Electric rates

In a previous post, someone asked me what my electrics rates were. I was only able to find some of 2011 electric bills. I put them on spread sheet. As you can see, they vary from $.09/kw-hr to $.12/kw-hr. Where I live, the more electricity you use the cheaper it gets. I have a 2200 sq ft total electric home, with simple electric base board heat in each room. I believe the best heat source is insulation, the best windows and doors you can buy. I also believe, you can't over insulate and stop air infiltration. If you have an older home with air infiltration, you will have extremely dry air in the winter, along with static electricity and nose bleeds. Here are some of my old 2011 electric bills. Before anyone jumps on me for having too much insulation, I built my home 20 years ago and there is no mold, mildew, or a sick building syndrome.

Duke energy W. Central Indiana 2011-12
date KW-hr Cost$ $/kw-hr
01-01-11 2197 $203.65 $0.09
02-08-11 2617 $241.85 $0.09
03-09-11 2606 $237.10 $0.09
04-07-11 996 $105.20 $0.11
05-06-11 855 $97.28 $0.11
06-07-11 687 $82.53 $0.12
08-10-11 759 $90.39 $0.12
09-08-11 962 $ 107.91 $0.11
01-12-12 1481 $151.13 $0.10

Having difficulty getting the columns to line up.

Hope this helps anyone trying to decide on what is the cheapest way to heat their home.

I'm not a fan of expensive heat pumps, or high teck gas/propane furnaces, because of their costs, life expectancy, and maintenance cost.

I am a fan of lots of insulation. I use my old gas furnace blower to move the air for my 12 seer central air.

George

Using a fuel cost comparison site, your 11 cents kw vs my 96% efficient LP with LP at $1.74 I come up with $3061 for electric heat and $1911 for my LP. Thats almost $1200 per year cheaper. My furnace should run 15-20 years with no real problems. If the fuel costs stay relative then I come out at least $18,000 ahead. That should buy me a new furnace in 15 years. I will agree with the best insulation, windows, etc you can buy.
AaronSEIA

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Tell me how much I could save by converting over to a 97% LP? I know a person who has a 97% LP in an old home without insulation, good windows and doors and he spends $500/mo to heat his home.

My point is if you crunch the numbers, there is no way I could pay for a 97% gas furnace in 15 years. Not to mention, paying for an expensive geo heat pump that may not even last 15 years.

A better way to look at numbers is to look at both your electric bill + your fuel bill for the year.

If you have wood heat, you still need to look at your furnace or boiler cost and add in the expense of cutting, splitting, and hauling the wood. Wood isn't free.

Want to save money, INSULATE, INSULATE AND INSULATE SOME MORE.

Just my humble opinion.

George

You are certainly correct that stopping heat loss makes more sense than looking for cheaper energy or higher efficiency furnaces. My power meter is "time of use" which vary up to 10.8 cents. However the actual kw cost with all the surcharges and taxes averages approx 17 cents. Peak rate is over 22 cents. Get this, we have a surplus of base load generating capacity. We have to de-rate nucler units and bypass water around the turbines during off peak and spring/fall. Base load power has been under 3 cents/kw paid to nuc,hydro and thermal. Green Power "must run" and gets 80.2 cents for solar, 16.5 for gas turbine and 13 5 for wind turbines. We have got caught having to pay Quebec. NY,Ohio & Michigan to take surplus power.

I can 't make a case in $ per season heating .To purchase a high efficiency furnace and have it pay back before the furnace requires replacement.

BTY, my electric rates included all hidden costs including sales tax.

My dates on my bills are the due dates. My electric bill is for the dates between the 15 th of each month. EX. If the bill I posted was due on 02-08-11 the electricity I used for Dec 15 to Jan 15.

Also if you want to crunch numbers, you should use my $.09/kw-hr, which are my winter time rates.

Keep in mind, the more electricity I use the cheaper it gets.

Sorry to hear you are getting hosed by your power company.

George

B&D is spot on. Here in Ontario we have "time of use" (make governemnt rich) pricing. Ranging(I think) from 6.8 to 10.8cents/kwh but by the time you apply delivery charges, retirement charges, taxes a host of other charges the price comes out at about double so 13.6 to 21.6cents/kwh. Government is wasting billions rebuilding nuclear reactors that we already have too many of only to waste another 100million+ to get rid of it. SOmebody failed supply management 101. Not that you want to be under on it, but damn.

George, I also am a Duke customer, but in Ohio, and over here, the more you use, the higher the rate gets.

Glad I don't live in Ohio. I didn't realize how cheap my rates are compared to else where.

Re: Electric rates Buickanddeere,
George . . .

For some reason I thought you were in Canada, senior moment I guess.

