Are you putting one over on the Government ???

Just reading the post below about Government run amok and some of the replies got me to thinking. I understand the guy was in all actuality doing something illegal, wether he really intended to or not, and got caught. After all I've had to go through to get my truck legal all I can say is I say too bad for him he mouthed off and got himself in trouble. Saddly when it comes to the commercial side of things they do their best to make it all so complicated that there is no way anyone can truely keep up with all of the regulations. I mean seriously where do we draw the line when it comes to the difference in a business and something someone does as a hobby to make a few dollars. Heck why not go ahead and make little Suzy get a business license, a tax ID, liability insurance, a restaurant license, etc, etc, etc before she is allowed to set up a lemonaid stand. Granted if this guy makes his living buying and selling cars then he should have known he was/is illegal and I have no pitty on him. But if he was simple doing what many of you guys do, by buy a tractor/car, fixing it up in your spare time, and eventually selling it, then every one of you that does that is as guilty as this guy....You just haven't gotten caught yet.

That leads me to this question. How many of ya'll have an SUV that is titled as an auto and runs a standard license plate? I know the laws on this may vary from state to state but here in NC a standard 'auto' plate is supposed to be good up to 4,000 lbs. In other words if I put on on my pickup and put a trailer behind it I better not weight over 4,000 lbs otherwise I'm over the tagged weight and am illegal. To get anything over 4,000 lbs you have to get a commercial plate. The difference in cost is that here the standard plate costs about $29 per year and the heavier commercial plates go up from there. My pickup weights less than 4,000 lbs but I still run a 7,000 plate so I can tow a trailer. For that weight the plate is around $54 per year. Funny thing many of the new SUV's weight over 4,000 lbs from the factory. That being the case why are they allowed to be licensed as an auto and run a standard auto plate when in all actuality they are running as illegal as any other vehicle that would be considered running over it's tagged weight. Basically I'm just curious as to how many of ya'll 'private individuals' are being allowed to 'flaunt' the weight laws ((((be it due to the state allowing it or because it is illegal but you know DMV really isn't going to weight 'Mom's taxi' so why bother))) while us commercial guys pay the BIG bucks because of what our vehicles weight??? And I say big bucks not just because the tag for my pickup is nearly twice what it is for a heavier SUV, but also because of the nearly $800 a year I pay for the tag and all other assicuated 'commercial fees' on my service truck, along with another $1,200 a year to keep a million dollar liability policy on it because it's a heavy commercial vehicle.

Like I said, given the tone of many of the remarks made about someone that was technically doing something wrong that in reality should not actually be wrong, I was just curuious as to how many others out there are in the same boat and will admit it???

InSD the weight of the vehicle is on the title. It is inserted in there when you first register and title it. They (DMV) get it from charts they have. How long would it take you to find out the weight of a 2009 Buick Century 4 Door? Or 2009 Ford Exhibition?

Not me Wayne, I am in your boat and its a hard one to row at times...

Ok, that I can understand, but think about it a little further. If the tag is good for 4,000 lbs, and the vehicle weights 3,500 lbs empty then it stands to reason if you put 4 adults weighing in at 200lbs apiece (((and with the obisity problem in the USA nowdays that's a very, very easy thing to do)))) then it's going to be over it's tagged weight by 300 lbs. Add in any other passangers, any luggage, etc, etc and your talking a true overweight vehicle.

Personally the first weight ticket I got in my service truck for being over about 400 lbs on my rear axel. I'm tagged for 38,000lbs so I wasn't even over my tagged weight, just NC's limit of 20,000 per axel because of position my load was sitting in. Unfortunatly regardless of the tagged weight the axel weight limit varies widely across the country so you can be legal in one place and then illegal when you cross a state line...all because of something you often have no control over.

Basically what Trooper or DMV officer is going to pull over a car and give the driver a ticket even though the car weights more than it's legally tagged for just because of the weight of the passangers???? You know as well as I do it't not going to happen....But they have no problem pulling over and weighing a commercial truck and giveing a ticket over something the driver may have had absolutely no control over such as placement of a load. Now tell me where is any of that fare to those of us that pay dearly in an attempt pay our share based on what out vehicle weighs and to stay legal??? Why not ticket Joe and his four overweight buddies rolling around in their Coupe-Deville when they are just as illegal when it comes to being over the weight they tagged their vehicle for as any commercial driver would be???

