Screwing their own people

flying belgian · Mar 6, 2012

State of Mn. needs to buy some of our land for a hyway expansion project. They appraised it and their first offer to us was very low so we had it appraised privately(which they paid for) After seeing the private appraisal they came back with a reasonable offer. My question is how come their second appraisal and offer was different then their first? Why were they trying to screw one of their own residents as if this were a private sale? How could their first appraisal two months ago have been that wrong? I know there is a sucker born every minute but this is not me or you trying to get a low ball deal on a tractor This is the state buying land from one of their own. Only thing I can come up with is their appraiser must get a bonus based on how low he can purchase the land. The lower the price, the bigger the bonus. Is the salary and benefits of state employees public information? So I can check my theory.

ShadetreeRet · Mar 6, 2012

You will seldom find any transaction such as this that they DON'T try to give you the shaft. You know, they got the gold mine, you get the shaft. The same thing happened here in NC a few years back,they relocated the highway by us and several of our neighbors had to relocate. One of them had to file a lawsuit against the state to get a fair price for his property.

oldtanker · Mar 6, 2012

I think they make those offers trying to keep the overall cost of a project down. THey think it's better to screw one land owner than the rest of us who pay taxes.

Rick

Errin OH · Mar 6, 2012

I think it goes both ways. They announced plans to take a curve out of a state route and build a new bridge south of me about five years back. The ground the new road and bridge was to sit on changed hands three times in 9 months before the state got a hold of it. Seems there was some law about the purchase price being at least what the current owner paid or within some such % of (didn't really follow it that close). Needless to say the hike in price just about ki11ed the deal. As I understand it, to save the deal the current land owner provided, at no cost, all the needed fill from some of their other land. But they did get a nice 25a lake/pond in the hole that was left.

PJH · Mar 6, 2012

Happens in Illinois, too. Not only highway related, either. We have a lake/reservior in our area that the property was secured for in the same manner. Folks were approached with a $50/acre offer and a subtle hint of emminent domain if they didn't take that offer. Most took it, thinking they would get less if they bucked the system. A very few refused, and they shelved the refusals until all the others were signed, THEN they dealt seriously with those few. Those few that had refused the original offer received $200+/acre. Bitter feelings in the neighborhood! The property aquisitioners justify that kind of behavior, as public servants, by saying that they are "looking out for the broader interest of the public".

A shyster by any other name is still . . . a shyster.

The meek and poor were on the $50 end. The brash and connected were on the $200 end. My old neighbor, who was forced to sell his bottom ground and was on the $50 end, never missed a chance to pee in the lake.

These are mid 60's prices for steep wooded hollows and little bottom fields.

Bud Tierney · Mar 6, 2012

In my years of title work in Calif and OR, original Highway offers to purchase were ALWAYS, INVARIABLY, lo-balls; not being on the Hiway Dept side, I can't comment on the reasoning.
I can't recall a single case that went to court where the final award wasn't well above, often several times above, the first offer.

JOB · Mar 7, 2012

MNDOT can still s_r_w you royaly even if they give you a fair price.If you are selling land to MNDOT make sure you put on the deed for highway purpose only. If they buy more land than is needed which they sometimes do, you need to put reverisionary rights on the excess property. On your terms not theirs. Their terms are you can buy it back at the current appraised market value, which could be 100 times purchase price. Your terms should be current appraised market value, or the price paid to you which ever is less, with no interest.
I can give you statutes pertaining to this if you are interested.

Anonymous-0 · Mar 7, 2012

Market value is for others apparently.

Owen Aaland · Mar 7, 2012

Does the State actually purchase the land or just pay for an easement. When the County road was rerouted here in the early '70s they only purchased an easement. I still own the land where the road is located. Since the old roadway was also an easement the County declared it abandoned so we have full control over that land.

2x4 · Mar 7, 2012

lots of times those making the offers are private companies contracted by the state & get a certain amount for closing a deal. The lower they get the ROW for, the more they keep themselves. When they find out they can't steal it, they pay regular price & still get their commissions.

Gun guru · Mar 7, 2012

How much land are they wanted for the new road?

How much was offered the 1st time and the 2nd time.

Kinda reminds me of the song from Jethro Tull....Farm on the Freeway.

MarkB_MI · Mar 7, 2012

The state would be abrogating its fiduciary responsibility to taxpayers if it didn't try to acquire right-of-way at the cheapest possible price.

northvale · Mar 7, 2012

Right. However, when it comes to their salaries, benefits and pensions, it is the exact opposite. So, what do you think the 'real' rules are?

JML755 · Mar 7, 2012

(quoted from post at 06:27:04 03/07/12) The state would be abrogating its fiduciary responsibility to taxpayers if it didn't try to acquire right-of-way at the cheapest possible price.

