air-fuel mix and cold it can take near 30,000 volts. If fouled it might take 40,000 volts.

Just any car or truck with factory breakerless ignition can easily make 40,000 volts. My 1960 Deere 1010 with the 1.5 ohm coil when in resistor-bypass mode for cranking can make 30,000 volts. But a Pertonix with a 3 ohm coil?? I don't know. They DO claim 40,000 volt potential IF, and only IF you buy their special Flamethrower coil which is still 3 ohms.

The fact is - I really don't know and they provide very little tech info. Pertonix DOES make other systems e.g. the Ignitor II or III that do use low ohm coils. They however are not offered for many of the older tractors.

From a more simple point of view - why did car makers use more substantial equipment back when breakerless first came out and computers weren't being used? Usually a reluctor wheel, pickup assembly (Hall Effect or photo-sensor) and a substantial control box. No such thing with the Pertonix.

Again - I don't really know and Pertonix gives very little tech info. I DO know - according the what I've read with tractor pullers - they do NOT use Pertonix and tend to make their own systems from common auto parts. The 90s Chrysler and Ford systems preferred.

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My question is so what if the pullers use something? Don't make it better. How long are they running a tractor at one time? 5-10 minutes tops? Doing something as a hobby? So when it breaks no big deal right? Pull it off the track, winch it on a trailer and take it home. Got all week to fix it before the next pull? On a working tractor something breaks most often you need it fixed right now, not next week after you have time to fab a new dizzy. I know of several people who have working tractors with the Pertonix system and are happy with them. Down side is that you can't go to the local parts store and get parts. But if the points system was OK and you retain the parts you can switch it back while you wait for parts. I was considering getting the Petronics system but have decided not to because of the waiting for parts or having to have parts on hand for something that may last years without needing them. I do agree that it's messed up about thier lack of info.

Rick

I would be interested in your posting your final result(I am thinking of making up my own generic petronix system for an Oliver). Title of the post could be "Last angry customer vs Petronix).
Just joking on the Last angry customer part.

You"ll probably be much better off making your own system. I WAS a big proponet of the Pertronix unit until I had two units fail within a few months. The first unit went 5 years and the seciond went a few months. (And I didn"t leave the key on to cause the failure!)
After testing the unit per their methodolgy, I got a free replacement module for the second unit but never installed it. They get ~$100 for the unit and it should last a lifetime. This is low rev machine running in a better temperature environment (on my TO-30) than a car. All the factory electronic ignitions I had in cars were never a problem.

I think they may have shipped production to the "land of almost right" and the reliability isn"t there. The reason I bought the system was so I wouldn"t have to futz with mechanical points. I like the concept of electronic switching in the ignition system but the executuon by Pertronix leaves a lot to be desired.

The one and only difference between a six V a d twelve V coil is the 12V has twice as many turns of wire on the primary winding. The case, magnetic core and the secondary windings are identical. The secondary's volts X amps which Calculates joules of energy stay the same. If the coil's primary has had enough time to saturate the core.

The needs of a puller are quite different then those of an average tractor user. I suppose they need maintained high energy at very high RPMs - just like in racing apps. There is more demand at high RPMs. I also figure they make their own systems for several reasons - and durability and cheap parts prices is among them. And one more thing . . . very often tractor pullers are more "hands on" and innovative then many tractor owners/casual tractor users I know.

From what I've observed here from people with Pertronix kits? Most posts I've read are about problem tractors that got magically "fixed" with these kits. Seems the tractors weren't right to start with so it's a poor "before and after" story. These posts also rarely state WHICH Pertronix kit was used. The standard Ignitor is quite different from the Ignitor II or III.
One poster here mentions no problems with his 6 volt tractor. Well - that's doesn't tell me much either. My main stated concern is a low ohm (1.5) coil used on a 12 volt system that fries Pertronix Ignitor modules. Not an issue when the same coil is used with only 6 volts.

I've got many gas tractors, 6 and 12 volt with breaker ignition. I don't have any "problems" with any of them ofter then having to scrape, file, or replace points every 5 years or so. They start fine and run perfect as they are. That includes my 1010 Deere crawler, Deere 300 wheel tractor, HG and OC3 Oliver crawlers, Ford 4000 loader-hoe, Ford 641 wheel tractor, four Case VACs, Shaw R12, and an IH 3414 loader-hoe. If I was to install Pertronix on any of them - the only potential gain I can figure on is no more scraping/adjusting points every half-a-decade. When maintained, the tractors start fine and run fine - just like they left the factory. Kind of hard to improve on that.

Every time I hear one of these stories about "how much better my tractor is now with Pertonix" - it leaves me wondering. What was wrong with it before?