I doubt you'll get many admissions.
It was several years ago now I was researching regulations on line in advance of lengthening the box on my dump truck. I stumbled across a big notice on the NYSDOT website about NY's adoption of USDOT regulations. All I had to do was get a DOT#. It was easy enough once I figured how to answer the questions correctly on the computer. But it was clear that eventually, any commercial vehicle, anything over 10000# GVW, and virtually any pickup towing a trailer was going to at least need to get a DOT#. I started asking around and no one knew anything about this, even my state senator. Bureacracy at its best!
And thinking of correct plates, I think there are FOUR possiblities on my 1/2 ton pickup!

You not putting something over on the goverment,the goverment is putting something over on you.

For what I pay in taxes, I"m not getting over on enough. Fire all the sob"s & let "em try getting a job! ^P3

My Ky. farm tags say 38000# on all my trucks, 12, 34 and 1 ton. I try to stay under that!

4000 is odd, in my state anything under 7500 lbs gross wt qualifies for a regular vehicle tag and any bumper hitch trailer thats hooked up with a ball isn't counted as part of the gross wt.

Was that a Freudian slip?

Aaron

I did something illegal... Well, maybe. I bought a F350 that weighed 6500 lbs. It was a one ton so GVW was around 8800. State requires B class tags on anything over 8000. I was going to have to pay for commercial non renewable (expensive) tags. I never intended to haul anything in it but there it was. The first guy wouldn't transfer title over due to lack of notary signature (which by law wasn't required). He also wanted to tax me on the supposed value he calculated (10,100) and have me get B tags. The next lady I talked to (after presenting her the notarized bill of sale) said all of it was bunk, taxed me on the sale price ($1000) and sold me standard tags. She did warn me that I was not tagged to carry GVW and I was responsible for adhering to the law. That was the extent of my unlawfullmess. Well that and these prohibited good looks...

Aaron

this is going to vary by state.

here in florida, you can tag 25999 and down as personal..

anything that is 6000 or over though does renew callander year instead of birthday.. so my 350 and 450 fords 1 and 1.5 tn, both renew december vs my b-day.. but they are non comercial plates and ins.

and in fl.. you can tag-up your vehicle. IE.. register more weight than gvrw..

they even ask you if you want to increase your weight when you renew. all it costs is money for the extra #'s up to the 25999 limit..

I don't really care what I might be doing illegally because the federal and state governments do not mind stealing out of my paycheck every month, that is exactly what a progressive income tax is, theft.

Time to find a new state to live in. 3/4 ton Chevy and I pull a 30ft camper, 18,000# plates $65.00 a year, double the normal 12,000# plate cost. And you get a 1000# over an axle per law(just not over your plate)

I bought a 15 passenger E-250 van "bus" to work out of. I told them it was no longer a bus. They didn't care. They go by the VIN in Ky. If they have the VIN they should know what type of vehicle it is. Unless you seriously modified it.

The rules are the rules. You think it is bad now you should have been around before deregulation.

The DOT do not care about weight and tags when it comes to personal. The SUV that is over weight per the tag can still carry this weight safely. Your state just needs to update its system to allow for the bigger personal cars of today.

But cross the line and make money at it and you are in a totally different ball game. The DOT has to draw the line in the sand somewhere and I can tell you no matter where they draw it somebody will be pi$$ed off. So make money; even if that means fixing up one tractor a year it is still making money; and you fall under DOT rules.

I think most have the mindset that I can drive my wife's Toyota; I can drive a one ton with a gooseneck trailer. Follow a U-Haul truck and see how true that really is.

Like anything else trucks are being regulated. Try and buy some freon for your house A-C; Do some electrical or plumbing work at your neighbors house; and get caught at it. Those are all licensed professions now. So why should just any Joe be allowed to conduct business on our highways just because he can drive a Toyota.

By the way all states have weight laws. Federal law sets the minimum and states can allow more.
For larger trucks it is.......
12,000 lbs for a single tire axle
20,000 lbs for a duel tire axle
34,000 lbs for a duel tire duel axle

No one wants to make it easy, and what the law says and what the law enforcement officer believes is the law don't necessarily match. When I worked in Tennessee all our raw material customers were 125 miles or less from the plant. We elected to run exempt logs on raw material trucks, they were always within the 150 air mile radius of the plant, DOT regulation says we can do it and they were simpler for the drivers to fill out. Would you like to guess how many time the idiot on the scale at the Mississippi line tried to cite us or put us out of service for not having a log? Another time the weigh master caught us pulling out of Newbern TN about 1200#s to heavy, he asked what we were hauling (waste from the sausage plant)when he came back from his car he told us on garbage or recyclable route trucks we were allowed a 10% variance on weight, we were less than 110% of our tag and to have a nice day.

