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Ethanol mythes and truths-Marine use

M

MSD

Well-known Member
I'll start a new post on ethanol here. In the tool talk forum there is one going and the subject of ethanol for marine use came up. The link below is from the Mercury Marine website. It discusses a lot of the myths and truths about ethanol use in their products and also in general engine use. The video is long but very informative. For those of you who have been experiencing troubles while other of us have not, they will explain what is happening to you. The people putting it on are from Mercury Marine. One is a fuel technical specialist, another is an engine development specialist and another is their product specialist. They are not promoting ethanol but are dispensing some of the most knowledgeable information I have found on the subject. After listening to the video, I think some of you may be better informed about the product in general as they cover many of the points that are always brought up and argued over. Please listen to the whole presentation and not just read the brief articles before commenting.
Mercury Marine Truth or Myths
 
Yeah, that's all well and good, but if it's just facts and no politics what are we going to yell about!?
 
If you guys don't want to take time to listen to all of it at least listen to the 5 min. to 8 min time of the tape.

Gary
 
Ethanol has been sold in Nebraska since the late 1920's. It has NEVER been a viable economic solution to real gasoline. All ethanol production has done is raise prices on corn and other commodities such as alfalfa, and nearly wipe out the availabitity to purchase others such as milo.

Corn is in EVERYTHING - from bacon to batteries - not just "Corn Flakes".

BTW - when people hear "end dependency on foriegn oil" they think Arabs. By FAR most of our oil comes from Canada and Mexico, not the Middle East.
 
Ethanol is very viable. Look at the amount of value that has been added to corn and the jobs it has produced. Every thing from trucks to haul the corn and ethanol to the guys that built the plants. The seed companys to the fertilizer plants all have as many if not more employees than ever.

Corn and other grains are the only thing the US has to trade back to China to keep China from owning this country. If the price of grain is high it causes china to give back more of the dollars that we are sending over there.

Iowa, as well as Nebraska I'm sure, have a strong state economy. More income for the farmers means more money going back to the state in income taxes.

Iowa has $400 million more in there coffers than they spent this past fiscal year. Where did that revenue come from? Corn

Iowa produced 3.9 billion gallons of ethanol last year. We only burn a total of 1.9 billion gallons of gas in Iowa per year. We exported more fuel out of Iowa than we burn.

We and the livestock still have plenty of corn to eat. If not for ethanol Iowa would have to get rid of another 1.4 billion bushels of corn per year.

"Corn is in everything" it maybe but we still have extra to burn.

Just my opinion and everybody is allowed to have an opinion.

Gary
 
LOL Gary spoken like a true corn grower. What about the guy on the user end who pays more for gas with ethanol, higher taxes to subsidize it and higher prices in the grocery store?

2 sides to every story!

Rick
 
Corn is a political plum....for the midwest. To make ethanol requires massive government subsidies and to look at it another way...it requries 1.2 inputs to make 1 out put of ethanol. Much of the go green is only viable with govenment subsidies and if you can't figure out that we the people pay that, you deserve to get fleeced.
 
But that all comes at a cost in higher prices and reduced availability (of other products). If ethanol as a fuel was so great - gas would be cheaper, not higher.
A lot of those dollars brought in were also subsidised.

While "availability" of corn might be higher in some places - the price has been driven up, causing everything made from (or containing) corn to increase in price.

Just because a product is available does not mean it's affordable.
 
I'm one of those who has had ZERO problems with ethanol. I'm going to have to watch this video to find out what I've been doing right...

People complaining that it's too expensive to buy corn to feed their piggies and moocows should realize that the only reason that was viable in the past was because corn was ridiculously cheap. Farmers don't understand the laws of supply and demand.

The commercial feedlot business model is DEAD.

With the price of corn so high, you're going to see a return to the traditional farm business model where you grow the crop, feed it to the livestock directly, sell the finished animal, and cut out the middle man.
 
Cannot be proved but the annalist say that if it were not for ethanol that gas would be 30+ cents a gallon higher. So gas is cheaper. Ethanol is keeping gas prices in check to a certain degree.

Gas companies are trying to buy ethanol plants. Why? So they can control both products.

Gas is also highly subsidised. Has been since we started driving fuel burning cars.

Ethanol is no longer subsidised as of 1/1/2012. The farmer collected subsidises were much higher, before ethanol took off about 4 years ago, than the subsidises paid to ethanol blenders. So the U.S. is saving all that money that was paid to farmers in years past.

Yep food prices are higher but we still pay a smaller percentage of our income on food than the other developed countries around the world.

Gary
 
LOL yea except state and local governments are paying to keep some open like the one near me. And wait a few months and see what happens.

I'm not saying ethanol is bad. I'm just saying it ain't cheap. It's really cost the end user so far in more ways than one.

Rick
 
If the farmer is making money. Without subsidies. The truckers to haul the corn and the ethanol are making money. Without subsidies. The ethanol plants are making money. Without subsidies. the blenders are making money. Without subsidies as of 1/1/2012. The gas stations are making money. Without subsidies.

Where could there be a negative in production verses the inputs? Someone would have to loose along the way for inputs to out weight the production income.

