Need a brick wall to bang my head against....RANT

After today I gotta vent a little. Long story but I'll try to keep it short as possible.

Pulled an engine out of a D6 CAT back on 4/12 and had back home, torn down, and all parts to the machine shop within a week. Typical turn around time at the machine shop is 2 to 3 weeks unless they are extreemly busy. In nearly 20 years of dealing with these guys I've never had a problem, had to call to rush them, or anything. Fast forward three weeks, I call to check progress and am told the machine they do the block work on is down with electrical issues, but will be fixed and going the next week. Call the next week, still down but will be going the next week. Block is still in line to be done but they are having to do everything with the portable machine so it's taking them longer to go down the line to get everything done. This went on til about three weeks ago when they said it would be done, for sure, by the end of the week. Everything else I took to them, head, crank, etc I had been told was already done. Get a call Friday before last saying the block was done but the head, which was supposed to already have been done, hadn't actually been done and that when they started on it they discovered it was cracked and not repairable. Ten minutes after that I get another call saying they can't find piston and liner kits for it through their supplier so I need to go ahead and order them and the gasket kits also.

So, I've now got a first time customer that had been told everything was done and all we were waiting on was the block that I now have to call and tell that he needs a $2500 head. Got lucky and found the head and picked it up this past Friday, got the gasket kits first of last week, but still haven't seen the piston and liner kits I ordered the same time the gasket kits were ordered.

Also talked to the machine shop Friday and was told the block still wasn't done but that all that was left was to surface it and they'd have the machine they were using to do that opened up and it would be ready to go yesterday (Monday). So when the customer called this morning to check progress I told him that everything was 'supposed to be done' and he could go ahead and call them with the payment. So he calls and is told that the block still isn't done but will 'be done in the morning'.

To make matters worse I get a call this afternoon from the place I had ordered all the other parts asking why I had refused delivery on A piston and liner kit. Turns out they put the address for the trucking company where they sent the head on the shipping lable and sent it UPS to the trucking company. Then to add insult to injury I discovered in our conversation about why the part went back to them that when I said I need piston and liner KITS for this engine (a 6 cylinder) what was heard and shipped was A piston and liner kit (just one). Since I've been ordering parts by getting quotes and letting the customers pay for them I then had to call the customer back and tell him that he needed to call and pay for 5 more piston and liner kits at around $200 each.

I've been working on equipment for most of my life and have been in for myself for over 12 years now and have never had a fiasco like this happen. I understand things like the machine shops machine breaking down but what I can't understand is being lied to about things being done. What really pi$$es me off is that they turned me into a lier every time I told my customer that a part was done and then he got told the same part was no good or told that the part wasn't done yet. That, to me is unexcusable but I'm stuck with the fact that these guys are the only ones around that can do a BIG engine like I some times do so I can't b!tch too much because they really don't care if they lose one guys business or not.

In the end all I can do is pray my customer will continue to be understanding about the whole situation. I know he is already upset about the way things have turned out and I'm in complete agreement with him as I have never run into a mess like this before. It's just not the way I work, it's just not the way I do things, and I'm seriously about to start looking for a brick wall to bang my head against if things don't start going right.......

Hopefully I can pick up the block tomorrow, and my piston and liner kits will be here by the end of the week and I can get back to getting things done and business as usual...if not does anyone know of a good stout brick wall??????.

Been there, Done that. All you can do is hope that your customer is very understanding. Other than that about all you can do if this starts to become a reoccurring issue is extend your lead times and completion dates. I have seen or heard of just about every excuse/delay possible in the past 5+ years. The one that really gets me going is when a RAPID REPLACEMENT DAMAGE REORDER due to freight damage takes 6 weeks longer than the original shipping time. Try explaining that one to the customer.

I guess the thing to do when you have a job as big as this is to document every phone call you make to them, who you spoke to, and what they said. Better yet, try to do all this with emails if possible, and you can easily show a chain of evidence for poor service. I'd ask for some adjustment on the labor in this situation.

Seems like when one thing goes wrong with a job, it compounds itself and everything imaginable goes wrong.

Best you can do is to tell him you agree with him and be straight about it all. Unfortunately it is your word against the machine shop but hopefully he will see your side of it as it would seem to be the true one.

Having a breakdown is one thing, outright lying to a customer is absolutely unacceptable. That is one of the reasons I left my last job, the boss was so used to telling fibs, he did so even when he didn't have to. That doesn't fly with me!