I agree, Mark. I don't fault them one bit for being cheap with taxpayer dollars. We've got a big problem in the Detroit Metro area (Wayne County, Michigan in particular) with politicians thinking the govt bank accounts are there for their enrichment. For those who are not aware, there is a current scandal here where a County employee QUIT her job to take a job as head of Metro Airport, another County entity, and got a $200,000 severance. FOR QUITTING!!! She eventually paid it back but that opened the door for more investigation and it turns out that's the tip of the iceberg: County appointees getting a 5:1 match on their 401k contributions, retirement "bonuses", people retiring than being hired back as consultants, etc. FBI is investigating. And the County executive has "apologized" but refuses to resign.

LJD · Mar 7, 2012

You're lucky they didn't just take your land via Emminent Domain. Then they could pay you anything they deemed proper and it would be up to you to prove otherwisej (at your expense). My town has threatened me twice with taking my land.

keh · Mar 7, 2012

All groups that are given condemning powers are a bunch of cheap skates. A utility company wanted land from me and threatened condemnation. My lawyer warned that a bad deal was better than a good lawsuit, because of the uncertainity of juries. I had to fight and delay to get 1/2 of what I thought it was worth, which was still 3 time their original loball offer.

KEH

mkirsch · Mar 7, 2012

(quoted from post at 04:20:34 03/07/12) Right. However, when it comes to their salaries, benefits and pensions, it is the exact opposite. So, what do you think the 'real' rules are?

There is only one rule. The first rule of capitalism:

Buy low, sell high.

As an employee, you are selling yourself. It only makes sense to sell yourself for as much as you can get. If some fool is willing to pay more than you're worth, you're a fool to turn it down.

WarrenBult · Mar 7, 2012

Government. First rule. Screw anybody they can.

WarrenBult · Mar 7, 2012

Government. First rule. Screw anybody they can.

greygoat · Mar 7, 2012

We've been on our place for 43 years, Across the
road from us is VIRGIN PRAIRIE..Never been plowed
DNR wanted it bad..described it as "The best
Prairie reminent in the State of Wisconsin" they
appraised it for $6000 per acre.Owner wouldn't
sell! Owner passed away at 103 years old, Son
wanted "More", or he'd develop it, "and the Bull-
Dozers would roll"! DNR re-appraised by the
"Nature Conservancy" Son got $16,000 per acre for
60 acres..it's now a State Natural Area.

Aaron Ford · Mar 7, 2012

Around here, the rule is to watch the politicians. If they are buying up property, then you can bet a road is going through. They buy market value, then demand top dollar from the gov't. It's called insider trading in the stock market, but daily business here.

Aaron

JOB · Mar 7, 2012

There are different rules for eminent domain purchases, you should read the Minnesota statutes pertaining to eminent domain purchases.

El Toro · Mar 7, 2012

That happened here in MD back in the early 1960's when I-95 was being built. One couple had just built a new home and she was pregnant with their first child. They took that new house and she lost the baby from a miscarriage.

The house was sold to a couple that had a gravel pit and had the equipment to move the house. We rented that house back in 1968 while our house was being built. The owner's son was in the Army
and he owned the house and was stationed in Germany. Our house was finished about the time he was being discharged. His dad gave me the story on the house. Hal

JOB · Mar 7, 2012

The post I made below got put in the wrong place. Do not sell your land to the city without first knowing your rights. If you have a Law Library you can go there and the law librarian will help you research what you need to know. If you are interested I can give you statutes you need to look at. The local Cities are bigger thieves when it comes to buying property that MNDOT, here in Minnesota.

JMOR · Mar 7, 2012

(quoted from post at 10:46:47 03/07/12) The post I made below got put in the wrong place. Do not sell your land to the city without first knowing your rights. If you have a Law Library you can go there and the law librarian will help you research what you need to know. If you are interested I can give you statutes you need to look at. The local Cities are bigger thieves when it comes to buying property that MNDOT, here in Minnesota.

HEY! That's my eminent domain story, except only 2X....sorry SOBs just HAD to HAVE it for the public good of telephone service.....now a mostly empty parking lot instead of our old home place.
At least after Jerry Jones Cowboy stadium, the legislature passed some laws against use of eminent domain by governments to take land & then hand it over to private enterprise. Too late for those homeowners, but a good thing for future.
"All groups that are given condemning powers are a bunch of cheap skates. A utility company wanted land from me and threatened condemnation. My lawyer warned that a bad deal was better than a good lawsuit, because of the uncertainity of juries. I had to fight and delay to get 1/2 of what I thought it was worth, which was still 3 time their original loball offer.

