7.3/6.9 IH diesel question

Hey all, I know I'm not the only one here still running a IDI 6.9/7.3, so I'm hoping someone else has experienced my issue.

I have a 86 Ford that had the 6.9, I re-powered it with the 7.3 a few years back.. I've noticed the last few days as we've began to get colder I've been starting harder, and starting to seem like the battery is drawn down, so tonight, (since I had charging issues a few months back) I popped the hood and began to inspect.. Checked this and that and noticed it sounds like the alternator (that was replaced not too awful long ago) has something going on inside (sounds like bad bearing/bushing), but is charging still..

The charging has little to nothing to do with my actual problem, which is this: I noticed tonight, while checking charge voltage and whatnot, I would rev the truck up to approximately what would be cruising rpm's (say 1800ish).. If I let it come down slowly, no issues.. If I just let it go from the higher idle to curb idle, it would continue to run a second, stumble, and stall.. Will restart right back up just like if the key was switched off then restarted. I found this out accidentally, while revving the truck up from under the hood and watching a voltmeter, and my finger slipped off the accelerator lever, and that was the result.. Checked result about a dozen times, same thing happened.. Would do it from a lesser rpm as well, from under the hood or from in the cab, just had to be a fast deceleration.

I've never noticed the truck doing this before, and can't say it has ever troubled.. Of course, i usually don't throttle down that fast. I give the curb idle screw a turn or so (I'd say an increase of 25-50 rpms) and it didn't seem to do it following that.. Only time it has ever stalled is when it's real cold and the truck hasn't been plugged in it will occasionally stall after a second of running.. cycle the plugs again and good to go.

Anyone ever have this issue? Do I possibly have a serious issue brewing, or am I being over-concerned? It's currently my daily driver, so I'd prefer to keep it running as opposed to be left having to walk.. AGAIN, other than accidentally finding this out, it runs/drives just the same as it has since i installed the engine over 2 years ago.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance.

Brad

Take that thing to an auto parts store ASAP and
have them check the battery(s) and see if they
are good. A bad battery (bad cell) will fry the
alternator after about 2 days of hard starting.
BTDT!!!!

Lumpy,

New batteries this spring (possible one could be bad, AGAIN), but thanks, will look into that. I'm sure my hard start is likely glow-plug related.. Plan to check it out more tomorrow.

Thanks.

Brad

Put some lube in the fuel. I use ATF. When you throttle down fast the fuel meter is sticking a little when the gov shuts it off and won't recover quick enough to keep it running. Have had several on construction eqip do that. Quart of ATF in the fuel has always fixed it for me.

Well, you don't say whether it's hot or cold when
it stalls coming down suddenly from high idle.
Cold, could be faulty or disconnected fast idle
solenoid. Check little switch threaded into
manifold (water passage) on left front corner of
engine as you're facing it. There should be
continuity between these terminals when cold.
Stalls from high idle hot? Usually on high-time
injector pump, or one that's been contaminated
with water. Check advance lever on side of pump
for freedom of movement, prone to corrosion and
gets stiff. Remove the pump top cover and check
the linkage attached to the metering valve for
freedom of movement. The metering valve should
move very freely. If it's stiff or draggy the
valve is scratched and there's nothing you can do
about it. Just don't chop the throttle anymore.

Thanks again guys,

I will try a little lube first.. See if that helps at all.

Fritz, tonight when I "accidentally" noticed, the truck was warm.. Had just drove 20 miles or so.. I'll put a eye to it and see if everything seems good and free.. I don't think that water is my problem, I have a water separator, and do my best to drain it on a regular basis (and not that stock thing that was all boogered up when I bought the truck.. )

On another note, the cold idle solenoid you mentioned doesn't work as it should. The "solenoid" is junk.. I probably should fix it.. I get power through the temp sensor, but the solenoid won't "push" out to increase idle speed.. I know it has to be adjusted to function as it should, but it won't kick out, so I've never adjusted it.. (believe it or not, I have invested in a service book.. Sure has made life so much simpler more than once.. )

Thanks again for the input guys.. I'll start with small steps.. Like lubrication (and getting that noisy alternator looked at LOL)

Brad

I forgot to mention that a cold stall after starting
means your developing an air leak. Two likely
sources: Rotten rubber hose between frame and fuel
pump, or, if it's an'86, the water separator on
firewall. (if you repowered with a 7.3, it will have
it's own water separator, but I don't know what you
actually put in the truck, like a long block for
instance). Other sources for air leaks would be lift
pump, or rotten frame lines if it's a rustbucket.

just another quick note... that solenoid won't
"push" the throttle open, it extends when you step
on the accelerator and stays latched out until the
sensor shuts it off

Fritz,

When i bought the truck it had MAJOR issues.. One being the factory water separator.. The previous owner had tossed it and hooked the rubber hoses up to a sediment bowl like we would see on most older tractors, and zip tied it on.