The college (Cornell) that started that idea (inputs more than outputs) back ten years ago was wrong and has been proven so. But that report was never retracted. And is still on the internet today.

Gary
 
But what about the savings in gas prices? Think about it an extra 10% supply of gas with ethanol.

In every manufacturing process that is in this country some are profitable and some are not.

We baled out GM but not Ford.

There is a plant north of me 20 miles that produced a million gallons a day 20 years ago to present. They built another plant next door to produce another million a day 1 year ago. Think they would have doubled their production if they were losing money?

Gary
 
Guys I am not trying to be a smarta$$. I'm just trying to disspell all the mythes that are out there saying ethanol is bad.

I wish you all had the choice to use ethanol or not use it like we have in the midwest.

As time goes on and new gas stations are built and old one upgraded you will have a choice. As of now the stations in the East and west don't have enough tanks to offer both.

The stations are force to offer ethanol but don't have enough tanks to still offer plain gas.

I don't like that the Government is forcing you to use ethanol.

Gary
 
Good info, MSD & Gary.

Some of us know this stuff, but it comes as a shock to those outside the corn belt.

They don't understand how ethanol evolved, how it works, how it's keeping the overall price of motor fuel down, how much high-protien feed is produced from an ethanol plant, that tax subsidies ended on ethanol, that world ecconomies creating a weak dollar is the reason food prices and corn price has shot up. That big oil secretly loves ethanol because they can use cheaper low octane crudes to mix with the ethanol and make good profits on what would have been low-value crudes.

They don't know that we are actually exporting corn ethanol to Brazil because their sugar cane can't keep up with their demand, and we can produce the ethanol cheaper from corn than they can from cane.

They live in crude oil producing states, andget their info from the big oil companies and the big food manufaturers, which put out - ah - questionable? - info on how ethanol fits into our ecconomy....

Not their fault they don't have a grasp on it. Just been mis-informed for so long, it becomes ingrained.

Ethanol isn't perfect, but it sure has helped a lot over thr past couple of decades and will for a few more until we figure something better out.

--->Paul
 
(quoted from post at 07:33:26 01/11/12) If the farmer is making money. Without subsidies. The truckers to haul the corn and the ethanol are making money. Without subsidies. The ethanol plants are making money. Without subsidies. the blenders are making money. Without subsidies as of 1/1/2012. The gas stations are making money. Without subsidies.

Where could there be a negative in production verses the inputs? Someone would have to loose along the way for inputs to out weight the production income.

The college (Cornell) that started that idea (inputs more than outputs) back ten years ago was wrong and has been proven so. But that report was never retracted. And is still on the internet today.

Gary
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Without subsidies???? For 11 whole days!!!! WOW!!! I'm impressed! Come back and tell me that in December.

I know of an ethanol plant that is and has been up for sale for over a year. Fairly new too, less than 5 years old. They haven't been able to sell it to anyone. If the state, county and local city had not GIVEN them money they would already be closed. I know of several other plants that that were never finished ofr are facing shut down.

It still takes more BTU's to produce the stuff than the finished product makes. That isn't ethanols fault. Lot of older plants out there that have not been updated.

I get the same arguments from another Gary here in MN who grows corn. He's basically a good guy but can see only his side of it due to what he's getting for his corn. He got a little over 220 BPA this year which in our area is pretty darn good. Most got around 150. Sorry but most of the folks I see pushing BIO fuels are farmers because more demand will make for more profit. So I'm a bit skeptical when anyone is auguring for something that will profit them. It's a bit like listening to a politician.

Rick
 
"Gas is also highly subsidised."

Please explain how gasoline (not ethanol) is "highly subsidized."

Dean
 
Sorry, Paul, but ethanol is not "keeping the price of motor fuel down" and we are not exporting ethanol to Brazil because "we can produce the ethanol cheaper from corn than they can from cane."

FYI, I do live in the midwest, am not misinformed and do have an extraordinarily good "grasp on it."

Dean
 
Funny.
They live in corn/ethanol producing states, andget their info from the big ethanol companies and the big corn growers, which put out - ah - questionable? - info on how oil fits into our ecconomy....

Not their fault they don't have a grasp on it. Just been mis-informed for so long, it becomes ingrained. ha

This whole thread is about the good or bad of the economics of ethanol and it could even be the best thing since sliced bread from an economics point of view (or NOT), BUT....it still isn't worth a toot to run thru your old engines, especially those that sit 10 months out of the year.
 
(quoted from post at 07:55:40 01/11/12) Guys I am not trying to be a smarta$$. I'm just trying to disspell all the mythes that are out there saying ethanol is bad.

I wish you all had the choice to use ethanol or not use it like we have in the midwest.

As time goes on and new gas stations are built and old one upgraded you will have a choice. As of now the stations in the East and west don't have enough tanks to offer both.

The stations are force to offer ethanol but don't have enough tanks to still offer plain gas.

I don't like that the Government is forcing you to use ethanol.

Gary
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Gary it would help your argument to produce provable facts not produced by any questionable sources, like the BIO fuel producers and green folks. Like college studies from all sides, economic and chemical.

In MN plain old gas is not an option thanks to the AG lobbyist.



Rick
 
> Please explain how gasoline (not ethanol) is "highly subsidized."