Here in Ontario we have a Voodoo way of doing our Hydro (COSTS) Rats . . . Jan
1)on-peak kWh .10.8c . .$ 28.34
2) mid-peak kWh .09.2c . .$ 26.07
3) off-peak kWh .06.2c . .$ 56.60
4) Delivery . . . . . . . $ 83.21
5) Regulatory Charges . . $ 9.74
6) Debt Retirement Charge $ 9.41 (Ontario $ $ miss management)
7) HST . . . . . . . . . .$ 27.74 (Sales tax)
Sentinel light (on street our choice)
8) Power @ $ 07.1 kWh . . $ 2.77
9) Delivery . . . . . . . $ 4.01
10) Regulatory Charges . . $ 0.50
11) Debt Retirement Charge $ 0.25 (Ontario $ $ miss management)
12) Sentinel light Rental $ 7.10
13) HST . . . . . . . . . $ 1.90 ( Sales tax)
total $257.64
Clean energy Benefit . . -$ 24.96
New total $232.68

Heat with Propane on cool/warm days wood on cooold days.

I can't find the amount for the invoice, Paper, postage or meter rental charges. (PUN)

Here is a copy of last months heating bill for a 1550 sq. ft house with a walkout basement facing the west. The house was unoccupied at the time of the bill so usage is lower than normal. It has a Geo Thermo heat and cooling system. Total cost of the system including the duct work for this new home was $19,000. Federal tax credit will return 30% of that back to the new owners for a refund of $5700. Net cost of the system will be $13,300. It is comparable to a new high efficient furnace and heat pump. Also, the house now qualifies for a SD property tax reduction over the next 4 years. The 1st $50,000 of valuation is not taxed the first years and then it is prorated the next 3. Electricity is at a reduced rate also on a seperate meter. Also, the geo system heats the hot water for in home use and lowering your hot water costs. The second bill is for the warmest month of last year for the cooling costs. The house was kept at a constant 70 degrees. It was unoccupied at the time so there was not much going in or out but there were no window coverings so it gets the full effect of the sunshine. The bill has 2 seperate charges. The residential is for lights and such and the second is listed as Residential Heat Pump and is on a seperate meter. That is the heat and cooling part of the bill.

I'm compairing apples to apples. Even at the 9 cents, that figures out to $27 per 1 millon BTU's of heat, where my LP at $1.74 is $20 per million BTU's. That figures out to about $500 more per year to heat the exact same house. Find a fuel cost page and do your own crunching. Electric is second most expensive behind fuel oil. You use whatever source of heat you want, but don't think it's the cheapest cause you get a discount for using a lot of it.
AaronSEIA

(quoted from post at 09:08:47 01/19/12) In a previous post, someone asked me what my electrics rates were. I was only able to find some of 2011 electric bills. I put them on spread sheet. As you can see, they vary from $.09/kw-hr to $.12/kw-hr. Where I live, the more electricity you use the cheaper it gets. I have a 2200 sq ft total electric home, with simple electric base board heat in each room. I believe the best heat source is insulation, the best windows and doors you can buy. I also believe, you can't over insulate and stop air infiltration. If you have an older home with air infiltration, you will have extremely dry air in the winter, along with static electricity and nose bleeds. Here are some of my old 2011 electric bills. Before anyone jumps on me for having too much insulation, I built my home 20 years ago and there is no mold, mildew, or a sick building syndrome.

Duke energy W. Central Indiana 2011-12
date KW-hr Cost$ $/kw-hr
01-01-11 2197 $203.65 $0.09
02-08-11 2617 $241.85 $0.09
03-09-11 2606 $237.10 $0.09
04-07-11 996 $105.20 $0.11
05-06-11 855 $97.28 $0.11
06-07-11 687 $82.53 $0.12
08-10-11 759 $90.39 $0.12
09-08-11 962 $ 107.91 $0.11
01-12-12 1481 $151.13 $0.10

Having difficulty getting the columns to line up.

Hope this helps anyone trying to decide on what is the cheapest way to heat their home.

I'm not a fan of expensive heat pumps, or high teck gas/propane furnaces, because of their costs, life expectancy, and maintenance cost.

I am a fan of lots of insulation. I use my old gas furnace blower to move the air for my 12 seer central air.

George

Click to expand...

I added up my last four months of utility bills just last week. I installed a heat pump when I built my house in 2004, but after using it for a couple of winter months I found out that using the "emergency heat" setting (an 80% efficient natural gas backup) was much cheaper. I have used just gas since then, even in mild temps. I use the heat pump for AC in the summer. Anyway gas and electric for our farm and 3200 sq ft home the past 12 months came to $127 a month....that is less than we pay for cable, phone and internet. I over insulated in the attic, but a lot of the savings comes from using our gas fireplace to heat the great room/kitchen area and keeping the rooms we don't use shut up. I also positioned the house so that we get maximum benefit from the winter sun.

Add up the cost of purchasing that $ LP furnace, regular
service , out of warranty repairs and replacement. That is a
real cost to heat the property in addition to fuel or
electricity.Also you are quoting gross btu's. Electricity is 100%
efficient. LP ,oil, pellets, grain and wood etc pump how many
% out the stack? 20-30% is common. Also figure the cost of
heating make up combustion air that just goes up the stack.

