OT---Strange GFCI Problem?

Jiles · Sep 2, 2011

This is the first recepticle on a kitchen circuit with two other recepticles and two undercounter lights.
I had no problems before changing to GFCI but now when I turn the lights off, 3 out of 5 times, the GF will trip. In two years, it has never tripped when turning light or lights on. The wall switch is contained with a double recepticle in a double box.
I am leaving the wall switch on and controlling the florescent lights with their individual incorporated switches, and it has not tripped except when someone accidently flips the switch. Lights are used everyday.
What makes this even more aggrivating is that the recepticles are in a ceramic tile wall with two built in showers on the opposite wall.
Without listing what I have done---everything including lights, and three GFCIs, has been changed.
I am not comfortable with any type electrical problem, but should I just leave the switch on--or remove---or tear a wall up to address the fault?

Bob · Sep 2, 2011

How about using some lights other than the electrically "noisy" fluorescents... halogens, or perhaps LED's?

farmall300u · Sep 2, 2011

I have under cabinet florescent lights running through a GFI and use a wall switch with no problem.

1. I would not tear up a wall
2. On the florescent lights, did you change the ballasts? If not, I would buy one and keep swapping it until the GFI does not trip.
3. Does the GFI trip if only 1 lamp is turned on with the wall switch while the second lamp is off? Then do the other lamp.
4. Check all common and ground connections

okierob · Sep 2, 2011

i had a simuliar problem and I finally found a loose connection in the main panel box.Be sure and check in the main panel for loose screws on the ground and neutral bars.

Watashi · Sep 2, 2011

Feed the power to the switch for the lights from the hot wire coming into the box instead of from the load side of the GFI.

Anonymous-0 · Sep 2, 2011

Okierob hit the nail on the head. You have a loose connection somewhere in that circuit. It could be a ground, neutral, or hot wire. It may be a loose connection where multiple wires were crimped together.

John T · Sep 2, 2011

Okay, assuming all is working correctly?? Shes tripping cuz theres a leakage of current, EITHER AT THE GFCI OR DOWNSTREAM FROM WHATS FED OFF ITS LOAD SIDE, of current coming out on the HOT but NOT being returned by the NEUTRAL i.e. theres a ground fault somewhere and it only takes like 5 milliamps to cause the trip.

Id start by rewiring such that lights or whats NOT required to be GFCI protected is NOT fed off the LOAD side of the first GFCI in the circuit i.e. feed the light circuit from the HOT supply side circuit that serves the GFCI instead of them being fed from the GFCI"s load side.

However, receptacles by the kitchen sink etc must still be GFCI protected, so other downstream receptcles on that same circuit are still fed off the GFCI load side or are more individual GFCI outlets.

Id suspect EITHER a bad GFCI (its relatively cheap n easy to replace, but you already tried that) or else a ground fault on the LOAD side which may be on that lighting circuit

YOU REALLY NEED TO FEED THOSE LIGHTS NOTTTTTTTTT FROM THE GFCI LOAD SIDE Id try that and/or a new GFCI first as thats not expensive or hard or rocket science to accomplish.....

Sure bad connectiosn can cause all sorts of weird things buttttttttttt a "working properly wired" GFCI TRIPS MOSTLY DUE TO LEAKAGE CURRENT INSTEAD OF BAD CONNECTIONS so Id look there first especially where it feeds the lights and light switch

John T

Anonymous-0 · Sep 2, 2011

You may have to shut off that circuit to identify all the service points and then check them all including any appliances that are plugged into this circuit. Look for corroded connections and bugs and critters taking up residence in the boxes.

Jaden · Sep 2, 2011

One possible reason is that the neutral is also touching a grounded point. Works OK except on a GFCI protected circuit.

Offandgone · Sep 2, 2011

Bob hit it right in the first post. It is a known fact that florescent light don't play well with GFI. Plug a trouble light or any restive load into the GFI plug and see what happens. Sometimes this resitive load will dampen the spikes from the florescent transformer and will work.
Frank

Jiles · Sep 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 15:12:21 09/02/11) Bob hit it right in the first post. It is a known fact that florescent light don't play well with GFI. Plug a trouble light or any restive load into the GFI plug and see what happens. Sometimes this resitive load will dampen the spikes from the florescent transformer and will work.
Frank

That makes sense--I have three receptacles and a combination of fluorescent and incandescent bulbs in my shop, on a GFCI protected circuit with no problems.

dr sportster · Sep 2, 2011

Put the lights to the line side of the GFI or splice. They are not required to be on that and will keep doing it. As far as opening a wall ;Heres some advice ; A wire does not go bad from point A to point B unless there is some outside factor which can be a number of things;Heavy vibration, chemical,screw ,nail, saw,demolition of other structure etc. but otherwise you can pretty much find when you open the wall an undamaged cable. Because without outside factors there is nothing that can go wrong with that cable. Even in rusted BX the conductors will still work.So unload the lights from the GFCI. I read the thread and I think you have enough advice to fix it without wall damage. Good Luck

Jiles · Sep 2, 2011

"JohnT"--These lights are next to the sink. Rewiring would involve tearing into wall. Do you think that a GFCI BREAKER instead of a GFCI receptacle would work any better?
I dought that it would????