It's not a true "subsidy", but oil companies are given tax breaks if they explore for oil domestically. It has the same effect as a subsidy does though (encourages drilling when it's not economically viable without government action). Also, the ethanol blending "subsidy" was not a subsidy either, it was a tax break for oil refiners to encourage the production of E10.
 
Petroleum companies benefit from no "tax breaks" that other (non petroleum) businesses cannot apply.

Dean
 
I feel the article explained the water problem very well. Like others have, I have used Ethanol blend gasoline since it was introduced here. Only problem I have ever seen is hardening of hoses, tough on some plastic parts etc. It will clean out a dirty tank also, but I changed filters on a Datsun with over 130K miles, that had never seen Ethanol for first 100K and the filter was clean as new. I have it in my tractors that stand around 99.9% of the time with no more problems than any gasoline. My old tractors had considerable rust in tank from standing for 15 plus years and no real problems, cleaned sediment bowl a couple times. I had tried to clean them out good before putting them back on but you know you cannot get all rust out. No treatments. The whole deal of gasoline storage is really NO different with ethanol than any gasoline. Hot weather, it evaporates, cool weather it remains stable. I have set jars of different blends of gasoline out in hot sun, some with stabilizer, some with out. I could not tell any difference. All got rotten real quick. If you don't like it, don't use it if you can avoid it. I'll keep using it.
 
Then we simpley disagree. :) Most experts that study the facts are on my side, but that's ok you are in good company.

California actually thinks it makes good sense to import ethanol from Brazil for more money, while we are exporting corn ethanol back to Brazil - ships passing in the night.

Always comes down to justfying things to match your own personal agenda. :)

--->Paul
 
So the News media or Government is fibbing when they tell us we sold 50 million gallons to brazil in December.

Cane is worth more for sugar than ethanol so they are producing sugar and buying Ethanol from the US.
Brazil is short of sugar.
 
> It still takes more BTU's to produce the stuff than the finished product makes.

See now, that is a lie. It has been perpetuated for a long time by big oil tanker types, but is totally incorrect.

Current corn ethanol plants return about 20-33% more energy than is consumed, including the energy used to grow and haul the corn.

Your big oil tanker friends somehow forget to include the feed produced from ethanol production, and some of your friends even went so far as to count the energy cost of sunshine (which shines for free) in order to 'discover' the btu cost of ethanol - a very funny way to use 'facts' indeed. To be fair under that sort of energy accounting, we'd need to include the sunshine used to grow the dinasaurs and the heat/pressure used to create crude oil.

You're not helping yourself buy trying to follow such convoluted 'logic'.

We'll just ignore that ethanol can use lower-grade gasoline because of the octane boost....

Common view is that corn ethanol is saving 30 cents a gallon on today's gas prices while returning around 25% more energy. Of course like any projection that involved, there is room for error. In _either_ direction, might be more than 30 cents.....

I understand your mind is made up, but really can't let such large a lie go unchallenged, your comment does not hold up to fact.

--->Paul
 
There's lies, Damn Lies and then there are stastitics. (winston churchill)

Okay.. ethanol does not produe more power in gasolene, it has less btus.

gasolene with a higher octane additive does not produce have higher power. It has the same power as gasolene with lower octane. the higher octane means that it takes a higher combustion temp to set it off is all.

low octane gasolene can be used with higher compression engines by using direct injection and phased duration injection.
 
Most of my infro comes from a ag radio show. And the email debate I had with Dr David Pimental of Cornell College back in 2007.

Dr Pimentals' study was probably researched by students. A few things they had in the study, that I disupted with him.

To get a negative energy return they had the energy costs to make the machinery we use to farm with, and the energy used to maintain the roads to market. He charge all fert,seed and chemical energy used to grow the crop against the return of ethanol energy which I agree with. But then he added in the cost that the ethanol producers paid to the farmer for the corn. Where is the cost of the grain energy cost, if you use the energy cost that it took to produce the grain. A double whammy on costs.

Look for that study report and you will see what I am talking about.

Where does your infro come from.

Gary
 
(quoted from post at 10:30:52 01/11/12) So the News media or Government is fibbing when they tell us we sold 50 million gallons to brazil in December.

Cane is worth more for sugar than ethanol so they are producing sugar and buying Ethanol from the US.
Brazil is short of sugar.
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LOL Gary, the only thing that the governement tells me that I believe is true is that if I don't pay my taxes they will send me to jail. Know how to tell fer sure that a politician is liying? Their lips are moving! And I trust the news midia to tell the honest to Gods truth without slant as much as our politicians.

I want to see the results of major college studies. Not what some libera, tree hugging news person or the government wants me to hear.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 12:03:13 01/11/12) Most of my infro comes from a ag radio show.

Look for that study report and you will see what I am talking about.


Gary
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Ag Radio??? And you think that's going to be unbiased?

Gee maybe I should base my future voting on only what Fox and CNN has to say.

Rick
 
The only study we have degrading ethanol is 11 years old and full of holes.

Find me a study that proves enthanol is a waste.

Like I said everyone envolved to get ethanol to the pumps is making money so where is the loss of energy.

Iowa produced 3.9 billion of ethanol and burnt 1.9 billion gallons of gas and ethanol and we don't import that much grain to Iowa. Result, net gain in energy.

