o/t guns safes or safes in general

I am looking at gun safes and also those for home use. I have a question that I hope someone can answer for me concerning the fire ratings. If a safe has a fire rating of 1200 deg for 30 minutes, how much damage will the contents suffer in 1 hour? what I'm really asking is it worth the extra cost for one that is rated 1400 deg for 70 minutes vs one rated 1200 deg for 30 minutes? Would guns be damaged badly by the over extended time in a fire? How about a gun safe vs a household safe? I'm thinking about buying a safe that I can keep both guns and important documents in. Thanks for any advice. Rick

Just plain out....if there is a situation where the fire department cannot get there right away (think Joplin Mo tornado) that safe could be burried in burning embers for some time.

Rick

When I was on the fire dept. we had several total fires that the people had "fire safes". I never saw one of them that saved much besides heavy papers like deeds and such. Think about how a fire is going to create hot coals and where they are going to lay.

If I had a fire safe I would put it in the basement. Unless it is a total fire then most times the floor will not be completely burn and will keep the coals off of the safe.

I personally just have a regular safe but it is in a storm room built into the basement that has a concrete ceiling. I built it thirty years ago when we had several tornadoes around here. I saw people that where killed when the house fell into the basement.

Another problem with most safes you buy is that they are not really that big inside. I would have to have several to hold all of my guns.

I personally think that a safe deposit box is the best for serious papers and valuables. Then use good gun cabinets in rooms not likely to burn. Like a basement or cellar.

No one can say. It would depend on the contents.

If it's a pile of silver coins - no damage. If you have computer backups they may not survive the 30 minutes. An older all steel and wood shotgun "may" not suffer any damage - the typical new Mossberg or Remington with some plastic parts will probably be ruined.

Take a look at the pins, type of locking mechanisms and how to put it in your home that will add to it's security of your valuables.


Take a look.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

Also, you can put a cheaper document firebox inside a larger safe for added protection.

I have always thought of gun safes as a place to store my guns to protect against theft, or keeping them away from children.

I dont think the fire rating is worth a hoot. I think a regular gun might still have the metal intact, but the wood stocks will probably be ruined or charred.

as someone else mentioned about papers, you might try putting a smaller fire safe for papers inside the gun safe. But if you really want it safe, take it to a bank safe deposit.

Gene

If you get a real hot fire, I am not sure any safe would survive as all those hot ashes pile into a basement.

I bought mine based on the number of bolts in the door and the size. The more bolts you get, typically the fire rating goes up with it. Buy way bigger than you need.

My two cents.
Rick

You need to search fire ratings for safes on Yahoo or google and educate yourself. I dont think that the ratings given by the manf. mean much, or basically they will lie. Unless your guns and documents are encased inside a 2" wall of sand with steel to hold the sand I dont think they would last in any real home fire.

Most gun safes with a fire rating don't have much more than a door seal and a layer of drywall inside. If the fire dept. can't get your house put out within the 30 min. then I doubt you would save much. If you look at a commercial document safe the walls are about 4 inches thick all the way around and cost several times more and weigh thousands of pounds instead of hundreds of pounds.

A gun safe provides security against smash and grab theft and a small quick fire. A pro will bring a portable plasma cutter and go through the wall of the safe, not the thick door. Some will take the whole safe to another location and work on it there. A thief doesn't want to spend lots of time working in your house.

The safes are a good investment, they just have limitations.

If your state or province requires you to have a metal safe, got to get one. Ammunition was stored in wooden containers for 500 years for a good reason- that no one wants to hear about. Wood burns slower than metal heats. On the other hand.... water, from the tens of thousands of gallons the pumper or hydrant will let the guys hose in there... well... high carbon steel, hardwood gunstocks and papers are just as bad off as if they burnt. Just make it hidden and theif proof, and keep the rest of your house safe as possible.

Unless you have an extensive and expensive collection, or the firearms have a sentimental value to you, I would think the fire rating is not that terribly important. Your fire insurance will cover the loss. Loss due to theft is the reason most people by safes.