Wayne
Re-axle weight. Not trying to pick a fight, but FYI.
Just looked it up. In NC the limit is 20,000 on dual tire, single axle, 34000 on tandem, both interstate and state roads. Super Singles, such as steering axle on mixers, dumps, & trash packers is 600#/inch tread width. With half a dozen small exceptions, it is the same all over.
As for being over axle wgt but not gross, you have to do what the rest of do, move some of the load to the other end, or as far as possible. Even if part of the weight is permanent mounted equipment on your service unit.
Be safe
WJ

Where did you get the 150 air mile rule from???

(e) Short-haul operations—(1) 100 air-mile radius driver. A driver is exempt from the requirements of § 395.8 if:
(i) The driver operates within a 100 air-mile radius of the normal work reporting location;

All this talk reminds me of one time maybe 25 years ago I pulled into a Port of Entry in Kansas with a pickup on a trailer behind another pickup.

The officer came out, looked me over, and asked if the pickup on the trailer was for my personal use or for sale. I told him it was for sale.

He replied, "Dang it, I wish you'd have said it was for personal use. If it's for sale, I'll have to do a bunch of paperwork and charge you $5. Now, let's start this conversation over. Is the pickup for personal use or for sale?"

I told him for personal use. He replied, "OK, you're good to go. Have a nice day".

I figured I might drive the pickup myself for a couple of weeks before I sold it.

BTW, he either didn't notice, or chose to ignore the fact that my trailer was 6" too wide to be legal in Kansas.

I still have to chuckle about it.

I try to stay within the law.

Rick

In Michigan, they ask for the make and the model, they know what they weigh, there really isn't too much you can do about it. I wonder sometimes, my father, grandfathers, my wife and myself have all run businesess. We made money, lost a bit, but never have had all this drama with "gubermint". If I make money, I pay some taxes, if I don't make money, I've screwed up. I don't blame anybody else.

That also reminds me of a time probably 30 years ago in a Wyoming POE. The company I worked for was moving equipment to a job in Oklahoma and we went through the port by Cheyenne. They had a 3/4 ton pickup pulling a utility trailer. It had to buy a permit. The next outfit was a 2 ton truck with 2 tanks loaded on it wieghing about 10,000# each. The truck was pulling a boat so it was an rv and didn't have to buy permit. It just didn't make sense.
Another time working for a local truss plant I hauled a set of trusses into Wyoming and on the way back I would haul web material for trusses. It was winter and as we all know you will pick up weight from snow etc. I pulled into the port and the officer was getting ready to write me a ticket for being 1500# overweight. I said that it was funny that I picked up 2500 # of crud in 30 miles. She says "What do you mean?" I said that when I left the stud mill that I was 1000# under legal and in 30 miles I'm 1500# over? She didn't give me the ticket when I produced the weight slip with time and date stamp from the mill. She sure wanted to give me that ticket but I had done everything I could do to be legal.

Steven

Google a book called "Three Felonies A Day" by a lawyer named Harvey Silverglate. In this book he makes the claim that people inadvertantly and unknowingly commit three felonies everyday. I, for one have learned from reading postings on this website that things I have always done might not be legal. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but,,,

The 4000 lb cut off was put in place so pickup's not used for hauling could run personal plates instead of all commercial plates like we used to. This came in back when NC started spreading out renewal's on personal vehicles so everyone didn't have to get a new tag in Janurary. Most suv's are classifed as truck's & could be checked for weight but the DMV makes that call when you tag it. The law was never intended for private passenger vehicles just trucks and or commercial hauling.

Yes, all states have weight laws but they are not as cut and dry as you day. It's been a few years since I made the trip so I might be off a bit, but for me to go from NC to West Va, put me in three different states. Here in NC the limit was 20,000 per axel on the interstate with a 10% variance if you weren't on the interstate. Don't remember whether it was VA or WVa, but one of them calculated the axel weight allowed based upon the square inches of tire surface contacting the road, and the third was different than that. In other words I could potentially leave home legal, and be illegal as soon as I crossed the state line.

What it all comes down to is that if you really want to stimulate Interstate commerce then you need to insure that the rules for interstate commerce are the same between ALL of the states. Currently each state is allowed to make up their own rules to add on top of the Federal rules and all this is is a way for them to legally extort money from commercial drivers who are doing nothing but trying to make a legal living.

At the same time noncommercial drivers can cross a state line doing something that is illegal in the other state, and get away with it. For instance here in NC a trailer tag is required on most trailers but in SC tags aren't required on most trailers. Still someone from SC can drive all over NC with a trailer that's not tagged and it's no problem. But let a commercial vehicle cross the line doing something that's legal in NC but not in SC and they get stopped and ticketed.