I went to NAPA and bought a filter base and a water separator type of filter, and I change it every 6 months (roughly every 7k miles or so)..

When I re-powered it with the 7.3, I did a long block swap.. The only things I kept and reused was the flywheel/flexplate, starter, and alternator. At that time, I did change that rubber hose that connects the steel fuel line to the fuel pump (however, i have used some of the same line on other things and have had issues, so it is possible it is going bad) and I left my water separator on the firewall (I mounted it where the factory unit was) as well as kept the one that was on the engine.. if one is good, 2 must be better right?? LOL.. I change the one on the engine about once a year, the other about 2 times a year.

At the time of re-power, all injectors were popped, and all of the plastic "caps", o-rings, and lines for return were replaced. What I did notice tonight also while diagnosing is the "valley" area appeared moist, so I may have a fuel leak in that area somewhere.

It was dark and cold, and I wasn't going to pull the snowmobile and tractor out of the barn and fire up the heat tonight, but I probably will tomorrow and begin to fix up some of my issues.. It's amazing how a few cold days bring out the issues you've never noticed all summer.. LOL..

Thanks again,

Brad

AND before you buy new batteries, crawl under and
check the starter cable for loose, rusty, or
corroded or all three... clean it up real good and glob Never-Seez all over it.

Cables are clean tight and bright.. Underneath, anyhow..

Starter will be a week old tomorrow (and batteries are about 8 months old or so.. LOL..).. It cranks fine, and did then, but the solenoid was bad, and I decided about the time i put a solenoid on it, the starter motor itself would puke.. Plus, my NAPA store says they couldn't get the solenoid that is on the starter (but we never thought to look it up as International and not Ford).. all it showed was complete starter, and solenoid on inner fender.. I have a extra inner fender one I carry at all times (however, putting far less amperage through it than in a gas truck, it will likely last as long as the truck does)

I'm about to the point where if I replace the body, everything would be nearly new.. LOL

Brad

80s Ford diesels often got air leaks in the fuel system. That causes "false starts." Problem was the Schrader vavle by the fuel filter (looks like a tire valve). Ford sent out many bulletins on it.

Also might want to check your return lines if new. Many line kits like Dipaco sells are absolute garbage and sometimes fall apart in a few months.

Hope you didn't pay too much. I buy those starters brand new for $97. Much better deal then some "rebuilt" junk from NAPA.

http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/p-1345-new-ford-truck-69-73-diesel-starter-high-torque-85-94-smt0018.aspx

Wait a minute,are you still there? Now that I read it carefully,my 6.9 did that. The stock pumps on those things had a leather governor ring. Rebuilts had a steel ring. I think your governor ring is coming apart. That's what was wrong with mine.

First question I have to ask is Are you pluging your block heater in over nite? What year of 7.3 did you put in it? I have a 96 7.3 in SW Ohio this morning its 34 degress and with out it pluged in over nite would start like yours dose. Have you had the fuel pump and injecter pump pressure checked to see how much pressure they are putting out? When you drive it dose it seem alittle slugish? Let us know it might be something simple. Bandit

(quoted from post at 06:02:55 11/30/11) Hope you didn't pay too much. I buy those starters brand new for $97. Much better deal then some "rebuilt" junk from NAPA.

http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/p-1345-new-ford-truck-69-73-diesel-starter-high-torque-85-94-smt0018.aspx

Click to expand...

Don't know why you are so down on NAPA but I've never had a problem with NAPA remans.....even when I was turning wrenches for a living.....only had one starter that went bad while under warrenty and we only used NAPA alternators and starters.


Rick

i have fixed two of these trucks lately that the check valve in the tank was bad allowing fuel to run back to the tank . parts are no longer available so what i did was install a universal check valve in the tank.

NAPA sells many different levels of rebuilt starters, just as many other places do.

My main complaint with NAPA is their ridiculous prices. A good friend of mine owns the local NAPA store and it's the only auto parts store within 40 miles. I can always buy the same parts by same maker and same # much cheaper from Rock Auto and they get here in two days. Often 50% cheaper and I get a 15% professional discount at NAPA.

For starters for a 6.9 IH-Ford diesel?
NAPA " super premium" rebuilt is $219 plus a $66 core charge if you don't give them your old one.

A brand new starter from NAPA (made in China) is $220. Rock Auto sells the same starter for $160.

I can buy the same new starter for $97 elsewhere.

RRLund: Thanks for that info.. I know very little as to if the pump has been refurbished (which may indicate if it has a leather or steel ring), and if so, when it was.. What I do know is I've put 15k miles on it so far without many issues. I'll give my local pump guy a call perhaps tomorrow and see if he thinks it could be a likely culprit. Hoping it'll hold out till spring if so, I'm only about 2 weeks from being laid off for the season, so there'll be no "overtime money" for a little while..