Jiles · Sep 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 06:45:25 09/02/11) How about using some lights other than the electrically "noisy" fluorescents... halogens, or perhaps LED's?

That is a good thought!

dr sportster · Sep 2, 2011

Rewiring should not involve opening a wall the splice is in a box and if done to code all boxes are accessable. Find where the lights are spliced and feed it before the GFI using the same circuit just keeping the countertop receptacles GFI protected on the load side.[ I don't really know how to spell accssable .]

M-MAN · Sep 2, 2011

The GFCI breaker won't help you. Tried that in my bathroom years ago. It's the flouresent lights that are the problem. Don't know if it's the starter or ballast but GFCI's don't like them. Change the light fixtures and your problem will most likely go away.

Easy way to be positive would be to kill the power, unhook the flouresent light wires where they attach to the light fixture and cap them off. Turn the power back on and you'll know for sure.

huntingreen2day · Sep 2, 2011

If it is a kitchen small appliance circuit the lights are not supposed to be on it anyway.

John T · Sep 2, 2011

Even a GFCI breaker trips upon a leakage and thats happening somewhere in the circuit so its the circuit thats a problem NOT the GFCI assuming the GFCI is okay.

Still if you remove the first GFCI and see what loads are on its load side and if you can figure out some are lights and switch them up to the hot supply side you may be able to fix the problem.

Of course, the GFCI may well be fine but theres a leak somewhere??? and Id bet it sin the lighitng circuit

John T

Geo-TH,In · Sep 2, 2011

GFCI's will react to some inductive devices like motors and transformers. This is why a refrigerator are not to be on a GFCI. When the power is turned off to any device that have coils of wire, a reverse EMF is generated and this can cause GFIC's to trip. It's not a bad GFCI. The GFCI is just doing it's job.

Jiles · Sep 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 19:00:10 09/02/11) GFCI's will react to some inductive devices like motors and transformers. This is why a refrigerator are not to be on a GFCI. When the power is turned off to any device that have coils of wire, a reverse EMF is generated and this can cause GFIC's to trip. It's not a bad GFCI. The GFCI is just doing it's job.

I have heard of that but have never experienced it. I have two refrigerators that have been running for three years on GFCIs, and they are not dedicated circuits.
I have all my shop protected with GFCI receptacles and GFCI Breakers and have never had a problem. I guess I may someday have a problem because I have talked to a lot of people that have.
As my OP stated--this circuit has ONLY outlets and lights.

Offandgone · Sep 2, 2011

Not all refrigerators are the same and may not all induce the same spikes on the line. As I stated earlier sometimes a restive load will make it work and your refer may have a restive lode of its own.
Frank

barnE · Sep 2, 2011

If your outlets and lights are sharing a common neutral, that will cause this type of problem. Only thing I have not seen discussed above. Dave

Pete in MD · Sep 2, 2011

About 12 years ago I installed an under cabinet fluorescent light which is powered with a factory installed 2-wire lamp cord. It's plugged into a GFCI recepticle. I interupted the lamp cord with a single pole switch mounted in a shallow box under the cabinet. It has never tripped the GFCI. I just tested the GFCI and it works like it should.
I think your problem is in the wiring somewhere or maybe the switch. Have you tried switching the light feed to the Line side of the GFCI as John T suggested?

buickanddeere · Sep 3, 2011

As previously stated. If somebody has swapped line
with neutral somewhere on receptacles, anywhere
downstream of the 120/240 supply transformer. There
can be phantom trips.
Same goes for where somebody has swapped neutral
and ground. Also if a ground wire was used as a
neutral or a neutral as a ground.
Even if everything is perfect and even ballast or
wiring with a slight leak to ground. The GFI will on occasion trip on inrush startup loads.

Jiles · Sep 3, 2011

(quoted from post at 19:06:59 09/03/11) As previously stated. If somebody has swapped line
with neutral somewhere on receptacles, anywhere
downstream of the 120/240 supply transformer. There
can be phantom trips.
Same goes for where somebody has swapped neutral
and ground. Also if a ground wire was used as a
neutral or a neutral as a ground.
Even if everything is perfect and even ballast or
wiring with a slight leak to ground. [b:9b66aa1ab8]The GFI will on occasion trip on inrush startup loads.

/b:9b66aa1ab8][b:9b66aa1ab8]The GFI will on occasion trip on inrush startup loads[/b:9b66aa1ab8]---In two years, it has never tripped when turning lights on---only when turning off.

Anonymous-0 · Sep 3, 2011

Try replacing the switch. I have had experience with a switch that had a high impedance to ground in the on position. Frank

OT---Strange GFCI Problem?

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