Gary
 
Beside ag radio prove that that study is full of holes with other studies that disprove it.

Now that the federal subsidies are gone we will see.

Rick
 
You won't listen to the proof cause it was done by the National Corn Growers.

The Cornell study did not even give any credit to the feed products that remained after the ethanol was made.

You only believe who you want to believe and all my proof is junk to you.

You must work for big oil.

Gary
 
I normally attribute that phrase to Mark Twain. He attributed it the 19th-century British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (1804–1881).

Cliff(VA)
 
Where and when did I clain that we did not export (pick a quantity of) ethanol to Brazil?

Rather, I disputed your claim that follows: "we can produce the ethanol cheaper from corn than they can from cane."

It has been wise of the Brazilians to import ethanol from (pick a country) that subsidizes the production of such so as to transfer costs from Brazilian producers to (pick a country) taxpayers.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 13:07:04 01/11/12) You won't listen to the proof cause it was done by the National Corn Growers.

The Cornell study did not even give any credit to the feed products that remained after the ethanol was made.

You only believe who you want to believe and all my proof is junk to you.

You must work for big oil.

Gary
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Nope Gary. I'm an old retired soldier who is starting farming.

Rick
 
By the way Gary, I attended a seminar, last year given by an AG professor from the University of MN who had an AG study canceled by a grain association because they didn't like the results they were getting and he refused to publish the results they wanted to get.


SO um....no I don't trust info put out by the corn growers association. They are doing their job of promoting anything that will increase the demand for corn. That includes lying! They are no better than a politician running for office. 2 groups make a gain from that, the seed companies and the growers.

Rick
 
"ethanol is not keeping the price of motor fuel down" When you price fuel at a station that sells E-85 fuel, it is about 60 to 75 cents per gallon below the price of regular 87 octane gas. One assumes this is because a lower priced product (ethanol)is being mixed with a higher priced product (gas).There aren't many stations that sell E-85 or vehicles that use it but it is much cheaper per gallon than straight 87 dino gas. I have to disagree with the above quote.
 
(quoted from post at 14:10:12 01/11/12) "ethanol is not keeping the price of motor fuel down" When you price fuel at a station that sells E-85 fuel, it is about 60 to 75 cents per gallon below the price of regular 87 octane gas. One assumes this is because a lower priced product (ethanol)is being mixed with a higher priced product (gas).There aren't many stations that sell E-85 or vehicles that use it but it is much cheaper per gallon than straight 87 dino gas. I have to disagree with the above quote.
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Nope, subsidized to get people to buy it. You can look it up.

Rick
 
But corn IS subsidized.

"...we still pay a smaller percentage of our income on food than the other developed countries...."
And this matters? The prices for food should be a LOT lower. Just because we are still less then other countries doesn't mean a whole lot when the prices keep going up. We're supposed to be BETTER then those other countries - not catching up (or DOWN, as it were) to them.

The whole thing is all about greed, not farming.
 

What are going to raise?

You may have a different outlook on prices and ethanol if you would have farmed through the 80's.

Why are you so against ethanol if you farm?

Farmers are getting record high prices for beef, pork and most all grains. And ethanol has caused this.

Would you rather have 70 cent cattle 40 cent hogs and $2.00 corn?

I don't get your point of veiw. By the way I started farming in 75 and have inherited a total of $10,000 from a great uncle and that is it. My mother is still living and owns her farm still. The land I own I bought myself.

I made it the hard way. And I am loving the times we are in as should any true farmer.

Gary
 
Gary you are looking at the world through your eyes. I'm looking through mine. My eyes that saw serivce from 74-96 for our country and our people. I guess making a few extra bucks at someones expense isn't in my blood. I try very hard to look at the overall picture not my one small piece of the puzzle. I don't think ethanol is good in the long run for our country. And everyone who has tried to convince me otherwise has an agend, money! I don't know about you but I find it hard to believe anyone with an agenda like money or power.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 19:08:19 01/11/12) Gary you are looking at the world through your eyes. I'm looking through mine. My eyes that saw serivce from 74-96 for our country and our people. I guess making a few extra bucks at someones expense isn't in my blood. I try very hard to look at the overall picture not my one small piece of the puzzle. I don't think ethanol is good in the long run for our country. And everyone who has tried to convince me otherwise has an agend, money! I don't know about you but I find it hard to believe anyone with an agenda like money or power.

Rick
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I commend you for serving our country but your pay for all those years came at my expense.

Every business that stays in business comes at someone elses expense. People are moving their cars at a lower cost with ethanol I can't figure out how you can't see that.

THERE IS A POSITIVE RETURN OF ENERGY. IT COMES FROM MOTHER EARTH.
 
In MN E85 is cheaper cause of gas tax breaks at the pump put forward by the state. What's funny is that every one I know who has used E85 swears that they will never buy it again. It's like 2.85 compared to 3.19 for regular in Fergus Falls as of Monday with I think only one place selling it. May not be a federal subsidy but it's still there.

