frozen underground water line....

Water line that feeds the stalls and the frostfree I want to run to the back yard/stalls runs under the driveway (20 ft cobblestone) between the house and the utility room where it is routed as needed. Have no idea how deep it is other than not deep enough..... No idea how old it is either as it was there when we bought the place. Replacing the whole thing isn't an option because it is buried under the house also. Don't wanna dig up the driveway either unless I absolutely have to... I have these freeze protectors that go on drinkers that are spring loaded (?) and when water expands as in freezing, they open a little for a trickle of water. then close when the water is not expanding... Gonna try one of them in a T where the water feeds into the room if the feed pipe is not busted after the freeze. Now. In case I have to replace/repair the underground pipe (3/4 galvanized), is replacing the section with PEX a good idea for undergouund? And is it OK to run a heat tape with it?

Thanks, Dave

Welder

(quoted from post at 06:00:02 02/10/12) Welder

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How's that work when you can only hook on one end?

we in wi have do deal with this all the time and i would not use pex if you had troubles before you cant put a wleder to plastic to thaw it out that is how we did it on our farm dad would get out the old welder and put one lead on the well head and the other on the pipes on the barn and soon the water was going again i dont thinc you can do that with pex

long cable

My father and I thawed out water pipes alot in the winter for farmers. Like the others said,..hook your ground to one end of the pipe by the well head or where you can get to it before it goes under the drivewy,..and hook the other end (the lead)to where it is accessable by a water outlet in the barn. Open up the facuet in the barn so you can see it flow when the pipe starts to thaw. Make sure your cables are hooked upbefore you start your welder so you won"t arc through the water pipe.
Here"s the welder we used to thaw out water pipes. We had 150ft of cable and big "C" clamps to attach the cables to the water pipe.
Good luck,
Leo

You must be able to connect welder to pipe in two places so the current will pass through the pipe and heat it up.

I'd go with the welder. Have to dig down to the pipe if it isn't accessible at one end.

Just make sure you get the polarity right. I assume it makes a difference, because I read a news story a few years ago when we had a cold snap- Coupla guys were thawing pipes in Seattle with a welder, going around from door to door. Did one house, and when he went to the lady to get the money, she balked. He yelled under the house, "She don't wanna pay. Reverse the polarity!" Lady says "OK, OK, here's your d@mn money." and stomped back into the house.

The odds are very good that no damage has happened. THe water freezes along the pipe and does not need to expand the pipe unless cought between two positive frozen or valve shutoff locations.
The best solution (opinion) would be to insulate the ground over the affected area with hay or grass and a tarp, or tyveck. 100mm would do placed about 1.5m wide over the pipe location.
It could take several days to thaw, but would be cheap. The other method is to use the welder as below. I would consider insulating the ground permanently with earth exposure rated foam at about 600mm down and 600 wide. Putting a metal shield over it where the driveway is would be good to prevent the foam from being crushed by traffic.
I would not use heat tape inderground unless it was in PVC surrounding the pipe and accessible to replace or repair. Frostex heat tape might be OK, but it is pricy.
Jim

my .02.. pex is good,it does have the rather unique ability to freeze without splitting,BUT,(there always is one isnt there),if it freezes it cant be thawed either. Any non conductive pipe would have this problem of course.If this section of pipe freezing was a cronic every winter problem,and you didnt go to the trouble of correcting it properly, or couldnt get by without water in those places until it naturally unfroze,i would suggest going back with galvanized.Simply because its easiest to unthaw.If this was only something that happened once every few years ,and you could do without it for the time needed to unthaw pex would be a real asset.Obvious solution would be to replace it correctly of course...heres a tip ,that may swing you over to pex if you need to replace a line under a lot of obstructions.simply cut your galv and rethread it on each side of your drive or whatever. couple your quest unto one end and your tractor on the other of the galv and simply pull it through as you pull old pipe out.galv is quite a bit larger diameter than pex and it will follow it right in.whole lot faster/cheaper than boring under.of course it wont cure your freezing problem but if you have a leak under concrete its a good thing to know. About the only way to get it deeper under an obstruction without tearing it out is boring,and the machines can be rented cheply lots of places.its not hard to do unless your in rock ,but you generally do need a fairly large hole on each side to work in.so it requires extra digging.one last little word of caution though,if you DO decide to pull a pipe in,stay away from the end of that old pipe until it starts moving!it will spear you if it breaks loose suddenly!i realized this was a good plan as soon as i woke up with no front teeth when i was pulling a gas line into a basement under a sidewalk!LOL

