Survey???

SJ · Mar 20, 2012

Sold the farm.Had the survey done 3-4 weeks ago.Property consist of two lots side by side and all are landlocked with easement to get on property.Well yesterday buyers lawyer calls after looking at survey and wants to know what the 50-60ftx1386ft gap is between the lots.Say what!!
When I bought place 15yrs ago seller only had to have lot with house on it surveyed.Other lot hadnt been surveyed since measuring in chains and links.I jumped all over my lawyer as to why we didnt have both lots surveyed 15 yrs ago,he had no answer.Anyways if there is a space between the two lots why dont the surveyors have the stakes up to indicate that space.I havent seen the new survey.Called town assessor and they say that space doesnt exist on there tax maps.BTW Im in New York if anyone has any advice on this situation.So now we are in limbo,were a couple days from closing,everythings packed and nowhere to go.

Thanks

Stan

SJ · Mar 20, 2012

Btw
How much land is that
60 x 1386 ft.

Anonymous-0 · Mar 20, 2012

About 1.9 acres.

Areo

LJD · Mar 20, 2012

I'm not sure I understand all this. When you bought the place 15 years ago - it was up to you to get more survey work done if you wanted it - not the lawyer.

As to now? The tax map means nothing - so you can rule that out. As to the two surveyed parcels with a space inbetween? Surveys aren't legal proof of land ownership and/or boundaries. They are professional "opinions." Sometimes when two surveyors work in the same area, their lines don't match up since each has a different opinion where the lines are. Ask the surveyors of the two parcels what they think this theoretical space is. And if you still have the actual older line lengths in links and chains - convert them to feet and see if they check out. Just make sure convert from the correct types of links (there are two versions).

Steve KS · Mar 20, 2012

You need to look at the plat map the surveyor drew to figure this out. My guess is someone isn"t converting something right.

In answer to you question that"s almost 2 acres.
60x1,386 = 83,160sq ft / 43,560 sq ft/acre = 1.9091acres

SJ · Mar 20, 2012

Isnt that why we hire lawyers to advise us?
I totally disagree with that statement.
The same survey company did this recent survey as the one 15yrs ago.
Thanks for the response anyways.

Stan

VADAVE · Mar 20, 2012

Almost 2 acres

northvalePA · Mar 20, 2012

as the 'owner' of both parcels, it seems that you can legally agree that the two surveys share a common boundary. Get the surveys changed on paper to mathematically do that, then register them. Done deal.

Mike (WA) · Mar 20, 2012

These situations sometimes arise when two parcels are surveyed from different starting points- happened often with Donation Land Claims (Homesteads) in our area. I understand that "back east", many surveys were based on the big rock down in the creek (and the creek moved), the old Elm tree (which subsequently succumbed to Dutch Elm disease, etc.

The good news is that if you own on both sides of the strip, and you have been using it as though you owned it, there really is no one else who can exert a claim, and you would own it by adverse possession. It makes a Quiet Title action easy, because there is nobody with standing to contest it. Its just a matter of about 3 months time, and cost of publication of Summons, then getting a decree quieting title entered by default because no one contested it.

I have handled these in the past by having $2,000 or so of the seller's proceeds held back, pending completion of a Quiet Title action (at your expense, unfortunately). The hold-back is so buyer will have funds to do the quiet title if seller doesn't follow through.

Tony in Mass. · Mar 20, 2012

I owned 2 farms in New York state till a few years ago. Towards the end, surveys ment little, landlocked ment nothing. You owned what you were charged taxes on. They refered to their own maps. Surveyors and lawyers can fight each other, but you can't fight city hall.
This strip sounds like a second right of way? Between two now separate pacels on the road? Did you and the lawyer refer to tax maps at the county clerk's?
For instance, the last place had a 'landlocked' triangle between mine and the neighbor who was buying mine- at one time the whole place was one property- after reading out both deeds, his lawyer asked about this piece... I said 'who cares? It isn't separate on the county's records, I am retaining none of it, one of us has been paying tax on it for ages- and he will surround it anyway. That was the end of the issue. Yours sounds like a right of way someone forgot about, but be assured someone paid taxes on it.

Bob Bancroft · Mar 20, 2012

Do you have abstract(s) describing properties? Does your lawyer?
The county offices here (Cayuga County) have been helpful in a situation like that. If real property services can't figure it out, they go search through deeds. At least they used to.
They settled a dispute on a remote, obscure piece of property by discovering that when it changed hands twice at the same time a hundred years ago, it was only recorded once(in long hand)! Both parties had been paying taxes on it for decades!