Rick
 
Gary,You are wasting your time,fingers and breath on these people.Maybe I'am wrong but I believe 75 to 90% of these people don't farm anything to speak of and want the $2.00 corn to return.We used to farm 1000A+or-,run 400-500 Feeders,50Dairy and 50-100 sows at a time and never had or heard 1/10 of the hay-grass problems you hear on here.Maybe ethanol isn't the final answer,but it's the best we have at this point.I don't believe any of these people know what the 80s were.
 
(quoted from post at 19:14:59 01/11/12) In MN E85 is cheaper cause of gas tax breaks at the pump put forward by the state. What's funny is that every one I know who has used E85 swears that they will never buy it again. It's like 2.85 compared to 3.19 for regular in Fergus Falls as of Monday with I think only one place selling it. May not be a federal subsidy but it's still there.

Rick
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The price to purchase a gallon of ethanol today is $2.26 a gallon from the ethanol plants. With the cost of the 15% gas $2.85 sounds about right.

Are yousure there are tax breaks on ethanol at the pump.

There are no tax breaks here in Iowa on e85. When E85 is 20% cheaper than gas I burn it. I get 20% less mileage on E85.
 
(quoted from post at 16:13:46 01/11/12)
(quoted from post at 19:08:19 01/11/12) Gary you are looking at the world through your eyes. I'm looking through mine. My eyes that saw serivce from 74-96 for our country and our people. I guess making a few extra bucks at someones expense isn't in my blood. I try very hard to look at the overall picture not my one small piece of the puzzle. I don't think ethanol is good in the long run for our country. And everyone who has tried to convince me otherwise has an agend, money! I don't know about you but I find it hard to believe anyone with an agenda like money or power.

Rick
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I commend you for serving our country but your pay for all those years came at my expense.

Every business that stays in business comes at someone elses expense. People are moving their cars at a lower cost with ethanol I can't figure out how you can't see that.

THERE IS A POSITIVE RETURN OF ENERGY. IT COMES FROM MOTHER EARTH.
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And I commend you for making a go at it farming. Yours too came at my expense in the form of subsidies from taxes I paid and disabilities that I earned to grant you that freedom to try.

Well there is expense and then there is expense. If I make a quality product that performs as it should the only expense is to the end user and thats of buying it. If however I make a substandard product that fails and causes additional expenses to people other than the end user then that is an unacceptable expense.

Rick
 
Oldtanker,Money may not be everything,but it is far better then what is in second place.Ideas don't put food on the table and roofs over your head.
 
(quoted from post at 16:24:20 01/11/12)
(quoted from post at 19:14:59 01/11/12) In MN E85 is cheaper cause of gas tax breaks at the pump put forward by the state. What's funny is that every one I know who has used E85 swears that they will never buy it again. It's like 2.85 compared to 3.19 for regular in Fergus Falls as of Monday with I think only one place selling it. May not be a federal subsidy but it's still there.

Rick
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The price to purchase a gallon of ethanol today is $2.26 a gallon from the ethanol plants. With the cost of the 15% gas $2.85 sounds about right.

Are yousure there are tax breaks on ethanol at the pump.

There are no tax breaks here in Iowa on e85. When E85 is 20% cheaper than gas I burn it. I get 20% less mileage on E85.
Click to expand...


Gee if thats the price per gallon I'd sure like to know the price of a gallon of gas at a refinery is without the stae and fed taxes, storage fees, transport ect. Bet it sin't 2.26 a gallon.

I'll see what gas prices are like in Iowa later this month when I go to Cedar Rapids.

Gary don't get me wrong. I think gas prices are out there. The companies keep producing record profits, get tax breaks for exploration and yet no, not one politicians are willing to investigate the gas companies.

And I want to see farmers get paid a fair price for thier product. But I'm not willing to turn the average Joe into an indentured servant just so he can feed his family.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 16:29:56 01/11/12) Oldtanker,Money may not be everything,but it is far better then what is in second place.Ideas don't put food on the table and roofs over your head.
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LOL think I don't know that???? Try raising 7 kids on an NCO's pay!

Rick
 
Gary how close to Cedar Rapids are you? I'd really like to meet you in person. You seem to be a pretty decent guy who just happens to have a different view on things.

Rick
 
Iagary you have your facts straight on this deal and I applaud you for getting them out. You have really done your research well.
 
Lumpie, no, My 7 YO grand son has a brain tumor, they think non cancerous and in an easy spot to remove. The wife is currently there to help out with the other 2 as both my daughter and SIL want to be there for him at the hospital. Someone had to stay here and feed critters, I do have help to feeed for when I drive down myself to see them again and pick her up.

Rick
 
I'm about 15 minutes south of CR. I can drive up for a cup of coffee.

Lumpie we can use our corn to make fuel or we can let it rot in bins like it did in the 80's. That's when the government was paying us to not grow corn.

The billions paid to farmers to not grow corn is a thing of the past with the ethanol outlet.

Yes I do listen to the big show.
 
Gary- I actually read the entire Pimental study. Pimental and his fellow "researcher, an entomology (bug) professor were both employees of Shell Oil. Unbiased, yeah, right. BTW, that study has been debunked more than a dozen times. You mentioned how they researched energy costs. Two glaring mistakes- they determined energy costs to mine the ore, to make the steel, to make the tractors and equipment, that produced the corn. As if all that energy went into corn/eth production. Other glaring mistake- in their study they "assumed" ALL corn in this country was irrigated, so they had extra costs in that. Obviously, at least three here aren"t interested in facts, since what they hear (gossip) has more credibility.
 