The fuel cost calculator I used was 9 cent electric at 100%, $1.74 LP at 96%. That gives a gross BTU difference of $500 per year in favor of LP. Since I want forced air whole house air conditioning, I'm already going to have the blower, ducts, and A coil. If I figure $2,000 for the furnace part vs the A/C only, thats 4 years for a payback. Furnace has a 10 year warranty, I still contend 15 or 20 year life (or more). So I can pocket 6 years at $500 for $3,000. I'm just curious, for those on electric heat, how do you cool your house?
AaronSEIA

Aaron, to make this an apple to apple comparison let's do the math. It cost me about $600 for wire, thermostats and baseboard heaters to convert my natural gas home into total electric. My smallest electric bill was $82.53 for 687 kw-hrs. This was a month where I wasn't heating or cooling. Look at my largest month $241.85 for 2617 kw-hrs. That was a heating month. The difference between largest to smallest is about 2000 kw-hrs at an increased cost of $160. That's about 6 M BTU's of heat. So, if I were to switch over to a 97% gas furnace, I would expect to save $7/Million BTU's. That's 6 Million BTU's times $7/M = $42 savings for my worst month.

If I switch over to gas I may save $200/year. Look at the cost to covert to a heat pump, 97% gas, or a woodburner, it would never pay me to switch. Do the Math.

You may be able to save more because you may live in a colder climate, have higher electric rates, or you may not have the same energy efficient home.

You also need to factor in that I'll never have to have a service call to fix my furnace, which only goes out on weekends, late at night, or on a holiday.

I have electric heat in my rentals. One place was built in the 50's. I've only had to replace 2 $15 thermostats, which I did myself.

You also need to factor in how much electricity your furnace uses each month. Bet that will make the difference even less than $7/M BTU's.

I will agree. Your cost per BTU may be about 20% less, but look at your total investment, service calls, filters, and life of the furnace. It may save you money, but it would cost me more that I would ever get back.

I think this is more apple to apple, don't you?

George

AC coil evaporator coil in the 20KW electric
furnace plenum. Compressor and condenser outside.
Probably upgrading to a air to air heatpump this
coming spring. The old AC system was mickey moused
in a very long time ago and has problems.

You mean to say they have not gone to 6 decimal places.
I pay $0.238410 per kwh 7am-11pm Mon-Fri.Peak
.098820 other OffPeak.
Service to property $48.71 for 78days.
Plus 10% Goods & Services Tax.
It will be increasing because Parliament has passed a Carbon Tax Bill, which will go to the producers of the filth.Totally disregarding USA Canada, China, India and others that have not done it, Have to be out there, stuff the consequences.
They just installed a smart meter which allows them to read my meter from their office,[meter readers redundant] which I have to pay for.
The benefits to me is that I can read my electricity usage and if high, turn the electricity off disregarding the fact 2 freezers are electric.That benefits me.Today it is 30c [86F] inside.

If you have lost your provider , look in Australia.
By years end, you could say:
Australia. Foreign owned.
not just electricity.

$1.74 for propane is unheard of cheap compared to Central NY where I live. My provider is the cheapest around at $2.75 a gallon. My monthly electric cost is similiar, it averages 10-11 cents per KWH with all taxes and fees. I guess regional demographics can play a huge role in heating/cooling costs.
Rich

I set up my electric bill on a spread sheet and rounded to 2 places. Did this to include all fees and sales tax.

Not sure that others are including everything like rent on the LP tanks, deliver charge, sales tax, and the cost of the electricity to run furnace.

30 years ago I had an oil furnace. It has a 250w ingition transformer that ran all the time, a gun motor and a blower motor. Never measured the amps the furnace used. I estimate it used between 1500w and 2000w.

I know a person who heats 26ft x 34ft part of her house with an 8 ft electric baseboard heater which is 2000 watts.

I still have forced air for A/C only. With electric baseboard, I never have a cold room. Each room has it's own thermostat.

40+ years ago I worked my way through college working for a steel mill in northern Indiana as a HVAC mechanic. My father and brothers were in the HVAC business. My youngest sister and her husband have a very successful HVAC business in Northern Indiana. Parts are very expensive to replace the brain boxes on the new Hi-tec furnaces and heat pumps, not to mention the variable speed motors may only be bought from the company that made the unit and they are very expensive. Many people who buy the new furnaces and A/C also buy service contracts, BIG BUCKS!

Bet these costs are'nt factored into the their calculations.

I'M ALL FOR KEEPING IT SIMPLE STUPID, KISS!

Cheapest investment and cheapest maintance.

George

From propane101.com
If one gallon of propane is equal to 27 kWh of electricity, then we can compare the costs of these fuels directly by looking at the price per unit (propane gallons or kilowatt hours) and finding the price difference. This can easily be done by looking at your electric bill and multiplying the price per kWh by 27. The resulting number will be a dollar figure that will be either greater than or less than the price of a gallon of propane. For example, if you are paying 12¢ per kWh, the electrical cost comparison figure to a gallon of propane will be $3.24 (.12 x 27 = 3.24). Electricity is cheaper than propane if propane is selling for $3.24 per gallon and propane is cheaper than electricity if it is selling for less than $3.24 per gallon.

My electric rate is $0.075 and propane cost me $2.69 a gallon this year. Propane would have to be below $2.00 per gallon to make it cheaper than my electric rate.