KEH"

Hay hay hay · Mar 7, 2012

As a tax payer I am glad they try to get a good deal. I think there are too many sweetheart deals and over payments done by government in our state. When you buy a truck to you pay window sticker...or make an offer?

I thought we wanted the government to be good stewards of our dollars. You got what you wanted and what was fair, but you had to invest a little time and effort.

mb58 · Mar 7, 2012

As usual everyone hates a government employee. First off. No. His/her salary is not increased by how much money they "save" when buying right-of-way. The reason for the low price is because it is taxpayer dollars they are spending and are told to get the best deal they can. Do you get a low price and your neighbor often gets a higher one. Sure. Several factors effect that. One being that the neighbor understood how the game is played. He may also have called his congressman who he knows personally and had him to speak to someone at the state capital. Happens all the time. It's politics, but the government employee gets the blame. Lastly. All government agencies have a budget. They have to try and stay within the budget. Hense, low offers. None of this helps people like yourself to accept the fact that you think you were screwed by the government. And I don't blame you, but don't beat up the guy who made the offer. Beat up the congressman who served on the committee that set the rules that the guy is following. How much better life would be if people just realized that congress at all levels, state and federal, is the root of all stupidity.

jackinok · Mar 7, 2012

you would be shocked quite honestly how many folks sell at the lower price!!! see it happen all the time,folks get a letter in the mail thats from the state or some oficial type thing and they panic.add in the horror stories of emminent domain siezures and i would expect fully 75-80% sell at the lower price.its really sad for widows,non resident landowners and things but its a fact nontheless.

flying belgian · Mar 7, 2012

Ed. I respectfully dispute your comments and analogy. (When you buy a truck to you pay window sticker...or make an offer?) No, I do not pay window. I make what I think is a fair offer and he can take it or leave it. End of story. End of deal. Both parties walk away satisfied, weather I bought the truck or not. I do not have the strong arm of the law (eminent domain) to make him accept my offer. (You got what you wanted) No I did not get what I wanted. I wanted to keep my farm land. If I wanted to sell my land for the appraised value, I would have done that years ago. You can always sell your land for its appraised value. (and what was fair) Their first offer was not fair, their second offer was which was the reason for my original post. How come their first appraisal, which he said was based on the comparable area sales was so much lower then their second appraisal which was only two months later. (but you had to invest a little time and effort.) Why should I have to invest anything? I don't want to sell the land. I did not solicit them. They came to me.

flying belgian · Mar 7, 2012

It is my understanding Mn.state statute requires them to pay FAIR market value not CHEAPEST possible price. How can fair market value change by 50% in two months?

flying belgian · Mar 7, 2012

Bingo. How can I find out if that is fact or not?

mkirsch · Mar 7, 2012

It has to be on the law books. You will either have to go to the law library and look it up yourself or hire a lawyer to provide you with the statue.

JOB · Mar 7, 2012

It is also available on the computer. But it is more
fun to make uneducated comments in this thread.
Untitled URL Link

Hay hay hay · Mar 7, 2012

No one likes Emminent Domain, including me, but without it we would have no Interstates, few schools, no major infrastructure facilities.

I is always sad when some old fellow or widow decides to have a war to stop progress "save My Home", soon they will be gone and the rest of us will be forced to live with a cobbled mess.

I know....they always say..."We have lived here forever, you can't take our land" So did the Indians but today you are living on their land.

Yea, I know, you don't see it that way.

JOB · Mar 7, 2012

Edd let me tell you how cities and governments operate. You happen to own a very nice piece of property and the city decides they need it for a park. They take it through eminent domain or with the threat of eminent domain, and buy it at a decent price. In Minnesota they only buy property with a warranty deed. They use the property for a park for a few years and then decide to sell it as a commercial site, for at least 10 times what they
paid you for it. I am sure you would think that is fair. They s_rewed you for the public good. There are statutes in Minnesota to protect the citizens from that.

Another example, You own a farm on the corner of a major highway and a heavily traveled county highway. Your dept. of Transportation decides that there needs to be an interchange there. They buy 15 acres from you. After the interchange is done they only used 6 acres. They have 9 acres of your former property on the corner of two major highways. Looks like prime commercial real estate to me. I am sure you would not mind when they sell it for maybe 100 times what they paid you for it. You would get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing you did the right thing.

Ryan - WI · Mar 7, 2012

(quoted from post at 14:27:52 03/07/12) It is my understanding Mn.state statute requires them to pay FAIR market value not CHEAPEST possible price. How can fair market value change by 50% in two months?

Until they invoke PoED they can offer whatever they want for a property. It is only after they have invoked that they are required to pay a minimum of market value.