I think after the second or third time I was misinformed, I would have turned the customer loose on them.
Reminds me of an incident I had back in the dark ages. I was just cutting my teeth, so to speak, when it came to wrenching, and had the head done off my car at a local machine shop. They had a good reputation. Got it back together and it skipped. Didn't know what to do so I drove it for a few days. One day I got po'd and put my foot in it and listened. After a minute I decided to take a chance. Went by the Ford dealer and picked up one exhaust valve and a head gasket. Pulled that sucker under the tobacco barn shed and pulled 'er down. Sure enough, they had overlooked a slightly warped valve. 'Bout a year later, same engine, same machine shop, bored .030 over, ground crank, etc. Reassembled engine, back in car, cranked 'er up. Oil poured out the plug in the camshaft bore in back of engine. Had to pull engine back out to fix. Never went back to said machine shop.
Oh yeah, don't know about a brick wall, but one of those big engine blocks should suffice.

I've run into situations like that in construction, its the same aggravation, once things escalate, because everything turns critical, it is a snowball effect, takes more time and resources to make things right, than it would have if things were not let to become screwed up.

You have to look back at things like this and understand how they start, make the necessary corrections. There is a way to do business and a way not to.

When outsourcing services like a machine shop, you need to have a clear understanding and or a contract, this is business. You are a customer to them, do they take that seriously ? What about your own responsibility to the customer? The job depends on them to rebuild an engine correctly and promptly, and for you to do the same on the installation. Outline specifics, deadlines and prices, or go elsewhere until you find a shop that is capable of what you need, you are in fact brokering engine work to said shop, customer paying direct is one method, I've been successful doing that, sometimes it helps because, you are not financing or funding things, though it may portray an image that things are tight and you may be a "fly by night" to some, I would argue to anyone that cash flow is absolutely the single most important thing in any business so what works is what works regardless. I often times had customers pay direct, not without some issues on occasion, but they don't get marked up on materials, however my labor is what it is take it or leave it, non negotiable. When you are out both material and labor, that deadline is critical so you can get paid in full, so you have to get it done, had you paid that shop or were to, you would have a deadline and be all over them when they did not meet the deadline. I would not hire a shop that was incapable of obtaining the necessary parts for their work, which I assume is taking the engine apart, cleaning, measuring, machining and reassembling with parts you specify or they will back up, being CAT, genuine CAT or aftermarket etc. Getting in the middle of that like you describe is a mistake.

I can tell you I've had subcontractors literally wreak havoc on some of my jobs, subs I did not hire or award contracts to, others I have. It takes a good manager and very strong, precise, accurate follow through to get over the hump, often times such problems are needless.

I don't like outsourcing many things, because you do not have control over the reins anymore, sometimes you have to, and your problem with that is machining, a specialty requiring all that machinery/tooling so you have to partner with a shop, one that does not pull that crap, yes I understand things happen, but that kind of delay is too long, much too long, sheesh, like CAT does not make kits, Regal, who else etc. It's on you the whole time, your customer should have a deadline and a delivery, period.

There is a diesel shop right across the street from me, I've known them a long time. I have recieved their work, rebuilt engines, transmissions etc., always top notch work. You bring him an engine for an overhaul, you get back a properly done job, ready to install if they don't do it for you, be it heavy equipment, over the road tractors, and what have you. He is expensive, thorough and highly experienced, the job is done right and they stand behind their work. Many places with fleets of trucks or equipment use him, smaller outfits may not like the prices, it is what it is, down time for you customer, and all the hoopla with the phone calls, the let downs, just tarnishes things Wayne, I would suggest rearranging things so you know that you don't have to get in the middle of this kind of nonsense, think about the time you have wasted.

I used to hate that kind of disorganized crap on my jobs, immediately taking action, terminating contractors, firing people, whatever it takes, seems half the world works like this, absolutely important to start off with the right people and follow through, never give em too much "lee-way" sp ? (LOL). I have a distinct hatred of sloppy contractors who don't perform, I learned after many years to grab the bull by the horns and avoid these situations from the start. At the time of award, hire or what have you, people either understand me or I find those that do, one must ring the bell loud and clear, at the onset of any hired work, or the results you get may be far from what you expected. "Inspect Your Expect" is how I look at it. Forget the brick wall and the associated discussion here, make the necessary changes and get to work LOL !!!!

SURE makes a re-man engine sound attractive! (IF available.)

I was just curious about the head. It apparently wasn't leaking when you took it off; nobody knew it was cracked until several weeks later... I wonder what was so bad about it that it couldn't be fixed. Fritz.

