Ethanol information?

[b:8ae8272aba][/b:8ae8272aba]Ive been working on a project for school and iam wondering if anyone knows much about ethanol and raising food prices. any information is a help.

Here is a few places to start:
http://zfacts.com/p/349.html
http://www.ncga.com/
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/

I'm turning off the computer for the night. Just the implication is pizzing me off as much as that deceptive,overblown story about (resuming) horse slaughter in this country and the blatant lies of omission being perpetrated by the media on the subject tonight.
So before I say something that I'll REALLY regret,GOOD NIGHT FOLKS!

We have the lowest food prices in the world, the people who complain about the price of corn are the same ones who think electric cars will cure all of our problems and won t let us build more power plants.(Electric Cars run on COAL) BTW I hate ETHANOL!!

Yes there is a direct correlation. And as a corn producer I am proud of it. It took us many years to figure out how to get a decent return for the products(food) we grow and I for one am not ashamed of it. Many farm leaders keep denying that ethanol has caused food prices to go up as if they are ashamed of it. This topic always changes to weather ethanol is a net gain energy source. I am not commenting on that, just that we got food prices to rise. So fellow farmers give yourself a pat on the back. We did it.

A rise in the price of the raw product (corn, wheat, barley, oats) has only a tiny part in the rise of the price of the finished product, the food we put on the table. The main culprit in rising food prices is transportation and the many processes it goes through before the final food product makes it to the grocery or restaurant and it's darned expensive to operate a grocery store and even more expensive to operate a restaurant. Jim

One of my favorite ethanol quandrys is when they were looking for investors to build the plants, they claimed that this plant would use every bushel of corn produced in that particular county, and that would raise the price of corn. But then the price of corn, and subsuquently all products derived from corn, went through the roof. Of course the ethanol industry immediately cried oh no, we didn't cause this, it was blahblahblah, whatever.

Something else to consider energy is an input to
Agriculture, we use gas or diesel fuel to power
the tractors and combines to plant and harvest, natural gas or LP gas to dry, diesel to transport
to market, more diesel for the train or barge to
get it where it"ll be processed. Nitrogen
fertilizer was made from natural gas when I was in
school, don"t know if it still is. Electricity
and gas and diesel,coal or fuel oil in processing
the food. Then a mix of fossil fuels and
electricity to store preserve transport and sell
the food. IF THE PRICE OF ENERGY GOES UP THE
PRICE OF FOOD WILL FOLLOW. If we allow food to be
turned into energy (ethanol) that to will drive
the price of food up. A RESOURCE WILL GRAVITATE TO
ITS" HIGHEST AND BEST USE. Meaning if the price of
energy goes up at a different rate than food and
food can be turned into energy food stuffs will
gravitate to energy IF THEY ARE WORTH MORE AS
ENERGY THAN FOOD. An if your government takes
your tax dollar to subsidize this exchange even
more will go to energy and less to food, driving
food prices up. Application of basic economic
concepts will answer your question unfortunately
the current regime in Washington gets nervous when
people start understanding fundamental economic
concepts.

This is a rather controversial topic on this site, so you _may_ get some conflicting opinions.

Just saying.

In the 1980's many things conspired to make corn - and all grain - prices terribly low in the USA, especially in the upper midwest where it grows well, but it was difficult to ship out to other countries. The govt had done several embargoes on grain in the past 20 years so other countries didn't trust the USA to buy grain from, depressing USA grain prices. The USA dollar was very very strong compared to the rest of the world, making USA corn seem very very expensive compared to corn from other countries.

In short, the USA was drowning in cheap corn, and no one really knew what to do - it was destroying USA farming as we knew it.

Some govt folks and some farmers got together, and thought, hey, if we could use some of this cheap cheap corn to make fuel with it, it would help reduce the surplus of corn, and help supply some fuel which was kinda in short supply, and it would help keep our air cleaner because ethanol blends burn a bit cleaner than pure gasoline. (As it turned out, ethanol is also vastly safer for the environment than MTBE too!)

So, the govt people passed laws to help make ethanol get used in our fuel supply, and farmers build ethanol plants that break down corn into ethanol and livestock feed.

Minnesota was kind of on the lead in this, and one of the first ethanol plants was built 15 miles from me. Some laughed, some invested money in it, there were a lot of hiccups and problems, bur eventually it worked, and worked well.

So, over winter when we have piles and piles of corn here in MN, and the Missisippi river is frozen over so we can't shp corn anywhere.... These ethanol plant continue to use up corn, while producing more than enough livestock feed from the 'waste' DDG that the ethanol plant has left over after making ethanol.

It was a real win-win for our area.

And it made corn 'basis' price in my area go up 10, maybe 15 cents! 'Basis' is the local price of corn. CBOT is considered the 'national' corn price, but wherever you live, the actual price of corn is different - some places in the south to the east actually can get _more_ than the CBOT price for corn, because they don't grow enough locally and have to ship it in. Places like Minesota we grow a _lot_ of corn and so it is always cheaper here than the CBOT - we have to pay shipping to get rid of the corn.... Often our 'basis' here is 50 or 60 cents less than the CBOT price.

So, it was really nice to get that extra 10 or 15 cents for corn 'here'. And, it really didn't affect the CBOT price all the rest of you base your corn prices on. It affected 'basis' price a little, with very little effect at all on 'CBOT' price.