It is quite possible that the first offer was a fair or slightly low offer and the second an inflated offer. No one wants to invoke PoED. It is horrible PR and a lot of additional lawyer cost. In most cases the state will offer higher than market value just so they do not have to invoke. You just need to know how to play the game and when to accept before they get ------ and give you fair value (which in many cases is the assessed value which is often actually less than fair market value).

Keep in mind each time you agree to your tax bill you are also saying that is a fair value (not high or low) for your property. Cheating the system can come back to bite you. I saw it happen to a guy who bought a classic car once. Put down cost of purchase significantly lower than actual purchase price to save taxes. Totalled the car shortly thereafter. Insurance company gave him the recorded purchase price of the car and not a penny more.

Ryan - WI · Mar 7, 2012

(quoted from post at 21:07:06 03/07/12) Edd let me tell you how cities and governments operate. You happen to own a very nice piece of property and the city decides they need it for a park. They take it through eminent domain or with the threat of eminent domain, and buy it at a decent price. In Minnesota they only buy property with a warranty deed. They use the property for a park for a few years and then decide to sell it as a commercial site, for at least 10 times what they
paid you for it. I am sure you would think that is fair. They s_rewed you for the public good. There are statutes in Minnesota to protect the citizens from that.

Another example, You own a farm on the corner of a major highway and a heavily traveled county highway. Your dept. of Transportation decides that there needs to be an interchange there. They buy 15 acres from you. After the interchange is done they only used 6 acres. They have 9 acres of your former property on the corner of two major highways. Looks like prime commercial real estate to me. I am sure you would not mind when they sell it for maybe 100 times what they paid you for it. You would get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing you did the right thing.

In your first example I can definitely see your point. I would have to think though that if that case ever made it to a courtroom there would be some people spending some time in prison for fraud. That said, if that wasn't the original plan...

In the second, the argument could be made that the improvement they made on the property (the interchange) is what increased the value of the land. If you still owned it, the property would be farmland and valued as such.

Hay hay hay · Mar 7, 2012

Yep. And every day the Flying Belgian is flying down roads that 50 years ago were carved out of somebody elses private land. It is all about me.

JOB · Mar 8, 2012

For roads Minnesota statutes say to take what is needed for the job. And in most cases an easement will be sufficient. There is no reason to take the entire parcel and keep what is left as an investment. Or buy more land than is needed and sell off the excess at a huge profit. Or buy land with the threat of eminent domain and use the land as an investment. City and county governments are filled with thieves and there are statutes to protect the citizens from the thieves. When selling land to a any form of government agency you need to hire an attorney. A real estate attorney who knows more than simple real estate transactions. and no I am not an attorney. There are a lot of cases out there where a government agency scr ewed a citizen and was taken to court and the citizen won.

One of the last cases in Minnesota was where a school district bought a large parcel of land to be used for a school with the threat of eminent domain. The land was never used for the school. The previous owner tried to get the property back but lost the court case and the school district sold the property for six and a half million. I can't remember what the school district paid for the property but it wasn't much. If you want to look it up the case is Elon Piche Verses Independent School District NO. 621 . When selling land to a school district you need language in the deed given to them to protect you from their dishonesty. Another case that might interest you would be First American National Bank,etc verses State of Minnesota. That case was won by the citizen and involved a trunk highway.

JOB · Mar 8, 2012

I don't remember all the procedure for eminent
domain but I think that helps the citizen with
their rights. and yes it costs more but in some
cases it is worth it. The government does not like it because it spells out exactly what the land is to be used for and sort of restricts the government if they want to vere from the original intent of acquiring the land.

A farmer in Minnesota who owned several hundred
acres had to sell a couple of acres to the county
for road widening. After a lot of fighting about
the price of the land the county gave the farmer
an amount way over the tax evaluation. The
following year the farmers entire farm was valued
for tax purposes at the price he got for his land.
Did the farmer win that one? I don't think so.

mkirsch · Mar 8, 2012

When does a government ever sell a piece of property for 10X or 100X what they paid for it? That would make sense... That would help solve some of the government's cash flow problems... That would help keep our taxes down...

But no... The government USUALLY sells the property to a well-connected crony in the name of "economic development" for a token amount.

Basically, they give it away.

Dateline downtown Rochester NY... Former Midtown Plaza site, bought from the former owners by the city for some millions of TAXPAYER $$$. City spends tens of millions more TAXPAYER $$$ to clean up the asbestos and knock down most of the buildings...

I think they sold the property to the developer for $1 or $3... Some stupid amount...

Politicians are not held accountable for fiscal decisions.

If there should be a law, there should be a law that if a sitting politician doesn't make profitable business transactions in the name of the people, then that politician is responsible for the shortfall and must vacate his seat at the end of the term.

Screwing their own people

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