I feel your pain Wayne. The worst thing here is that you have been doing business there for 20 years so you had every reason to expect predictability. Sounds like someone who is not really interested is directing things there, instead of whoever you used to be able to rely on. After a bad experience at my local CNH dealer I took my primary work "horse" 120 miles away to the dealer that had sold it originally and had worked on it just before I bought it. They told me they couldn't get to it 'till next week, but they knew that I needed it for haying so they would get right on it. End of next week they told me the Mechanic was away at school that week but he would get right on it the following week. Following week they got on it found all it was was the $5300.00 hydraulic pump, but not to worry they would get a reman for a lot less. Following week they have been searching on line for reman. next week. Next week had to work on somebody else's tractor. searched for parts for mine. had to buy new one for $5300.00. Following week they get it and put it in. Testing PTO won't engage. Get at it next week. Following week need a $2.90 piece of tube. Ordered it wrong connector. Get new connector. that was yesterday. Week seven to replace a Hydraulic pump. They are supposed to have it done tomorrow.

Lot of headaches there Wayne . Joys of being self employed , you get to come up with ALL the answers,and get ALL the headaches . I always make sure to pin folks down on parts calls and outside labor . Document time , who spoke to etc . Also I try to leave the customer with only one person to deal with ,ME . Big jobs , customer pays deposit , I order parts .I mark them up some to make a fair profit . Good luck with that mess,hope it turns out well .

OOOOH!!! So that's where he is now! My machinist moved next to you!! If you find my... not rants I hope, just extra long posts of the trouble I had with my x favorite shop, here and the 2 fergie forums, the same exact story. I am learning to do -everything possible- right here at home... 'cause it isn't wasting time to do it yourself anymore. Not with guys like this....

I've never had a reason to doubt these guys ability to do any possible repair needed, be it to a head or a block so I don't doubt them on their diagnosis on the part. Plus I know the old heads with precombustion chanbers were prone tocrack anyway and often couldn't be repaired. That said I've pulled several heads over the years that were 'running' with no problems, til the cause of the rebuild occured, but were damaged to the point that I wouldn't chance putting them back on a rebuilt engine. When it's my butt I'm having to cover it's always better safe than sorry.

As far as any prior problems indicating a cracked head before the engine was pulled, I have no idea there as I never saw it run. When I was finally called in the machine had been sitting for nearly three years after they began having problems with it. Another independent and a CAT dealership mechanic had both been hold of it and did everything from having the injection pump rebuilt to changing injectors, etc, etc. The only thing I was told about the thing was that they both said it had 'low compression'. Between the two of them though they never caught the fact the turbo was bad.... Anyway, having set for that long with the valve cover loose it had gotten water in it and the lifters were stuck in their bores so there was no way I could confirm anything on compression or anything else, and had no choice but to pull it for a complete rebuild.

Since the economy got so bad I've been letting the customer take care of all the parts, etc and until now haven't had any problems. Typically all I do is get the parts list together and have it quoted on my account and then just have the customer pay for it directly. It saves me the chance of not getting paid for parts, worrying about taxes on the markup, etc, and also saves the customer a few dollars because I don't have to mark them up to cover my costs, and too they wind up with a copy of the parts reciepts for their taxes. After this time I'm highly considering the partial payment up front from this point on. My thing here was that this was a new customer and I didn't want to start the process out with him feeling like I didn't trust him as he was as highly reffered to me by a long time customer as I was to him by the same customer....and he was OK with doing things the way we did for the very reasons I mentioned.

Always check that first but in this case it is a D333 out of an old D6 CAT so there is/was no such creature available that I could find.

Even though I always check on a reman just to cover all bases, in an application like this even if a reman was available it would typically need to be in the form of a short block due to the application specific parts like oil coolers hanging on the outside, accessory drives, etc, etc. Even as a short block the cost would typically be much greater for it than the cost to rebuild the old one, and if an long block was found then you'd be taking off parts just to put others back on. Long block or short, on top of the initial cost there is then the added expense of changing everything over from the old block to the new one to make it work in the specific machine.

By the time all this is added up a reman isn't even a viable option in a case like this unless the customer is losing alot of money each day the machine sets and is willing to pay the extra for the short turn around time getting the machine back up and running. Been there, done that too and I'll admit it is nice when the customer has that much money to spend, but in the long run I lose out on labor for the rebuild.....

In this case I've dealt with the same machine shop for nearly 20 years with absolutely no problems so I didn't anticipate any this time. I do the teardown and rebuilding, all they do is the needed machine work to the engine parts I take to them. Even though they don't do the rebuild itse;f I've always let them get the basic gasket kits, bearings, pistons and liners, etc for me. This is a service they have always provided for all their customers and it works out great. One they know exactly what they did to the block, crank, etc so when they order parts they get .010 bearings if needed, they get the right liners for the block to go with whatever work they did, etc, etc. Basically it keeps me from having to go behind them and spend time making measurements to insure sure I get parts that fit exactly what they did. Too by buying like they do they can get quality parts from Clevite or whoever in suffient quantity to get discounts that they can pass on to the customer and still put on some markup and make a dollar for themselves off parts too.