Farmers built the ethanol plant with their own dimes, it raised the basis price of corn a bit in the corn-ritch parts of the USA, it produced enough feed for the livestock in the area anyhow, and didn't effect national or export corn prices very much at all - slightly.

Now, by the mid 2000's, everyone went nuts, built ethanol plants in stupid areas where there was no cheap corn, looked to the govt to ever increase the use of ethanol and support it forever, and the buzz was how much corn all this ethanol would use - which got noticed by investors who decided to go stick money into the CBOT and create a paer-demand for corn, which did raise the price of corn - because of this flush of spare money thown into the market....

At the same time, the USA dollar has fallen horribly in value, and the Pasific Rim countries - mostly China - have a lot of cash and are willing and able to buy our cheap soybeans, pork, and poultry and a bit of corn, which again makes the CBOT push corn prices up up up. But this is all related to the world ecconomy, not ethanol.

So........

In the long run, the USA always has produced more corn than it can consume. With or without ethanol. Little real reason for CBOT values to change much.

Ethanol has created areas of the USA where the price actually went up a little bit dime, quarter, or so - per bushel.

The 'hype' of ethanol created an investing frenzy or bubble that di create higher corn prices for everyone - but that is mostly a 'hype' thing,and will fall flat again some day. Is this bubble because of ethanol, or because of hyped up Wallstreet investors???? Hum.

Currently corn prices are very high in the USA, but this is derectly a result of the very low value of the USA dollar - world ecconomies and events. Anyone saying the $1.80 corn of 1980 vs the $6.00 corn of 2011 is only because of ethanol is nits. It's because of world demand and the low USA dollar.

Ethanol actually raises corn value a dime or quarter per bu; and can create some hype that increases the speculation in corn prices.

I'm sure some will totally disagree with me, and I am not the best explainer of things, but if you want a true view of corn ethanol, there's a lot of stuff to understand & put together. This is an outline of it.

--->PAul

I think your explanation was more than excellent! (as usual) Facts over gossip and mis-information.

Try this for USDA Ethanoil energy balance study.
Ethanoil energy balance study

And this video about engine killing ethanol.
100,000 miles on E85.

(quoted from post at 20:52:20 11/30/11) And this video about engine killing ethanol.
100,000 miles on E85.

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting that link. Actual, in-depth, scientific proof that ethanol does NOT damage any part of an engine or fuel system. If anyone can provide a bona-fide argument, bring it on.

Paul I think your explanation was very good.

Anyone that thinks ethanol caused $6 corn all by itself is a fool. Just like anyone that thinks ethanol is the answer to our fuel problem is a fool.

He's not asking for OPINIONS, he is asking for SOURCES of FACTS.

School papers require cites to established sources. "Rustyfarmall said such-and-such on the YT forum" as a cite is an instant F.

those are the same people that elected the current government

(quoted from post at 06:57:42 12/01/11) He's not asking for OPINIONS, he is asking for SOURCES of FACTS.

School papers require cites to established sources. "Rustyfarmall said such-and-such on the YT forum" as a cite is an instant F.

Click to expand...

mkirsch, that video on youtube is not just opinion. The research was done by experienced and certified technicians.

It depends on what you consider "high" in terms of corn prices. From 1916 to 1922 corn was in the $1.75 to $2.15 a bushel price. Adjusted for inflation that puts corn in the $20.00+ dollar a bushel range today.

In 1979 corn was in the $6.00 range per bushel, today that would be $18.71 per bushel.

Local Coop is paying $5.80 today. Sounds pretty ****ed cheap to me.

Corn price history for the last 35 years:

http://cta.ornl.gov/bedb/feedstocks/Grains/Corn_Price_per_Bushel-Figure.xls

(quoted from post at 10:06:20 12/01/11)

(quoted from post at 06:57:42 12/01/11) He's not asking for OPINIONS, he is asking for SOURCES of FACTS.

School papers require cites to established sources. "Rustyfarmall said such-and-such on the YT forum" as a cite is an instant F.

Click to expand...

mkirsch, that video on youtube is not just opinion. The research was done by experienced and certified technicians.

Click to expand...

I was just using you as an example rusty because I remembered that you had replied to the thread. Didn't give a second thought to the content of your post.

Hey as long as the source can be cited, it's good to go.

(quoted from post at 14:05:51 12/01/11)

(quoted from post at 10:06:20 12/01/11)

(quoted from post at 06:57:42 12/01/11) He's not asking for OPINIONS, he is asking for SOURCES of FACTS.

School papers require cites to established sources. "Rustyfarmall said such-and-such on the YT forum" as a cite is an instant F.

Click to expand...

mkirsch, that video on youtube is not just opinion. The research was done by experienced and certified technicians.

Click to expand...

I was just using you as an example rusty because I remembered that you had replied to the thread. Didn't give a second thought to the content of your post.

Hey as long as the source can be cited, it's good to go.

Click to expand...

Not a problem. I didn't even respond for quite awhile, but then had the thought that maybe that youtube video SHOULD be more or less "endorsed" if you will.

I would suggest you research the value of corn as a raw material input to manufacturing various foods. You could then make the case that this is the only price increase of the finished product can be explained by rising corn prices.

For example: Today it takes approximately 10 cents worth of corn to make a box of corn flakes. Therefore if the price of corn doubles, a box of corn flakes should icrease by 10 cents. Any increase greater than 10 cents has to be caused by other factors.

I am sure you know more about finding the information then I ever will so good luck on your paper. I would be interested in reading it if you post it on this site.