LP natural gas vs. gas diesel price for highway use

Once upon a time approx 20 years ago when there was less spread between LP and gasoline/diesel. There were many conversions to LP.
Now with the cost difference per btu now. One would expect LP conversions to re-appear?
2011 GM fleet vans, 3500 & 4500 trucks had a factory natural gas option.

Propane is still a big loser unless you live in some esoteric area where propane is unusually cheap.

Just got done defeating a proposal at our local school when the head overpaid dunces wanted to convert the school-bus fleet to propane.

Propane in central New York area - $2.70 when diesel is $3.20

New propane bus gets 4 MPG on propane.
New diesel bus gets 8 MPG on diesel.


Propane has 84,300 BTUs per gallon. 31,222 BTUs per dollar.

Diesel has 129,800 BTUs per gallon. 40,562 BTUs per dollar.

Propane bus goes 100 miles at a fuel cost of $67.50

Diesel bus goes 100 miles at a fuel cost of $40.

GM has been offering Express vans with the CNG option for a quite a few years. (5-6?) I don't see any around but are probably used by fleet owners where they do their own refueling in the company yard. As far as conversions are concerned, I'm sure there are a few companies doing it but the cost probably scares a lot of buyers away. It's going to have to be done by the big boys that have economy of scale going for them and then it will have to offer convenience to the motoring public equivalent to buying fuel at service stations the same as we do now. We haven't reached that point yet but it could come fast when it does.

I thought highway diesel was over $4 a gallon ?

Schwans has some fleet experience with propane.
Fleeting

Don't confuse CNG and LP. CNG is cheap, but the fueling equipment is very expensive because of the high operating pressures(3600+ PSI).

Fueling LP isn't expensive, but the fuel doesn't make sense $ wise.


If one gas station in 10 would set up for CNG, I think it would be a viable choice.

Highway Diesel in Central NY State is right at $4.00/gallon.
Today in Syracuse it's $3.97 - $4.05

Schools don"t pay any taxes on fuel

I just filled my 80 gallon tanks this morning in my Dodge-Cummins pickup. Oneonta NY (central NY), ZIP 13820. Diesel was $4.29 9/10 per gallon and gasoline was $3.67 9/10.

Also home heating oil today - $3.89 per gallon. Dyed and full-sulfur. So, even the dyed full-sulfur fuel with no highway tax is higher then gasoline at the pump.

Schools pay some taxes on highway fuel - just not all. In essence, schools pay nothing for anything since all they do is spend taxpayer dollars.

In New York - for fuel - we pay . . .

Excise tax - 8 cents per gallon
Petroleum Business Tax - 15.2 gas and 13.4 diesel
State sales tax - 8.3 gas and 7.1 diesel
Spill tax .3 of a cent for gas and diesel
Gasoline test tax - .05 of a cent
County sales tax - 8 for gas and 7 cents diesel

Schools in central New York also get a 10% rebate on propane fuel prices if they convert to propane in the buses. So, even with the rebate, using propane isn't anywhere near cost-effective.
And . . . I wonder where the funding for that magical 10% rebate comes from? It comes from the taxpayers.

The highway tax itself is moot since they get back the highway tax on any highway fuel they use.

School buses are exempt in most states and can use off road diesel.

With that in mind $3.20 seems a little high unless they are buying from a retail source. The wholesale price is lower but they would need their own tank and fuel pump and have to buy in bulk; 7000 gals or more at one time.

We got 7500 gals of dyed ULSD a couple of weeks ago. Delivered to our place and pumped into our above ground tank for $3.0614 per net gallon.
Net is tempature corrected gallons to 60 deg F.

local propane company uses diesel trucks,says propane would be to expensive for the highway.

(quoted from post at 13:27:58 11/10/11) Schwans has some fleet experience with propane.
Fleeting

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Schwans has been running propane since about 1980. Cost savings pays for the conversion in less than two years BUT they are a fleet running about 6500 trucks, most of them on propane. They are refueled at their own depots. They do not own the storage tanks and refueling equipment. That belongs to the company that provides the fuel. They purchase fuel on contract, 40 - 45 million gallons a year. As a result they are getting fuel delivered to their depots at a lower price than I can buy it for heating use, and their price includes the road use taxes. Because of the difference in weight of the fuel the LPG system and full tanks weigh about the same as a gasoline system with enough fuel to travel the same distance. A CNG fuel system filled to the same weight would only travel about half as far because of the heavier tanks required and CNG is not stored as a liquid, only under high pressure.

(quoted from post at 15:19:03 11/10/11) local propane company uses diesel trucks,says propane would be to expensive for the highway.

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Fuel is delivered to the Schwans depot here cheaper than the local coop can purchase it at wholesale prices. Volume dose make a big difference in price.

No, many states strictly forbid anyone using dyed fuel on the highway. That probably applies to 1/3 to 1/2 of the USA. I know that Louisiana and a few other states have had several exemptions over the years. But, the northeastern states are members of an area with special controls that some southern and western states don't suffer from - yet. Dyed fuel in much of the northeast is still high or medium sulfur, whereas much out west is low sulfur.

Last I checked Alaska had the most relaxed regs but that is changing.

