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Central air question

L

larry@stinescorner

Well-known Member
Got a quote for our cottage,,its 970 sq ft

To put plywood ,air handler,,vents in attic,and carrier unit outside,,7,900 dollars

He mentioned heat pump is 1000 more

What is good about heat pump,??,I know nothing about them

We currently have a good oil heat furnace with hot water baseboard system

Any advice,,opinions etc,,will be appreciated ,,


Thanks in advance
 

Heat pump started as an electric company gimmick 40 years ago to sell more product. Most homes near me have them because that is what the big manufacturers sell, but the units are generally hard-wired for the "emergency" natural gas furnace to supply heat because none of us can afford that much electricity.

Also, a heat pump has a lower outdoor temperature limit hence the need for another furnace. Not sure what that limit is but IIRC it was not all that cold.

If you have natural gas available there is no contest - go for the gas. If yu have propane or oil already installed then go with that.
 
larry, im going off the rails on this but what about thru the wall ac units? my rental buildings are about 850 sq feet per apartment, 2 bedroom one bath. 2/12000 btu units, 220 v do the job. they are about 750 or so per unit. the 14000 btu units have a heat cycle. in them also. as you already have baseboard heat, this would do the job and save a chunk of cash.
 
Just went through this, we are in WNY, so 0 weather is not unusual. We have the same thing, oil baseboard and a fairly new boiler. Wanted to replace the window AC unit. It was noisy and either too cold or not cold enough. We put in mini-splits(ductless AC), one heat pump and 2 air handlers. Since adding heat to the unit was only a couple of hundred more, we went with it. Have not used the AC yet but am very happy with how the heat works. Takes about a minute from turning it on till we have heat. I am sure it is expensive heat. Our heat pump is 100% efficient down to 0F and stops working at -25F. The AC is supposed to be 30% cheaper than the window unit. Now the bad news.....They are expensive. I researched and shopped. Ended up with a Lennox, 15 year warranty on the HP. 3 ton HP and 2 1.5 ton air handlers, after the rebate from electric company and all the savings I could find it was under $7000 installed. Text or call me at 5eight5-808-296four.

Bill
 
The only way heat pumps make real sense is to use geothermal heat source. that can be as simple as a pump to ditch well, or a pump and reinject, but with air as a heat source they don't make sense. Jim
 
Ck out the ductless air systems
We have gas fired hot water heat in a two story with finished attic, well over 2000 sq feet
So adding ducts would be major project
Last year, we put in a ductless system with one interior unit at the top of an open stairway.
I expected to have to close off some rooms on a hot day but never had to
We do have ceiling fans in the bedrooms and used floor fans to move air around
We actually use the fans less with the new system
Ours is a Mitsubishi
Operating cost last year less than $300.
Pgh Pa area
Good luck
 


It appears to me from the information given that it is a perfect place for a Mitsubishi Mini Split. You would save a lot on the installation not needing the attic air handler. HOWEVER, it depends on the building layout because the mini split is a one spot unit. The cooled air has to get where you need it by convection only.
 
Whether a heat pump makes sense has a lot to do with your climate. Here is Southern NC they make perfect sense. The emergency heat almost never comes on.

When I lived in the most Northern part of Virginia, I installed a heat pump with a propane gas furnace backup. AC in the summer, heat from the heat pump in the spring and fall. Gas furnace when the temperature was below 32 degrees. We loved it. I also installed it so when the thermostat was more than 2 degrees behind we got the gas furnace. So in the morning, when the programmable thermostat jumped from the night time setting of 60 degrees to 68 degrees, what we got was hot air from the gas furnace until the house came up to temperature, regardless of the outside temperature.

A heat pump is extremely efficient (~400%). It just moves heat from the outside to the inside, it does not actually produce heat like a furnace would. But electricity is more expensive than other heating fuels. You will have to look at your climate, energy costs, and run some numbers.

Another thing about heat pumps is that they have an almost constant outside temp to inside temp differential. When it gets colder outside, the air coming out of the heat pump gets colder. This is why a heat pump quits working when the temperatures outside approaches freezing. You run out of differential. Heat pumps also do not respond well to temperature cycling your house. When it is cold they just do not have enough excess capacity to bring a cold house up to temp.

Also since heat pumps run 3-4 seasons instead of just 1 for an air conditioner they do not last as long as a simple AC.

I just wanted to give you some real information instead of just poo pooing heat pumps. They have their place.