I've got no reservations about the benefit potential of a high energy breakerless system that is proven reliable. And maybe the Pertonix Ignitor II and III qualify. But as I see it -the standard Ignitor does not and that's all there is available for many old tractors.

I've got an open mind though. I'd like hear a standard Ignitor user actually post some details about what the old breaker system did NOT do, and the new Pertronix system does do.

My situation with my 1010 is different. I've got bad metal parts inside the distributor and used distributors are pricey. I can probably buy a Pertronix kit to replace my points rubbing block cheaper the fixing it. That's a problem caused by years of rust - not a design problem inherent to breaker-point ignition.

Yes - but some coils have a higher winding ratio between the secondary and primary. Many stock coils are a 60-1 or 80-1 ratio to step up the voltage. Some "high-voltage" coils have as 100 to 1 ratio.

I have a Ford 641 and it still has the original ignition system. When I first got it about 8 years ago I gave it a cheap "tune up" with new points, capacitor, and plugs, cleaned the carb, etc. Been brush-hogging with it every summer since and it's hasn't skipped a beat. Starts fine and runs fine. So, you've got me wondering. What was the big improvement with your 640?

The only experience I have with Pertronix is that I installed them on two International trucks, one with a 304 V8 and the other with a 392 V8, and now those engines run better than when they were new, and higher MPG.

VERY INTERESTING for us sparkies at least. You likely already know all this JD but for others benefits I will just toss this out from an engineeres perspective.......

Sellers hype all this crap about their HIGH VOLTAGE COILS butttttttttt the coil only rises high enough in voltage until curent can arc jump the plugs gap AND NO HIGHER. When the magnetic field collapses and high voltage is induced over into the HV secondary it ramps up BUT ONLY UNTIL ITS HIGH ENOUGH SO THE PLUG FIRES AND NO HIGHER. (HV coil dont necessaruly fire at their advertised 40,000 volts, its just that they CAN achieve 40,000 if necessary but it only rises high enough to fire the plug NO HIGHER)

The voltage it takes to arc jump current across the gap is a function of 1) the gap distance and 2) the medium (fuel and compression) in which it fires

Sooooooooo all things being equal (plug gap and compression) the HIGH VOLTAGE COIL will fire at about the same voltage as the stock coil (subject to minor inefficiency or magnetic field differences from better magnetic materials etc)

HOWEVER the thing is the HV coil has THE CAPACITY to rise to higher voltage (then the stock may have) if necessary like if the gap is increased dramatically OR the compression is much higher. If youre running exotic fuels and at very high compression the voltage has to rise higher before the plug fires so the HV coil has the capacity to achieve higher (if necessary) voltages.

Next, if mechanical points have to switch much higher then 4 or 5 amps they burn up sooner sooooooooo the elec switch can be better cuz it can switch higher currents (if so rated) and it provides a fast positive switching without the condensor and ringing and point bounce ect.

If the coil is only 1.5 ohms and theres no ballast on a 12 v system the points would have to switch 12/1.5 = 8 amps and that will burn the points sooooooooo if the elec switch is rated 8 amps it works but if rated less it can only switch its rating (why may still need a ballast even with elec switch if its only rated 4 amps)

BOTTOM LINES:

The stock coil can likely (unless compression is way higherand plug gap is increased dramatically) rise to high enough voltage with points or elec switch. The HV coil wont fire any higher then the stock if all else is equal (but it can if necessary remember)

BUT HERES WHY THE MATCHING OF A HIGH ENERGY COIL AND AN ELEC SWITCH (capable of passing and switching more current then points) CAN IMPORVE PERFORMANCE

Okay if you store more energy (volts x amps x time) becasue you pump more current into a higher energy coil during the conduction cycle THAT MEANS YOU HAVE MORE ENERGY (volts x amps x time) TO DISCHARGE ACROSS THE PLUGS GAP WHEN IT FIRES. And if you run a wider plug gap (HV coil can handle) and if you discharge more energy (volts x amps x time) across that wider gap when the plug fires THAT CAN IMPROVE PERFORMANCE especially if youre running at higher compression.

I been retired as an electrical engineer for yearsssssssssssss but Im pretty sutre this is all sound. Im NOT saying elec switch will add much if any HP mind you Im ONLY sayingif you run high compression and a wider gap the stock ignition may not perfrom as well as if you match an elec switch with a high energy HV coil at a wider gap in which case FOR SURE you do discharge more energy (volts x amps x time) across the plug gap when it fires and most report improved starting and idling when they do so

John T Too long retired EE but love this sparky chat

Some years back I always used the older Chrysler product elec switching boxes to convert marine and car n truck n tractors to elec ignition versus points AND THEY ALL PERFORMED GREAT.....the Chrysler box was just so easy to wire up and use.........