LJD: The starter was $110, not that the cost is anyone's business. I get most things at their cost plus 10% (helps when you spend the kinda money we spend on the farm account there). I too, have never had a problem with ANYTHING I've gotten through NAPA, aside that they made some warranty changes in the last year or so, so some of my stuff was prematurely off warranty, but I hear the cheap stores in town are doing the same crap.

The problem with your "mail order" starters is "A few days" does me NO GOOD when I can't shut off the truck for fear it will not restart, specially when it's my DAILY DRIVER! I'd have taken mine in for a rebuild at a local shop if I would have had the time to wait. We have a local farmer who also rebuilds alts, gens, starters, and the like, and his work is top notch, and if you should happen to have a problem, he stands behind his work, even years down the road.

Bandit: I do not usually and have very rarely ever plugged the truck in. Hit the key, hear the click of the glow plug relay.. wait until light is out, and fire it up, let it idle to warm up 5-10 minutes when cold out (which it needs to to defrost windows anyhow) and good to roll. Never has been a issue before. The engine is out of I believe a 1990 truck.. I bought a pair of engines from a friend, the one i was going to install was from a 1993 with nearly 400k on it.. and he said "Oh, and this engine goes with it.. it's supposed to run good and have 100k on it, I bought it from a guy who totaled the truck and I bought the engine for a spare/parts" I took the chance and dropped the "supposed to be good" into the truck.. Never looked back.

Juniur: Thanks for the info, do you know of a appropriate way to determine if that is in fact my trouble? I'd hate to lift the bed or drop the tank to find out that is not my issue. Maybe I'll try to run it on the back tank and see if the cold start issue changes.. I use the front tank 90% of the time, and the rear is usually my "reserve tank".. when the previous owners installed the flat bed, they did a little fabbing to make sure the front tank takes fuel well.. The back tank needs some changing.. it takes nearly 10 minutes to fill the rear tank.. But since I fill it up and just sip out of it as needed, I only fill it once every 60 days or so.

Again guys, the cold start was not my original issue.. But I do appreciate things to look at, as it too needs corrected. The issue is why would it stall when I side-step off the accelerator? If I decelerate slowly, no troubles.. If I flat foot the pedal, it up and goes just like it always has (no setting speed records, but no noticeable hesitation. If I get on the freeway, it's a screamin, but will run 80 without trouble. Again, it was doing this last night, I found it accidentally while diagnosing what seems to be a squeaky alternator, after about a 20 mile drive. It has never stalled on the road, aside when one of the filters plugged up on my way home from work one evening.

All that I would like is to be told what could be going on so i can keep a eye on things.. Gettin too cold to be walking here in Michigan. Like I also said, I turned up the curb idle slightly, and then it seemed to stop stalling, so maybe the idle was just too low all along..

Sorry for the long reply

Brad

The only injection pumps used on 6.9s that had the plastic piece inside the pump were those built before mid-1985. After that that all have EID drives that can't break or fall apart. EID stands for "elastomer insert drive."

As to starters - yes I understand what happens when something is needed right-away. I rarely have that issue with starter motors since they usually give early warning signs. When I can plan ahead - I'll take a new starter for $97 anytime over a rebuilt that not only costs more - you also don't get to keep the old starter. I'd rather buy new and later rebuild the old one myself and then have a spare on hand. A starter is pretty easy to rebuild as long as you've got access to parts.

A few years back my diesel plow truck was sitting out in zero degree weather and would not turn over. I was in a panic and jacked it up, pulled the starter and found a broken starter drive. I had no parts to fix so I ran down to NAPA and got a rebuilt for $120. The first one did not work right out of the box. They special-ordered me another with their "shuttle service" and got me another one that afternoon. I put it in and all worked well - for one month. Then the solenoid locked up. When I brought it back to NAPA, the owner told me if I'd give him another $100, he sell me a better rebuilt starter with a lifetime warranty. I passed on the offer. I got a brand new starter for less then $100 and it's been fine ever since. I later pulled part the "rebuilt" NAPA starter and fixed it myself.

Not sure why you seem to be express animosity about prices being "no one's business." If you want to keep things private - don't discuss them.

You posted here then therefore invited some interchange.

As to NAPA and never having problems? I guess that depends on the definition of a "problem."
NAPA doesn't rebuild starters or manufacture car parts. NAPA is simply a reseller. What I would regard as a problem from a NAPA store would be over-pricing, selling incorrect parts, and/or not honoring warrantees. I've had all three happen, but I can say the same for other parts sellers. NAPA puts NO price controls on NAPA stores. Pricing is up to the store owner. I bought a fuel filter in Michigan at a NAPA store in Rogers City and was charged $56. When I got back to NY I checked my local NAPA and the same filter (same make and part #) was $32.