Fire rating on safe HAS TO BE TESTED. They cannot just say its good for 1200 for 30 min. They are either tested by the UL or NFPA. Typicaly depending on if your fire dept is paid or volunteer and how far away you live from them, your lookin at an average of 5-10 mins at least from time of call. A typical house fire can range from 1200 to 1800 degrees depending on the varaibles. Also even after the fire is out you still have a good bit of heat left and a lot of water and steam damage. So that bein said the extra you spend may or may not be worth the money in my opinion because of the dynamics of fire and the diff variables that affect fires behavior. Safes are better than just a metal or wood gun cabinet for protecting your guns/valuables. Also check with your insurance company on your guns. Some companies require a special rider policy for guns. Myself bein a firefighter for 18 years i bought the best rated safe I could. One for theft and two that safes help. I wouldnt say they dont fail in a fire but your chances of your guns being undamaged in a fire are a lot better. Also if you are considering putting it in a basement I would poor a raised pad to sit it on. In the event you have a fire (hopefully you never do) but all the water there usin is most likely a good bit gonna end up in the basement.

It you are truly concerned about the fire endurance rating, look around and buy an older "real" safe. Some are incredibly heavy - but also more durable then the "el cheapos" I see all over the place at a consumer level.

I've had a problem with safe gun storage when I'm away from home. My concerns are fire AND theft. After seeing how cheaply any safes I looked at were - I looked around for a "real" safe. It didn't take long to find one. I picked up a Mosler that a local hospital kept drugs in. Probably a 50-60 year-old safe. 6 feet tall and 3 feet wide. Has a four-hour 1700F fire-rating. Paid $500 for it. Worst part was moving it. We took the door off to make it a little lighter and my wife and I could not even carry the door. I suspect it weighs 1/2 a ton. Needs a concrete floor - or a heavily reinforced floor. It was quite a project to get it into my house - with come-alongs, skids, etc.

Once inside, I looked online for instructions on how to change the combination. I was amazed at how much safe-info this is on the Web. I've got 40 guns in it now -along with some other valuables. When I had the door apart to change the combo - I found that it is almost completely filled with some sort of concrete. No wonder we couldn't carry it.

In regard to the fire ratings - it's done with items like wood and paper. If a safe is rated for 30 minutes at 1200 degrees F - that means in a hour -some items get destroyed. So if fire is your concern, you have to guess how long the part of the house could burn (where the safe is) before completely gone. I suspect much depends on how high, or low you have the safe in the house. I have ours in a single-story addition so I know it can never burn for four hours. Not enough combustibles there to last that long.

Actually most home owners policies have limits on specific coverage - like guns, or jewelry, or other expensive items beyond the "usual". If you have a $200,000 Monet hanging on your wall your home owners policy may only cover $300.


I know my "basic" policy was limited to $1500 in firearms - that covers my AR10 and part of its scope. I had have a rider put in the policy to cover firearms up to $10,000 for both fire and theft.

Most theives are not pros but its not uncommon for a couple meth heads to carry a gun safe out the back door to a waiting pickup. Its amazing that those skinny dudes can carry so much but it happens all the time.

My safe is bolted to the concrete floor and concrete wall. A really good wrecking bar might break it free but no need to make it easy for them.

My homeowners policy only covers $5000 in firearms, if you want more then you have to get a rider for more guns.

What do you recommend as the "best" firesafe for guns/papers/jewelry?

I dont know what the best company is. I meant best bein the highest fire rating i could buy and you want one with the vault style locking device. I have a safe that is rated at 1700 for 45min. Out of all my searching I did before I bought mine Liberty and Misty Morn seemed to be the highest quality and offer the best protection. Im happy with mine except the thing weighs close to 800lbs and not moved very easily at all. I can definatly say I would not trust the little sentury locking safes most people buy to keep documents and jewlery in that they put in there closets or under there beds. They dont seem to hold up very good and with a screw driver and hammer and a little effort you can be into it. The reality of it is that if the fire is bad enuff you still run a good risk of your things getttin damaged but just maybe not ruined. Ive seen in most cases that as long as your safe is not directly in the fire or the room where the heaviest fire was the things in the safe were salvagable. As to what the fire rating was on there safes I never really had time after the fire to see what it was, but always curious to kno. Safes are rated in a fire chamber and are directly hit with a continuos flame and the rating comes by how long and at what temp the safe started to fail. Whether it being the contents in the safe first start getting damaged or by when the safe itself starts to fail. Sometimes the safe itself will not fail but do to convection the contents start getting damaged. Dont know if that helps any or not.I by no means am an expert. Just what Ive seen in experiences and my searching for a safe for my guns.

The best safe is Sturdy Safe. American made with US steel (and a lot of it).

The only other would be the AMSEC BF series safe.
sturdy safe

Something to consider is that in a house fire, water damage is as likely as damage from heat. A house in our neighborhood burned down a few years ago, and they lost everything except some stuff that was stored in Rubbermaid containers in the basement. Everything else either burned up or was destroyed by water from the fire engines.