Hi Gary. Did you ever run E30 instead of the E85? I have been using
it with good luck in my 2000 Dodge Dakota with 4.7. 1st tank I lost probable 1 mpg, next one I was
back to where I was and the 3rd, it actually went up 2 mpg from
what I usually got. The guy at the station claimed it takes 3 tanks to
make a difference. Computer needs to set itself for the different
fuel. He has talked alot of customers into trying it and he claims
they all like it after 3 tanks. Last time I filled up 2 weeks ago it was
$2.84. He has his blender pumps set at 10-20-30-85.
 
(quoted from post at 23:04:24 01/11/12) Hi Gary. Did you ever run E30 instead of the E85? I have been using
it with good luck in my 2000 Dodge Dakota with 4.7. 1st tank I lost probable 1 mpg, next one I was
back to where I was and the 3rd, it actually went up 2 mpg from
what I usually got. The guy at the station claimed it takes 3 tanks to
make a difference. Computer needs to set itself for the different
fuel. He has talked alot of customers into trying it and he claims
they all like it after 3 tanks. Last time I filled up 2 weeks ago it was
$2.84. He has his blender pumps set at 10-20-30-85.
Click to expand...

We have no blenders pumps here. Wish we did.

I have one truck that I can burn e85 in the the rest just e10.
 
(quoted from post at 22:55:15 01/11/12) Gary- I actually read the entire Pimental study. Pimental and his fellow "researcher, an entomology (bug) professor were both employees of Shell Oil. Unbiased, yeah, right. BTW, that study has been debunked more than a dozen times. You mentioned how they researched energy costs. Two glaring mistakes- they determined energy costs to mine the ore, to make the steel, to make the tractors and equipment, that produced the corn. As if all that energy went into corn/eth production. Other glaring mistake- in their study they "assumed" ALL corn in this country was irrigated, so they had extra costs in that. Obviously, at least three here aren"t interested in facts, since what they hear (gossip) has more credibility.
Click to expand...

Yes we emailed back and forth about 5 times. I honestly did email with him. I still have the emails saved on my computor but will not post them without his permisson.

He quit and would not respond when I said that he charged all the energy costs to produce the grain then also added the purchase price of the corn to the cost of energy to produce. Double charged for the grain in my eyes.

Gary
 
That Mark Pearson sure does get on a rant now and then, doesn't he? It's a decent show, on two of the most powerful, ag-based radio stations in a state that is absolutely, entirely dependent on corn production. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, it might be just a tad bit biased in favor of ethanol? Yes, the economy depends on agriculture. Yes, farmers should make lots of money. And they are not afraid to spend it, thus driving the economy. But the bubble will burst, it always does. Ethanol is not the cure, just a band-aid.
 
Last year ethanol producers shipped 250 million gals. to Brazil. This year they expect to ship 300 million gals. 14.5 billion gals. were produced last year alone. 1 billion gals were exported total last year to all countries.
 
With yields continuing to grow ethanol will be here for a long long time. It has already been here for 37 years and some of you are just starting to receive it. When the plants first started production 37 years ago they got less than 2 gallon per bushel. 2 years ago it was 2.7 gallon per bushel Some plants are closing in on 3 gallons per bushel now and it will go up. Corn hybreds will continue to produce more ethanol per bushel as well.

And what profession are you in Lumpy?
 
Tell me the cost of war in the east, and tell me that doesn't cost. We get more from corn then ethanol, Tell Koch oil there's no money in corn they bought 4 corn plant's here in Iowa last year.
 
(quoted from post at 02:33:56 01/12/12)

Gary, give me a call or send your number, 218 769 4126 or [email protected] Don't know the the actual dates I'll be down but I sure would like to share a cup of coffee with you.

Rick
Click to expand...

Got your infro down. If you have time I will give you a tour of the largest grain processing city of the world. Yup Cedar Rapids Iowa. Quaker Oats, Ralston Foods, Penford Products, General Mills, 2 Cargill Plants and 2 ADM plants.
 
You realize "abundant, tree hugging" goes hand-in-hand with college studies, right?

Like the "study" of some owl that called for reducing grazing because the owl needed at least 18 inches of grass to effectively hunt its prey.

But ignored the fact that the owl was still there after over 100 years of grazing cattle on that same ground.

Why do you think the Cornell study played with their math about ethanol? Because we aren't supposed to build or produce anything or disturb any single bit of ground in this country anymore. We are supposed to be a service based economy so that we can be perfectly "green".

There aren't too many people growing corn that I would call a "abundant tree-hugger", either. See the last statement above as to why.
 
I heard enough when he said do not use E15 in marine and small engines.

You guys that live in the mid west with your 10% humidity; do not really have boats; and ethanol is making your bottom line look great; can like ethonol if you want to.

For those of us that like boating and live with the smell of salt in the air because we are so close to open bodies of water; we have the right to hate it if we want to.

It would be like me coming on here and asking why would any fool spend the time and money to wrap his water pipes for his house.
When we both know it is because we live in differant climante zones.
 