I have, by far , gotten the best service from Rock Auto. But yes, it takes a few days to get their parts.

The quality of any auto-parts store is going to be determined by who owns and runs it. Not the franchise.

I have to disagree with you on that John. I put that pump on it new in the mid 90's. New from Ford. I had another one here on another motor that had a rebuild tag on it. That one was good. The Ford diesel guy told me about that stock,unrebuilt pump having that bad governor ring. He said he had rebuilt more than a few and the rebuild kit had a steel ring.

if your getting air out of the bleeder or nothing at all before you start it then check valves are bad. supply fuel system is supposed to hold pressure for easier starting. the oem check valves are plastic the ones i have seen have just come all apart(i think from the ultra low sulfur fuel but that will just start a whole other discussion)i get brass ones from NAPA# cv8000

I cannot say I've seen the insides of every DB2 injection pump made after 1985.

I CAN say that all those pumps were manufactured by Stanadyne and Stanadyne sent out numerous service bulletins in 1985 annoucing that the plastic ring was no longer being used in any applications for vehicles made for highway use. That includes the GM 6.2s, Ford-IH 6.9s/7.3s and all the militatry 6.2s. Stanadyne also made it required repair policy for any certififed repair shop to retrofit a solid or EID weight retainer into ALL DB2 pumps used on cars and trucks made prior to 1985. Any that got upgraded got a special ID tag attached. Back in 1985, this was a big deal since so many pumps had left trucks "dead on the road." I was working in a pump shop at that time and can say for sure - I have never seen a pump newer then 1985 on a highway vehicle with the plastic.

Besides the Stanadyne bulletins, Ford, GM and the US Army sent out their own versions.

If you claim you have seen different? Please post the pump ID number. I am very interested.
For the moment I do not believe it. It IS possible somebody stuck an older pump on a newer engine. The ID plate can tell all.

Bulletins were even sent out to fix the 70s 350 Olds diesels after 1985.

SERVICE BULLETIN NUMBER: 84-237
Bulletin Sequence Number: 012
Date of Bulletin: Feb 1985
NHTSA Item Number: 76729
Make: Chevrolet
Model: Monte Carlo
Year: 1982
Component: Fuel: Fuel Injection: Unknown Type: Accumulator
Summary: DIESEL INJECTION PUMP GOVERNOR WEIGHT RETAINER - A NEW GOVERNOR WEIGHT RETAINER ASSY. REFERRED TO AS AN "ELASTOMER INSERT DRIVE" (EID) USED ON ALL 1985 MODEL INJECTION PUMPS IS INTERCHANGEABLE WITH THE RINGS USED ON 1978-84 MODEL DIESEL INJECTION PUMPS. REPAIR KITS AVAILABLE FROM EITHER WDDGM OR A ROOSA MASTER DEALER. 1980-84 CHEVROLET IMPALA AND CAPRICE, 1982-83 MALIBU, 1982-84 MONTE CARLO, AND 1982-84 CELEBRITY WITH 4.3L V6 OR 5.7L V8 DIESEL ENGINES.

All the pumps have ID tags that tell year made e.g. . .

DB2829-4310 14077186 1984 LD G Van - CAL. (Man. Trans.) G — —
DB2829-4355 23500014 1984 HMMWV (Military) C/K DB2829-4471 Note 5
DB2829-4366 23500077 1984 LD G Van - CAL. (Auto. Trans.) G DB2829-4439 Note 5
DB2829-4386 23500256 1984-85 CUCV (Military), HD C/K, D Truck - 1.2 cSt C/K DB2829-4521 Note 2
DB2829-4410 23500251 1985 HD C/K & P Truck C/K DB2829-4544 Note 2
DB2829-4411 23500252 1985 HD G Van G DB2829-4509 Note 2
DB2829-4412 23500253 1985 HD C/K Truck - ALT. C/K DB2829-4510 Note 2
DB2829-4413 23500254 1985 HD G Van - ALT. G DB2829-4511 Note 2
DB2829-4425 14077168 1985 LD C/K Truck C/K DB2829-4502 Note 2 except (d)
DB2829-4426 14077171 1985 LD C/K Truck - ALT. C/K DB2829-4506 Note 2 except (d)
DB2829-4427 14077169 1985 LD G Van G DB2829-4503 Note 2 except (d)
DB2829-4428 14077170 1985 LD G Van - ALT. G DB2829-4507 Note 2 except (d)
DB2829-4437 23500273 1985 LD C/K Truck - CAL. C/K — —

Juniur,

Thanks again.. Taking the alternator in this afternoon to be looked at, and I will take the number with me and have them give me a price on it.. And I will see if I get dribbles of fuel, or just air, as yesterday it sat all day, and I haven't left yet this morning.

Brad