Electrical question

Stephen Newell · Feb 11, 2012

I'm currentyly working on a rent house that was probably built in the 1940's. While working there I've found that all the electrical outlets in the house have the polarity reversed. I know this is wrong and why. My question is what is the best way to tell my customer it needs to be fixed. She has already been out a lot of money due from damages from the previous tennant. I really hate to bring up another repair.

MarkB_MI · Feb 11, 2012

Quite frankly, the vast majority of houses over forty years old have some or all of the outlets reversed. My guess is there are more serious problems in the wiring than reversed polarity. If you just want to convince her that they're wrong, pick up a five dollar polarity tester and plug it into a few outlets and show her the indications: "See, the tester says it's bad." Now as far as convincing her that this is potentially dangerous, you're likely to have a hard time doing that unless she's getting shocked on a regular basis.

Aaron SEIA · Feb 11, 2012

Isn't the fix simply pulling the outlet and flipping the white and black wires? Can't imagine doing that even to a dozen or so outlets would cost that much.
AaronSEIA

Texasmark1 · Feb 11, 2012

I guess it was more like 60 years ago that duplex receptacles had only 2 blades the same size and there may not have had (wasn't a NEC reader at the time) any code call out for which was which.

So assuming the 40 year old house has the three prong then you are saying the wider blade is black (hot)?

Mark

IaGary · Feb 11, 2012

The outlets must not be grounded(3 prong plug) either then.

I would be more worried about that than reverse polarity. Without ground does polarity make much difference?

New wire would be required to ground properly.

Gary

MarkB_MI · Feb 11, 2012

Actually, polarity is as important on ungrounded outlets as it is on grounded ones. It is common for consumer electronics to have the chassis tied to the neutral side, which is increases the possibility of getting shocked if there's a short-circuit in the device. That's why almost all consumer electronics have polarized plugs.

Geo-TH,In · Feb 11, 2012

If they are all reversed, why can't you go back to the fuse box and reverse two wires?

Had similar problem, they were switching the neutral wire. Shocking experience.

70 years ago, there weren't 3 prong outlets. So if it's been that way for 70 years, what's the big problem?

Greg K · Feb 11, 2012

Yes she does really need to change that, but it"s hard to argue that, since it has worked for 70 years. The joy of doing this is that 70 years ago they usually used no more than the bare minimum amount of wire on these outlets. That means that there is probably just enough wire to get the outlets out of the box to get at the screws, if there is that much wire. I would try the safety argument and the potential problems with newer appliances. just my .02.

Paul from MI · Feb 11, 2012

If those receps are really old, and have both slots the same size, then reversed polarity is not an issue. HOWEVER, if the grounded(or neutral)conductor is connected to the smaller slot of an ungrounded recep, you have an increased possibility of a shock because that conductor of a polarized plug may be connected to the framework of an appliance and most certainly is connected to the shell of a lampholder. It probably is going to be a difficult sell to someone with limited resources and depending on the insulation condition of the old wiring you have a potential of creating a more difficult repair.

Stephen Newell · Feb 11, 2012

All of the outlets are nongrounded polarized receptacles, they are just wired hot to the long slot and neutral to the short one. Currently the only outlets in the house that don't have the polarity reversed are the two that were broken that I replaced. I'm kind of afraid I'm seeing the tip of the iceberg of electrical problems in this house.

John T · Feb 11, 2012

Stephen, I have to put on BOTH my engineering and attorney hats here, sorry

Id have to advise you to tell her (thats putting her on notice) and counsel her as to the possible consequences and then let her make the decision about what if anything to do. If you act in good faith and advise here then your in the clear

John T Engineer and Attorney

Kirk Grau · Feb 11, 2012

Good answer as usual John.

Have "duty" to notify (in writing if you are really worried about being hung later), but what ever the Owner decides is up to them.

Regularly see safety issues when I visit project sites, but since "Means and Methods" of construction is not my responsibility as a design professional I have no enforcement ability, and don"t want any. Sometimes I put a comment in the meeting minutes if it seems habitual or if risk is more significant (like safety harness on roof or trench shoring).

Kirk

Anonymous-0 · Feb 11, 2012

Did you check which was hot or are you going by color? I ran across a house that was wired with the white being hot and the black neutral. Makes life interesting when some is old and some is new.

Areo

John T · Feb 11, 2012

Yep my answer was a bit more legal then needed maybe buttttttttttttt once youre trained to think like a lawyer it cant be helped...... Often if a person holds themselves out to be (and esp if paid) a professional the law imposes certain duties on them and I just had to advise him to fulfill that by notifying the homeowner what he found at least and yes evidence of such needs to be memorilaized

John T Engineer and Attorney

Brad Buchanan · Feb 11, 2012

I think if it was me I would note the condition as a comment on her bill for your services and keep a copy on file.

Good luck, Brad

Stephen Newell · Feb 11, 2012

No, black was hot and white was neutral. It was just hooked up backwards.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 11, 2012

What? You still gummin this old tale? 10 hours, you could have swapped the few outlets in a 70 year old house in 20 minutes (maybe less at the panel). Not that it matters much, but the only 'nearly/potential' problem would be touching the shell in a lamp that is plugged in and the bulb changer is hugging the water pipes at the same time!
Neutral is/was never tied to any exterior metal parts of any 120v device. It is as close to 'don't care' as you are going to get!

Stephen Newell · Feb 11, 2012

I agree it's minor but it being a rent house there are liability issues. I'm concerned about a future tenent sueing my customer. On this house it would take a full day to correct the outlets. There is not enough wire to get the outlets out of the box to get to the set screws. If I'm going to have anything to do with it I'm going to make the wiring correct for the time period it was done. This would not include making the white wires hot.

showcrop · Feb 12, 2012

(quoted from post at 06:42:46 02/11/12) I guess it was more like 60 years ago that duplex receptacles had only 2 blades the same size and there may not have had (wasn't a NEC reader at the time) any code call out for which was which.

So assuming the 40 year old house has the three prong then you are saying the wider blade is black (hot)?

Mark

Hey come on! it hasn't been that long has it? (am I really that old?) I remember as a kid getting a shock from the outer part of a light socket when standing barefoot in grass.

Texasmark1 · Feb 12, 2012

John, OT sorta, but your answer to the topic question triggered this question. Being a PE requires the utmost honesty and integrity essentially forcing you to tell it to the customer the way it is, not the way you can make the most money......like you eluded to in your answer.....responsibility to the customer.

My experience (limited thank goodness) with attorneys is that they are out to win either side of a case, whatever that takes. I know that there is the BAR and they have these rules and all, but when push comes to shove.....

So how do you deal with the two simultaneously?

Thanks,
Mark

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