(quoted from post at 08:31:34 01/12/12) I heard enough when he said do not use E15 in marine and small engines.

You guys that live in the mid west with your 10% humidity; do not really have boats; and ethanol is making your bottom line look great; can like ethonol if you want to.

For those of us that like boating and live with the smell of salt in the air because we are so close to open bodies of water; we have the right to hate it if we want to.

It would be like me coming on here and asking why would any fool spend the time and money to wrap his water pipes for his house.
When we both know it is because we live in differant climante zones.
Click to expand...

Hate break the news to you John but we have 70 and 90% humidity here in Iowa also. That is why corn grows so well here.

You don't have to use ethanol if you get your suppliers to handle both. I don't use 15% ethanol either.

IF you listen to the tape it says ethanol picks up the water and carries it out of your tank.So if you would get the water out of your tanks before you start with ethanol it would never buildup in the first place.

If your having water issues it is going to cause you problems before long without ethanol. It is not ethanol's fault you have had dirty tanks.

Now if you leave your boat set a couple of years with ethanol in it and enough water condenses inside the tanks to get the Ethanol beyond its saturation point, you will have to do something different.

Gary
 
(quoted from post at 09:35:13 01/12/12)
(quoted from post at 08:31:34 01/12/12) I heard enough when he said do not use E15 in marine and small engines.

You guys that live in the mid west with your 10% humidity; do not really have boats; and ethanol is making your bottom line look great; can like ethonol if you want to.

For those of us that like boating and live with the smell of salt in the air because we are so close to open bodies of water; we have the right to hate it if we want to.

It would be like me coming on here and asking why would any fool spend the time and money to wrap his water pipes for his house.
When we both know it is because we live in differant climante zones.
Click to expand...

Hate break the news to you John but we have 70 and 90% humidity here in Iowa also. That is why corn grows so well here.

You don't have to use ethanol if you get your suppliers to handle both. I don't use 15% ethanol either.

IF you listen to the tape it says ethanol picks up the water and carries it out of your tank.So if you would get the water out of your tanks before you start with ethanol it would never buildup in the first place.

If your having water issues it is going to cause you problems before long without ethanol. It is not ethanol's fault you have had dirty tanks.

Now if you leave your boat set a couple of years with ethanol in it and enough water condenses inside the tanks to get the Ethanol beyond its saturation point, you will have to do something different.

Gary
Click to expand...
f he pays attention to the Mercury Marine presenter, he should NEVER let his "boat set a couple of years with ethanol in it ", since the Mercury guy said 2 months storage was their age limit....oxidation...like sour milk.
 
Apparently you didn't listen to the whole presentation or you would have gotten the water in gas thing straightened out for yourself. Thats why there is so much misinformation out there. Somebody hears part of a story and runs with the half truth. These guys are Mercury Marine fuel and engine specialist. They have been testing this stuff for years and they laid out their findings in a very clear way. They are not in the ethanol business but are trying to show that it does not effect their engines like so many on here would seem to believe. It's out there and they tested it to make sure they have a product that works with it. Along the way, they managed to dispel a lot of the myths that go around such as ethanol attracting water. I guess it's just easier to not listen and learn when you don't want to hear the truths about something.
 
easy there MSD. Ethanol doesn't have to 'suck' water out of the air to get water into it. The Merc people clearly pointed out that temperature variations result in condensation on the inside walls of the tank where it runs down & under the fuel, combining with the ethanol until the point of saturation, where at that point phase separation occurs. As for the last posted comments on different climates. clearly such in tank condensation will be greater with more humid air!
Instead of bashing him, maybe you need to go back & re-listen to the hour of MERC presentations.
 
Apparently you didn't read my post MSD.
What picked out the words that fit your cause and ran with them.

Mercury and every other boat motor manufacture have fought ethanol for years. They know it is not good in marine motor applications not even considering the fiberglass storage tanks problems.
Yes the motors built today will work with E10. Heck if they want to sell motors they better at least say their motors will work with E10. This has caused them to make presentations like the one you have linked. But what about the motors built just a few years ago.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you read my post again you will see I said E15.
Mercury and every other marine engine manufacture have stated that your warranty is void if E15 is used. With the national push to increase ethanol from E10 to E15 or even E20 we are back in the same boat we were in a few years ago.

Now if you want to forward me the money to upgrade my outboard every time the older one will not run on the gasoline available today then we are good.
 
I think you meant your post for John. I agree with you Jammison, John should listen to the whole thing and then tell us what he thinks or better yet, now knows.
 
(quoted from post at 17:25:27 01/12/12) I think you meant your post for John. I agree with you Jammison, John should listen to the whole thing and then tell us what he thinks or better yet, now knows.
Click to expand...
What little content this thread ever had is exhausted now (was mostly opinion/propaganda by each supporting his own pocket book), but is now about beating other people about the head & shoulders. Close this sorry chapter, now!
 
Hey MSD, fellow 2000, 4.7 Dakota owner :).
Glad you posted that. It appears the early 4.7 are setup so they "like" E30. Mine has always been an 18 mpg machine on straight gasoline or E10, but for the last year, we have had blender pumps avalible that dispense E30. I was amazed how the MPG in winter is still 18 mpg on E30.
I have run it on E70 in summer with only a bit of mpg loss.