TomH in PA · Mar 20, 2012

I asked a lawyer about what looked like a mistake on my deed once. He said you could probably find something in about 90% of the deeds in the county.

Mike obviously knows what he's talking about. Bottom line is that a survey is just a private citizen's opinion and usually has no real legal standing; you need to correct the deed with the proper corners and dimensions.

TomH in PA · Mar 20, 2012

Yea, a some corners on my deed are described as "a post on the bank of the river", "a pile of rocks", and "a spring".

WGM · Mar 20, 2012

I always get my legal/medical advise here. Do yourself a favor and get a good real estate lawyer. If you don"t know of one the local bar association or a lender (bank) could help.

GordoSD · Mar 20, 2012

Tell that lawer you will sell them the "gap" also for another 5000 dollars.

MarkB_MI · Mar 20, 2012

You are buying title insurance, aren't you? If so, then why isn't the lawyer talking to your title insurance company? If you're giving the buyer a warranty deed without purchasing title insurance, you're asking for trouble. If you're only giving the buyer a quit claim, then he's a dummy with a dumb lawyer.

MSD · Mar 20, 2012

I once had a piece surveyed and the surveyor drew up a Plat that I needed to have approved and signed by about 8 different county officials before I could do anything with it. The surveyor took it to the courthouse to have everyone sign off on it and I picked it up when it was done. Got it home and looked it over and the surveyor had put the wrong county on the plat. Everyone in my county office signed it and it was registered in my county but the plat was in an entirely different county. Everyone involved in that one had egg on their face. If I hadn't caught it, hard to tell how long it could have gone as a bad deed.

LJD · Mar 20, 2012

I'm not sure what you disagree with. Can you be more specific?

I can't speak for what you hired your lawyer for. When I use a lawyer it is for a specific purpose and I don't expect him/her to go beyond that request. If I use a lawyer to buy property -it's just to make the sure all the proper government paperwork is handled correctly and filed. I'd never hire a lawyer to determine land boundaries or interpret deeds. And searches and abstracts? Most lawyers I know farm it out to someone else and just add on their fee. Often the type or person who actually does the research work is someone like me.

wisbaker · Mar 20, 2012

Don't expect the government to straighten it out. Our county is 63 years into a 100 year lease for our fairgrounds when someone noticed the legal description on our lease doesn't match were our fairgrounds are and we built buildings and improvements on land we have no legal right to occupy.

JMS/.MN · Mar 20, 2012

Surveying is not an exact science. On paper it is, but get two surveyors on the same plot of land and they may not come up with the same locations for benchmarks or pins, much less property lines. In my Army Green Beret Engineer training we dealt with surveying as well as demolitions, roads, buildings, bridge construction and deconstruction. Maybe two weeks of survey training. As a civilian, I"ve had experience with surveyors on three different plots......they all made mistakes. Most glaring was when we sold Mom"s house, and the description said....from the benchmark at the post office, go 375 feet........etc. This was at the closing of the house sale....I said, 375 feet from the benchmark ...is a circle! You need an AZIMUTH from that point! ie, direction! Degrees, one way or another. And the family paid those clowns $500-1000 for their "work"!, which had to be re-done, and we had to show up later for the final closing.

soder33 · Mar 21, 2012

Sorry I didn't see this sooner. First, I am a land survey in another state, so I don't know the laws in New York. A common agreed boundary will not work, since this is a gap area. I take it that the gap came about because of two different points of beginning. I see two ways to clear this up, depending on what you or your lawyer discover.
In my state, we would start by doing research at the county courthouse. You would need to see if the original grantor or grantors of theses lots were still alive or if any heirs could be located. Then a quick claim deed could be drawn giving you title to the land.
If after a diligient search no one could be found, you would have your lawyer start a quiet title action to get ownership of this gap area.
All this takes time, which you say you don't have. I once bought a piece of property with title issues and the seller put $10,000 into escrow to clear up the title. Maybe your buying would agree to this if you have a plan in place to clear it up. Hope you have good luck with this and let me know how it turns out. I am always interested in ways to stay out of court and save clients money.

Survey???

Member

Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

New User

Member

Well-known Member

New User

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Member