I think the weather there is similar to western Washington- we bury pipes at 2 feet, because temp rarely gets below 20F in winter, and then only overnight and warms up during the day- consequently, no ground frost.

But every few years, we get a "cold snap" of artic air. We've never had it freeze pipes underground here, but they've had it for weeks.

Since its a rare occurence, I wouldn't dig everything up, insulate it, etc- better to just live with it. I'd just let it be, and use hoses until it thaws. And next summer, put a T in each end, with an air fitting on one end and a valve on the other- when you get a cold snap, shut off the water, and blow out the line. Use hoses until it warms up again.

do not run a heat tape under ground.they are not rated for underground use.IT wouldnt do any good anyway,if the earth gets cold enough to freeze a pipe,your not going to heat it up with a heat tape! mighty big heat sink.

I'll tell you how we replaced one that runs under the road two years ago. We ran 2 inch plastic right over the old pipe. Used water pressure hooked to it to disolve the dirt around it and slid it right over,then dug it up on the other side and pulled the old 3/4 inch galvanized right out. Slid 3/4 inch black plastic pipe back through it. Now the 2 inch leaves an air space around the 3/4 inch. Not that it ever froze,it was down there about 6 feet,but if you're replacing yours,it really should be inside of another larger pipe,at the very least,where you drive over it.

"Reverse the polarity?" HA!

In the olden days when this technique was common, the welders farmers typically had were AC. Alternating current. There was no polarity!

Pipes under drive ways freeze easy.Small steamers are used here on plastic pipes.I have thawed lines with a small submersible pump in a pail of hot water and a length of 5/16 tubing.In effect a hot water enama will thaw frozen pipes;Ive used this method on frozen sewer lines.a welder works fine if you can get at both ends of the metal pipe.It was common to bring a large copper wire from pipes between poultry houses.It was stapled to a 4 foot cedar post so you could find it in snow.I put 2 heat tapes on a barn water pipe that supplied water to the cow tie up.The tapes run 10 feet underground.Been there since 1966 with no trouble.Only one tape is plugged in ,the other is a spare.I have used many methods to thaw frozen pipes and to keep them from freezing.Where a pipe cant be buried deep because of ledge an air compressor system can be used to blow the water out of the pipe after the stock is watered.My barn line will drain back into the house cellar if I shut off the water valve ln the cellar and open a drain valve plus open the barn faucet.When the power goes out the line wont freeze.

I have had heat tape running 10 feet under ground since 1966.I put 2 tapes on the pipe, only one is plugged in.The second is there as a spare.Never say never.

This sounds like the story of The Deacon and The Skunk.Deacon had a large amount of butter stored in his cellar.A skunk had gotten into the cellar.The Deacon went to see a fellow who could handle skunks with out getting sprayed.Fellow went down into the cellar and came up holding the skunk by the tail.deacon said how much to remove the skunk?Fellow said 50 cents.Deacon said he wouldnt pay that much for a few minutes work.Fellow threw the skunk down the stairs,skunk sprayed.That spoiled the butter.The pipe would heat up,AC or DC.I will caution you to open the faucet wheh thawing pipes with a welder .Fellow I worked for was heating a faucet in his barn.The solder melted and the steam pressure blew the faucet across the barn.