Here in New York . . a police car is not legally considered a "motor vehicle" so I assume if there was a diesel cop car - it would have some exemptions. This is why many motor-vehicle traffic laws do not apply to police. They are not driving "motor vehicles." School buses here have to use low-sulfur diesel and never high or medium-sulfur dyed diesel.

Also, many areas in the US have gotten permsission to use dyed fuel during emergencies.

Also note that here in NY we have two dyed diesels. One is high sulfur and one is medium sulfur. Either would void warrantess in most new diesel systems.

Here's one example of what the Feds did during an emergency . . .

"WASHINGTON – The Department of the Treasury and the Internal Revenue Service, in response to the continued shortages of diesel fuel caused by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, will extend the penalty relief period during which dyed diesel fuel can be sold for use or used on the highway. The penalty relief will apply throughout the United States.

In IR-2005-104, released Sept. 15, 2005, the IRS announced it would not impose the dyed fuel penalty when dyed diesel fuel is sold for use or used on the highway and that this relief would remain in effect through Oct. 5, 2005. Today’s announcement extends that penalty relief through Oct. 25, 2005. Any dyed diesel fuel held by retailers or users on Oct. 25, 2005, can be used on the highway after that date."

Today - national averages in the USA . .
Gasoline - $3.78
Diesel - $4
Propane (highway fuel) - $3.10

These prices are average and with highway taxes.


I'd like to see some hard data in regard to what their (Schwann's) wholesale cost is for propane in bulk, as compared to what diesel would cost them. Considering that trucks running propane often get only 1/2 the MPGs that diesels do, the cost savings would have to be huge.

I DO know that there are some pockets in the USA where propane is 1/3 the price that in other areas. But those places are the esoteric minority. In those places, for now, yes - propane is a good deal. But that is not a mainstream thing.

I wonder if Schwans is also running the refridgeration equipment off the propane as to why they run it ?

And also with todays culture it is not always about the best deal but what makes the cleaner exhaust.

Would have to do the calculations for our area-
Propane is $2.09, Diesel is $4.15. I think propane might win out.

But as soon as you got everything set up for propane, price would skyrocket.

That's what our propane company does too - diesel trucks, so does some of the competition.

More to look at than just fuel cost.

The longevity of the engines would be about the same, maybe some edge for the diesel.

Another factor though is the oil change interval. Diesel engines would need several oil changes per XX miles compared to the LP engine.

I'm not sure how often an LP burner would need tuned up with today's modern ignition, but more so than a diesel for sure. On the other hand when a diesel does need injectors or pump work done the expense would be greater per incident.

Too bad legislation isn't enacted to tie the amount of road tax per gallon in with the fuel BTUs to level the playing field.

Kansas used to have a differential between LP and gasoline, however that changed in the 1970s.

The fire department I respond with uses dyed diesel in ALL of our diesel power truck.

Kent

There are other disadvantages of using Compressed Natural Gas. Years ago my agency did an experiment with a Chevy Caprice with a 350 V8 converted to use CNG (or the default, regular gasoline). The guys who had to use that car hated it, because the 3 huge CNG tanks almost completely filled the trunk, yet the range of those tanks filled at the start of a shift would only last about half of an 8 hour shift, and the only place they could be refilled was at the natural gas company's shop. Also the performance of the car using CNG was much less than the performance using gasoline, but that might have been a tuning problem. Some of the guys using that car also worried about what might happen if they were involved in a collision where they were rear-ended. The natural gas in the tanks was under extreme pressure. After about 6 months the experiment ended and the natural gas equipment was removed. It was decided that CNG was just not very practical for patrol car use, at least with the technology we had in the early 80's.

On the positive side, I think that the compressed natural gas was very inexpensive (partly because there were no road taxes on it). Also I bet the engine in that car would have lasted much longer than a normal carburated engine, due to much better fuel atomization, similar to recent port fuel injected engines.

This country has huge reserves of natural gas, of which only a small proportion is propane. It is too bad that methane will not liquify at reasonable temperatures and pressures, but it will not. Maybe someday technology will come up with a way to convert methane to a more energy dense liquid fuel that is stable at low, safe pressures and normal temperatures. Propane is a great fuel, fairly convenient and safe, and super high octane rated, but I don't think its price compared to diesel or gasoline comes out very well considering BTU's per given volume.

Technology marches on! Maybe someday using natural gas to power personal transportation will be practical and commonplace. I don't think it is these days, at least for most people.

$3.78 Gasoline 125,000 btu"s/gallon = $3.02/therm
$4.00 Diesel 140,000 btu"s/gallon = $2.86/therm
$3.10 Propane 92,000 btu"s/gallon = $3.37/therm

A therm is 100,000 btu"s

The winner is diesel
Second place is gasoline
Last place is propane

I still run a couple of 70's-early 80's pickups with dual fuel propane / gas systems and a couple of 454 Chevy repowered Olivers on propane.
They are simple reliable systems where plugs last almost forever with modern high energy electronic ignition systems.

I have not done a conversion for about 20 years, but noticed on the fuel injected engines, the modified computer to allow the engine to run on a propane fuel / air ratio was more $$ than all the rest of the hardware combined. This was on an aircleaner / mixer system, not even liquid direct injection like Schwan uses.