Cliff(VA) now (NC)

BTW I too would recommend a mini split in your instance whether it is AC or heat pump. Mini splits can be purchased that have more than one inside unit. I have seen as many as 3.
I am in the process of installing two mini split systems in my workshop. They are new, so I don't really have a lot of experience with them. But I got 4 tons of cooling (and heat since they are heat pumps) for $2K.
 
Larry, the further the North you go (average cooler temps) the less efficient air to air heat pumps become grrrrrrrrr Geothermal uses the heat of the earth down below the surface which may be around 56 degrees (beats zero) subject to depth and location so are more efficient BUT EXPENSIVE UP FRONT plus maintenance grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

This isn't scientific BUT HEAT PUMP HEAT IS COLD HEAT LOL and those that use them for heat know EXACTLY what I mean, but hey they work for Heat PLUS Cooling in the summer so that's a good thing.......Not so good further North for heat though !!

Non ducted (like heat wires or baseboard radiators) Pure Resistive electric heat (subject to utility cost) is very expensive (better grease your meter bearings) to operate (3.41 BTU of heat per Watt I believe) but saves in ductwork and cheap to install and maintain plus individual room t stats is an advantage. Another option is electric hot water and baseboard radiators.....

I have heated with wood, wood chips, corn, coal, fuel oil, resistive elec heat, heat pump, propane, but now have my favorite and most cost efficient (NOT withstanding when I cut my own wood of course) system which is DUAL FUEL HIGH EFFICIENCY NATURAL GAS AND HEAT PUMP. Mine is set so above 45 where its a bit more efficient I heat with Heat Pump but if colder High Efficiency Natural Gas. This (as based on local gas and elec cost) is cheaper to heat with than resistive elec heat in our area

Of course, there's no right or wrong answer to how to heat, there are many variables and costs and maintenance and cost of fuel and electricity and convenience plus a ton of other factors ITS ONES OWN MONEY AND HOW TO SPEND AS THEY CHOOSE. I love my Dual Fuel High Efficiency Natural Gas and Heat Pump for the cost and I am NOT going back and Im sure others love THEIR heat system based on THEIR choices. To each THEIR own yayyyyyyyyyyyyy

John T Ive had a lottttttttt of different heating systems in many farm homes the past 50 years, been there done that lol

PS as far as pure any pure warm feeling coal and wood were GREAT
 
Rather than upgrade to a heat pump, I'd go with a higher SEER (efficiency) rating. Contractors usually quote the lowest legal SEER because most folks look at the price, not the rating.

A heat pump might be useful if you winterize your hydronic heating system by draining and purging it. The heat pump would allow you to get some heat without having to refill the hydronic system.

I also strongly recommend you check out the ductless (aka mini-split) systems. A system with two indoor and one outdoor would do a pretty good job of cooling a 1000 sq. ft. cottage. They also make systems with four air handlers, which would probably allow you to have a cooling in all rooms. We use a two air handler system, one in the master bedroom and one for the rest of the house. Guests do get a bit warm if they visit in the summer.
 
Larry,
I'm guessing you have already made up your mind. Here's a rental.
1100 ft plus half basement. Electric baseboard. 3 kids two adults. $285 for the coldest month. Sub zero nights. Not above freezing day.

cvphoto84141.jpg

2200 ft half basement 2 car garage, new pole barn and old workshop. $157 FIXED monthly. Last year it was $158 fixed per month.
I would never run ductwork in attic that gets 160 plus in summer and outside temperature in winter. Some one will need to get in attic to service it.

Heat pumps , solar and wind in Texas all don't work when you need them the most.
You will be lucky air 25 degree warmer than room temperature with a heat pump. Cold and drafty.

The brick house was converted to total electric 20 years ago. No repairs. No maintenance contracts. Thermostats in each room. Garage is set to 55. House is set to 67 in winter. 78 in summer. It's my office.
 
Brick house wouldn't upload on first try.
I built the brick house around a house half the size one brick at a time. Used Anderson
cvphoto84144.jpg

Casement. insulated doors, even garage. R20 in walls and 15 inches of blown fiberglass in attic.

So Larry, what have you decided ?
George
 
FWIW many in the RV industry are installing mini splits in their motorhomes etc., and they indeed are more efficient then the standard RV Rooftop units........

John T
 
Split AC are like hanging half a window AC on the wall. And extremely expensive. Only RV owners can afford them.
George
 
One thing to be sure of, no matter which route you go.