The price spread between E0, E10 (same price here has come down more than the price of E30 or E85, they say they are setting on some old expensive E85 stock that they don't want to sell at a loss, so the price spread has closed up some.
Last time I filled, E10 and E30 were the same price, so I put in E10 to see if the mpg changed any. Suprise, suprise, 16 mpg, I lost 2 mpg going from E30 to E10 =:-0. I made a 200+ mile trip today and had to refill, so I put E30 back in it. Will be fun to see if my 18 mpg comes back now that the tank is mostly E30.

The sad thing I have noticed is that most flex fuel cars /pickups make less mpg on E10,E20,E30 than non flex fuel rigs.
The only explanation that seems to fit is that the FFV rigs have such a conservative fuel map installed in the engine computer to protect the engine from a worst case situation that it kills their economy on e blends. The non FFV rigs may run a bit lean on E 20 or E30, but not enough to turn on a check engine light or cause any problems.

The video link below is really interesting. Really blows away some of the anti Ethanol myths.
100,000 miles on E85 with non FFV.
 
If the fuel isn't approved for aviation use. There is something about that fuel that can cause engine failure under some conditions where approved fuel will operate without problems.
 
(quoted from post at 23:20:29 01/12/12) If the fuel isn't approved for aviation use. There is something about that fuel that can cause engine failure under some conditions where approved fuel will operate without problems.
Click to expand...

I'm back.

There are other fuels that are not approved for aviation and we burn them in our cars. Mostly cause of octane ratings.

Also what little water ethanol will pull out of the air while in a closed gas tank will not matter

I still say, as does the tape, that problems cause by water with ethanol are where the water is in the tank before you start to use ethanol. If you have a clean water dry tank it will remain clean and water dry with ethanol.

By the way there is a fuel pipeline outlet in La the sells non ethanol gas. Conoco at Lake Charles. So ther you guys get your suppliers to get you some gas from them.
Check the web site below to see what I'm talking about.
http://www.placidrefining.com/distribution.asp


Gary
 
anything has pluses and minuses but i've noticed a little towns RR tracks 3 years ago weren't fit to run a hand car down after the textile mills dried up ,now are in good shape due to the steady flow of ethanol tank cars, not to mention all the truck traffic hauling from the pump station ,not enough corn grown in that area anymore to fill 2 of those cars with ethanol,also it replaced the anti-knock compound in gas that replaced lead can't remember the name additive but it bonded with water and leached into ground water making unsafe to drink ,also created a decent profit margin on corn production until the production inputs suppliers stuck there hand into the cookie jar just because they could ,remember a senator getting grilled for supporting the subsidies until he explained how $5.00 corn could be turned into $13.00 dollars being used for ethanol and the bi-products of it,also renewable right here in the US,look up isle of palms overseas see how much oil money went into that single project
 
(quoted from post at 19:02:39 01/12/12) Hey MSD, fellow 2000, 4.7 Dakota owner :).
Glad you posted that. It appears the early 4.7 are setup so they "like" E30. Mine has always been an 18 mpg machine on straight gasoline or E10, but for the last year, we have had blender pumps avalible that dispense E30. I was amazed how the MPG in winter is still 18 mpg on E30.
I have run it on E70 in summer with only a bit of mpg loss.

The price spread between E0, E10 (same price here has come down more than the price of E30 or E85, they say they are setting on some old expensive E85 stock that they don't want to sell at a loss, so the price spread has closed up some.
Last time I filled, E10 and E30 were the same price, so I put in E10 to see if the mpg changed any. Suprise, suprise, 16 mpg, I lost 2 mpg going from E30 to E10 =:-0. I made a 200+ mile trip today and had to refill, so I put E30 back in it. Will be fun to see if my 18 mpg comes back now that the tank is mostly E30.

The sad thing I have noticed is that most flex fuel cars /pickups make less mpg on E10,E20,E30 than non flex fuel rigs.
The only explanation that seems to fit is that the FFV rigs have such a conservative fuel map installed in the engine computer to protect the engine from a worst case situation that it kills their economy on e blends. The non FFV rigs may run a bit lean on E 20 or E30, but not enough to turn on a check engine light or cause any problems.

The video link below is really interesting. Really blows away some of the anti Ethanol myths.
100,000 miles on E85 with non FFV.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I've already watched that video twice. Those folks really did do the research and they honestly did report the results. Everyone really needs to watch it.
 
I was surprised by the results also. I told my daughter to try it in her 03 Durango with the 4.7 and she noticed hers went up also. I read somewhere that the E-30 works out better than E-30 for some reason also. I haven't tried any of that as i get good results with the E-30 and the price is really good so I stick with it. By the way it was 2 below this morning and the truck fired right up. So much for low temp starting problems.
 
Well, it is 20 below zero here in southern Guatemala and my tank is full of E85 and she fired of at about 1/2 revolution! So, top that yanks!
 
Ponder this: Greenies with their plug-in hybrids, get by for months (over 2 according to the Mercury Marine video) and then suddenly one day they run past battery range.............oops, sorry, you shouldn't have 'gassed' up with corn....call a tow truck, sucker!!!! :twisted:
 
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