John T

I have two of the Pertronix units and have installed others. One is on my pulling tractor and the other is on a tractor I used to pull but is now retired to farm duty. I have had zero problems with both. The older puller runs crisper than it did with points and will start in a monsoon. I installed the same unit on my current puller. If the engine turns at all it will run. In fact, on the older puller I once started it doing NO cranking because it was on stroke and had mixture in it. Turned on the switch and it started. I am well pleased with both. On another farm tractor I kept the regular points and it does not run as crisp. Mike

Believe it or not, I AM open-minded. But . . since Pertronix gives very little hard data/specs - I don't have a lot to go on. I do know most if not all comes from China. They had a big recall lately due to a bunch of Chinese epoxy "Flamethrower" coils failing.

As I stated earlier - posts on these forums are just about always the same. Someone installed a Pertronix kit and tractor runs "better then new", or more "fuel efficient", etc. Also note that the specific version of the Pertronix is just about NEVER mentioned.

None of those claims make a lick of sense to me . . . so I have to "throw out the baby with the bathwater."

The gain in MPGs really mystifies me. I've had many old Chevys that I converted to HEI breakerless. I did it because it cost me nothing and saved me the bother of changing points.

My 1965 Bel Air with a 283 and Powerglide trans got 13 MPG with points and 13 MPG with HEI breakerless. NO difference and it ran exactly the same.

My 1970 Nova with a 307 and Powerglide trans got a whopping 14 MPG since the day it was new. Back in the 80s, I stuck in HEI breakerless in that too. Guess what? It started and drove exactly the same and still got 14 MPG.

Going backwards here - my 1972 MGB had a breakerless kit in it when I got it. It failed and I had to convert back to points. NO difference in the way it ran or with fuel mileage.

I suppose with breakerless-high-energy . . . if ever flooded the engine and fouled the plugs - the HEI would give me more spark potential and a better chance of starting. Never needed to find out though.

The standard "first-version" Pertonix Ignitor, if anything, appears to offer less energy then a standard 12 volt system with a resistor and 1.5 ohm coil. Pertonix tech department told me it MUST be used with a 3 ohm coil or it will burn out. They also told me that just recently they started offering a 2.8 ohm coil that gives better voltage. So it seems they also feel a lower ohm coil can provide more potential spark energy.

Oh well, maybe I'm beating a dead horse here. If someone believes their tractor is "better then new" once the Pertronix kit is installed - fine. I refuse to believe it - but also won't argue the point.

You will like how your engine runs with that Chrysler electronic ignition system, I modified one to work on my 64 model 4020 10 years ago.
I used the early 70's Mopar control box and double resistor along with the stock Mopar coil.

At the time, I still had a little 10MT starter on the tractor, so had to deal with low cranking speed. Point triggered EI will fire right down to 0 rpm, while magnetic trigger needs a little more rpm to excite the pickup coil.
For that reason, I used the stock distributor to point trigger the ignition box, something I would not do again now that I have the much better cranking 20MT starter on the tractor.

I had to re mount the points in the distributor to deal with the fact that when you point trigger the Mopar EI box, it fires when the points close instead of the normal firing when the points open.

My main trouble with the stock point system was that it had very weak spark, only 4.5 volts to the coil(run position) with points closed. It was near impossible to start and keep the tractor running in cold damp weather. The ignition resistor was built into the rear of the ignition switch, That setup made for a weak spark when the switch and resistor was new, and degenerated to unusable as the resistor aged (2-3 years)in the weather.

When I installed the Mopar electronic setup, I pulled power from the battery at the starter, through a 15 amp fuse and switched it using a little "cube" accessory relay, powered by the original ignition coil feed wire.

Now the ignition system no longer depends on the original ignition switch / resistor / wiring feed and it's voltage drop because that same circuit feeds the starter solenoid during cranking.

The result was the thing now starts easily in any weather, pulls much better under load with hot spark that does not blow out under heavy load. I can run the carb leaner as the good spark now fires a leaner mixture.
I used to have to change plugs every year, and had light load / idle plug fouling problems.

With the electronic setup, never a fouled plug, which have been in the tractor for 10 years since the ignition conversion.

Mine is a working tractor that must be dependable, so I was not wanting to put on a pertronix setup when no one locally stocks replacement parts. Did not want to buy a spare module, as that is the most expensive part.

With the Mopar stuff, parts are at every local auto parts store.

I have installed a half dozen or so Pertronix kits in tractors and skid loaders for others, all have been happy.

One advantage of that Pertronix kit is that you can install it in a worn out distributor with worn point cam, worn shafts, worn bushings where the point gap and timing is bouncing all over the map, when the Pertronix magnetic trigger system is installed, that wear makes almost no difference. The hotter solid state switched spark, now properly timed for each cylinder, really makes those old engine start and run nice.