The whole purpose of tags, etc, etc is supposed to be to fund the upkeep of our highway systems. For commercial putposes we pay based on weight and the wear ansd tear caused to the roads by the vehicle due to that weight. Granted a 4000 lb car isn't producing the same wear and tear a 40,000lb truck is but that doesn't mean that the car's driver shouldn't be held to the same standards based on their vehicles true weight and pay their fair share.......

In NC you have to tag the vehicle for the weight of both the vehicle and any load you might haul or tow. In my case the GVW on my truck is 26,000 and I can legally haul a trailer with a GVW of 10,000 or less without getting a CDL. Basically then I have to tag at 38,000 to make sure I also give myself a little buffer zone to insure I don't go over my tagged weight. Thing is in the tweove years I've had my truck I've only put a trailer behind it maybe half a dozen times.

If I hauled a trailer all the time it wouldn't be a big deal, but I don't. Even then I'm not complaining about having to pay for the right to haul the trailer when I want, it just galls me to see others getting away with doing something illegal and it costing them nothing simply because weight wise they "aren't as illegal" as I would be doing the same thing with my truck and trailer. In other words if they are going to enforce the laws then enforce them across the board and not just on heavy commercial vehicles. Thing is they aren't going to do that because many of the fines, etc for violations are based on weight and a 40,000 lb plus truck is going to bring in more money than ten of the 4,000 lb trucks.....and what DMV officer is going to actually work that hard to make sure they get the quantity of stops and fines they need to keep the politicians happy????

down here we call dot 'revenue enforcement'

I get what your saying and your right, they do allow more for a tandem than a single axel. In my case I'm running a single axel FL 106 Freightliner so I'm limited to the 20,000 per axel on the interstate and, last I heard, an extra 10% on non interstate roads. That is unless you get stopped and are overweight more than the 10% and then the fine is calculated from 20,000 lbs. As far as the loading per square inch of tread, as of a few years ago in either Va or WVa that was the only way they calculated the allowable limit, regardless of wether it was a super single, tandem, or whatever, at least according to the state limit's I was able to find at the time.

As far as moving things to maintain the axel limits it's not always that easy. Granted for someone with a tractor trailer combo or a box truck hauling alot of smaller items it's not that big of a deal. On the other hand for someone like me that is hauling an engine, transmission, or whatever out of a piece of equipment it's not that easy. I say that because you have only the vaugest idea of what the item weights to begin with, even though over the years I've gotten pretty good at estimating based simply on how the crane on my truck reacts while picking the item. But the actual weight isn't enough because the real problem is that often due to the irregular shape of the item it will only fit one way. If the heavy end has to set to the back then so be it, if it has to set to the front then so be it. In the end there is no way to get around the shape of the item, no way to know the exact weight or which end might be heaviest or if it's heavy in the middle, no way to know how much weight is being transfered to each individual axel once it's setting in the bed, etc, etc, etc. Thing is setting in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere isn't somewhere you can drag out portable scales to check and insure your legal. Now granted if I had a question about any of this I could leave where the machine was setting in the middle of nowhere and drive 50-75 miles to find a scale that would tell me everything I needed to know, but why do that when I can simply drive the same 50-75 miles and be back at the shop with it? Either way I can't see being pulled by DMV and them accepting, "I'm headed to the scale to see if I'm overweight/legal" as an excuse.

In the end this really wasn't what my post was about. I know that just because of the kinds of businesses that most of us on this board are in we do things that are illegal or at least questionably on alot of occasions. Usually they aren't done with any real intent to break the law but they are still illegal. The thing is there are so many different Federal regs, and so many different state regs, an they change, delete, and add to them every year to the point that no one can possibly keep up with all of them. It should not be this way, but it is. The problem I have is that these rules are held over the head of and enforced upon those that drive what they consider commercial vehicles because they can get larger fines for the heavier weights, things that are considered illegal because all of a sudden 'interstate commcerce' comes into play, etc, etc. yet basically the same regs are ignored when it comes to a non commercial vehicle. Again, if you want ot play the game and apply the laws then apply them equally across the board...That's all I'm saying....

I do not understand all this talk about taging for weight. Here in Ohio it is passenger, non commercial that includes all farm trucks 3/4 ton and under. And all car plates are one price and non commercial are a higher price. Then commercial and all the commercial go by empty truck or trailer weight. NO loaded or combination weight for the tags.

NCWayne,too keep it short and simple because you have so many issues to address.You being OVER on axle weight is nobodys fault but yours,if yours or anybodys truck-trl.is that close on weight empty,then you have to make changes(lose wt,add axles or whatever.Simple as that,the law is the law wheather you like it or not on wts.