Basically the whole situation has always been a mutually beneficial situation for all parties involved...until this time......

As far as 'firing' them or whatever about my only choice there is to simply not take then anything I don't have to. They are the only game in town for many, many miles around that can do a complete engine from the block work, to the head work, to grinding the crank, etc, etc There are numerous 'auto' machine shops around that can handle auto engines but when it comes to the industrial/construction stuff these guys are it. The closest place I know that does anything close to what these guys do is about 2 hours away and even then their 'capacity' is limited to say ain inline 6 cylinder out of a semi. In my case I don't get that many BIG engines but over the years Dad and I have done a couple of Murphy diesels as well as the engine out of a D9G. Either of those engines is way to big for anybody but my current shop to handle. In other words I can get upset about the deal and express some discust with the situation but I can't light any fires and burn any bridges without the potential of hurting myself in the future......This makes things REALLY frustrating as you might imagine.........Thankfully instead of a brick wall I've got you guys to rant to and 'bang my head against' instead of having to use a brick wall. Thankfully just venting like this can actually be a bit cathardic.......

Now I'm just looking for the end of the week and 6 piston and liner kits so I can really get back to work and do things like I am used to doing them, like they should be done, and get this guy up and running........Til then, thanks for the input.........

Wish I could do it all myself as you suggest. This has all drug out so long and had me so frustrated that my wife made the same suggestion....Unfortunately she didn't understand that the cost to set up an engine machine shop with even 1/3 the capability these guys have would be extreemly cost prohibitive, even if you bought nothing but old equipment. Heck these guys have another block machine setting in a corner that they bought brand new for close to $80,000 that had problems from day one that they never got fixed. Though it can be run by someone that knows where to hit it with a hammer (literaly) to make it work right, it has been sitting right where it was installed for about 15 years or more and is now covered in 'stuff'. So, take that much for a block machine, add on for the crank grinder, line boring setup, all the special tooling for checking heads, etc, etc, etc, and your probably looking at a minimum of $250,000 just to get an initial setup. Like I said, very cost prohibitive for someone like me who is already struggling and trying to rebuild a business that was nearly killed by effects of the bad economy and the loss of several long time customers, also due to the economy.

I hear you, just getting the right parts nowdays is a hige PITA, and dealerships like that are the kind that ultimately get work sent to me....Personally I think we need more of them like that...LOL

As far as my prediciment the same guys have been running/working at this place for 20 years plus. The way I understand things the owner has things set up in such a manner that the employees are currently bought into the place, or at least will become the owners when something happens to him. In other words they have every reason for things like this NOT to happen. That's what has me so frustrated right now as I simply can't understand the reasoning behind the way things have gone with this whole deal, especially the contunied 'misinformation' I've been continually given on the status of the pieces.....Just doesn't make sense..........

Like I've explained in answering other responses I can't afford to personally 'burn any bridges' with these guys although I do intend to let them know I'm not happy with the way things have been handled with this situation. As for the customer I told him point blank that wether he needed it or not, he had my blessing to call and say anything he damm well pleased and to express all his anger with the way they have handled situation. If that hurts me then so be it but what's right is what's right and what they have done so far simply isn't right. Unfortunately once you take something like a block to a machine shop your pretty much at their mercy as trying to take it away from them and to somewhere else in the middle of a job is flat out asking for problems...and I wasn't looking for problems here...but they found me anyway....Oh well, what'll you do but rin and bear it.....and hope the customer will be understanding and be able to do the same, at least to some extent....

Your right... I wouldn't chance it either

The one thing I learned from many similar situations is to promise nothing until I have the item in front of me, complete and in good order. Otherwise its just a case of Im the poor middle man and know nothing. Doesnt matter if its prices, parts orders, parts availability, or even quotes on a job. In fact, all I quote any more is a price per hour and a minimum thats good at todays fuel price.

R U in North Carolina? In the old yankee states, mass, conn, rhode island, all the shops, even the smallest job shops are going to CNC machines, the exact stuff you need is going to scrap yards by the truck full. A lathe with a big swing, and there is a fwd some one on the MF? page sent me, custom small machinery stuff, a belt journal turner, $500! takes plain sanding belts, a horizontal shaver- grinder, a vert miller, which is the only thing I use often, my bridgeport is even an arbor press, magnaflux kit, dip tank... take a zero off you magic number, and search the web. Bargains are out there. BTW, here's some pics of the Bridgeport being a spring compressor and home spun valve job machine...

Accidently just found it. search for 'cylinder head supply.com' I can't paste stuff here....