Very interesting. Thanks for the detailed reply. If I had a "user" that got run a lot of hours, I wouldn't take a chance on the Pertronix. But for a part-time user yeah. I might do it on my 1010 crawler just to avoid fixing the distributor that's in it now. All my "user" tractors are diesels - so the spark ignition is not an issue. My 1970 boat has a Chrysler engine with points and a capacitive ignition box. Uses plugs with no ground electrode sticking out (huge gap). Maybe somewhat similar to what you've accomplished with your hybrid points-controller setup.

I've installed a new Ignitor coil #40611 for my 12v system. Several years ago I was having cutting-out problems on my White/Oliver/Cockshutt 2-44LL 12v TLB and I went through 3 coils in one summer. Two of those coils were new ones made in China. Poor quality and vibration killed the coils so I upgraded to a Pertronix Electronic Ignition with the Epoxy-filled coil (#40611) and I've not had one problem since.

If you notice in the attached photo on Pertronix coils you'll see that the difference between a 6v coil (#40111) and the 12v coil (#40611) is the 'turn ratio' of 115:1 vs 73:1, and so this means that since the volume of the coil is constant, the way to alter the internal resistance is to alter the number of windings on either the Primary or the Secondary side. By altering the windings you alter the amount of metal in there, hence the resistance. So there really is no such thing as a seperate "Internal Resistor" inside these coils, however, the gauge of wire used could also be altered.

From this chart, coil #40111 can be used on a 12v 8-cyl motor OR a 6v 4-cyl motor

<a href="http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r268/dgminke/?action=view&amp;current=Pertronixcoils.jpg" target="_blank"> </a>

<a href="http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r268/dgminke/?action=view&amp;current=killyourtvpurple.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

you can talk all you want ask for spec and all that. myself i have installed them on several super c a ford 4000 4cly a ford 3000 3cly 140s and a couple jd the first one guess 5 or so years ago to this date they are all still working all the owner would fight you if you tried to remove them. use of less gas more power i have no idea. they all start better and that was what i told the guys when i suggested them to date all are still happy. where how and when there made i realty did think about it at the time i be good if they were made in the U S but they work,

I put the Petronix on my 4Star Minneapolis Moline just because it's so dang hard to service the distributor, I just wanted to get away from point failure. I've not had any trouble with it but I sure wouldn't say it starts or runs any different.

To get higher mpg the old system would have to be misfiring.

I worked with color Tvs running 25000 volts,those that went to 30000 volts could make long arcs that could crack CRTs.40000 volts would punch thru ignition wire insulation and destroy distributor caps.Rotors would fail fast,

My Dodge Truck 788T 1976 had the air gap ignition, never touched it, worked like a charm.

(quoted from post at 19:47:42 04/05/12) My Dodge Truck 788T 1976 had the air gap ignition, never touched it, worked like a charm.

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JD seems really hung up on a low resistance primary, but energy is 1/2 L X I X I, so energy can be increased either by more I or by more L.
It isn't a one trick pony. As for turns ratio, the very early SS igns used as high as a 400:1 turns ratio.......it wasn't to achieve a super high voltage, but rather it was a bandaid to be able to achieve a voltage as high as point systems could achieve with a 100:1 coil. Reason being, that the semiconductors available at the time couldn't survive the 200 to 400 volt primary voltages, so protection clamp diodes limited the primary to around 100 volts, thus to achieve 20K-40K secondary, they HAD to use 400:1 coils........it was a "fix" not a "feature". Just a bit of history.

I suspect that is an old list of apps? I spoke with Pertronix tech on the phone and they no longer allow anything but a 2.8 or 3 ohm coil to be used with the standard Ignitor system or warranty is void. That is - unless a resistor is used to make the total primary resistance 3 ohms. I asked about what happens in a crank/bypass system that makes it 1.5 ohms when cranking. I did not get a clear answer.

LDJ, here is the thing. You are convinced that the EI systems some pullers are putting together are reliable. They are running those tractors for 10-15 minutes at a time. They are trying to get really hot spark for what may well be a modified high compression engine for competition. Reliability isn't really an issue. A spare dizzy or two and spare parts in the tool box and they are good for a weekend of pulling. Now when they run one a couple of thousand hours then you can say they are reliable.

If you want to make your own make it. Let us know how it works out and build procedures. Would be interesting to see.

Rick

Depends where the resister is installed. There is a right and wrong location.

After you have blown 100 bucks on 3 bucks worth of parts in a lump of epoxy you have to expect a big increase in mpg.I dont know whats in the epoxy but I think it contains a Hall Effect transistor that triggers an SCR.The magnetic ring that triggers the transistor probably costs more to make than the module.You can buy a solid state module for your lawn mower engine for 8 bucks.