BE SURE THAT THE THERMOSTATS ARE INTERLOCKED!!!!!!!

You don't want to be able to accidently have both heating & cooling running at the same time. That happened to a co-worker many years ago. My cooling bill as a sample was running around 25-30 bucks at that time. His bill one month with heat & cooling accidentally running at same time, fighting each other, was over 500 for same size house.
Willie
 
My CPAs heat pump screwed up. Something shorted out and his heat pump back up, electric heat, was running when he was air conditioning.
 
larry@stinescorner,

That quote is at the highest end + $100.
Sounds like like I don't want to do it price to me.

You will need a 2 ton unit, check the price of one. The attic units have and air handler.

Normally the only extra is duct work.

GUIDO.
 
> Split AC are like hanging half a window AC on the wall. And extremely expensive. Only RV owners can afford them. George

Well, George, I could afford a mini-split BEFORE I owned an RV. Now that I own an RV, though, I'm not so sure I could afford to buy one now.

I bought my Mitsubishi mini-split online and installed it myself. I did need to buy a vacuum pump as well. The price was quite reasonable and it's been working for five or six years now. Nothing else would really work in our quad-level house with hot water baseboard heat.
 

No basement for the utilities ,
Ductwork etc ?
They do make split though the wall systems with 1,2 or 3 evaporator units .
 
Mark
My BIL may have been the first HVAC dealer in Indiana to handle Mitsubishi units.

I'm glad I have a basement and don't have half a window unit inside my house.

Air to air HP in my area are a joke. I warned a friend. He went ahead and bought a conventional geat pump only to have a $500 dollar electric bill.
I told him to use only electric backup. Next month $250.

Heat pumps reverse freon to defrost. So during defrost you are air conditioning house and using electric backup. Paying twice.

I worked my way through college repairing furnaces and air conditioners at a Steel mill in northern Indiana. I'm not a fan of HP.
I know HVAC businesses in TH that won't sell HP.
No split unit in my house.
George
 
My heat/ac (lp gas) are in the rafters and all of the duct work. Insulated duct work and no problems with any of it,been there 19 years. Side note, the kids put in a ground source heat pump,they finally had the backup electric turned off. It is cheaper for them to turn on the LP fireplace when it get too cold for the heat pump. I know when it is time to turn on the AC because the service truck is at their house,same in the fall. BTW they have had no decrease in the utility bills at all. They are around year 7 with the heat pump.
 
I have 2 geo heat pumps, work great for cooling but worthless for heat. I put in an outdoor boiler and ran hot water to coils I installed in the return duct. I love a warm house in the winter!
 
> Mark My BIL may have been the first HVAC dealer in Indiana to handle Mitsubishi units.
> I'm glad I have a basement and don't have half a window unit inside my house.

George, central air is the way to go if you already have ducting or it will be simple to install new ductwork. But when it's impractical to install ductwork, the mini-split is a great solution. There's no way to compare them to a window unit: window units are LOUD and inefficient. Most of the Mitsubishi ductless units have SEER ratings of 20 or more, compared to a typical central AC which is down around 13. Window units don't even have SEER ratings.

You seem to want to lump all heat pumps and mini-splits together. They're not the same thing! Like it or not, heat pumps are going to be pretty much the standard for new construction anywhere natural gas is not available. And the newer heat pumps are pretty efficient; you can't compare the first-generation heat pumps from forty years ago to modern systems. Certainly north of the Mason-Dixon line you want your heat pump to have propane backup. That's a very economical solution. Sorry, but resistance electric heat is nuts in cold climates.
 
Mark,
It's your money, do what you want.
It's Larry's money he will do what he wants.
It's my money and I do what I want.

I'm right and you are wrong.
No you are wrong and I'm right.

Obviously you don't believe my electric bill is only $157 a month.


George
 


It is obvious that the mini split is simple to install. It is obvious that it will work well as AC only which is good because Larry tells us that he has a good FHW by oil heating system. A few minutes time will tell the price tale. In these days of impossible to find trades people a quick install is a very big part of the picture.
 
Im late again but for what its worth I installed a mini split in a new bed / bath a few years ago. About 600sqft 12000btu heat pump. I also installed 1kw of baseboard as a backup. The backup has been used maybe 8-9 times in 4 years.

Very comfortable,quiet and maybe 20 bucks a month to operate on average.

As to cost it was a DIY install using an offbrand unit. Less than $1000... had one problem with it when about 2 weeks old when the indoor unit fan failed. Pioneer dealer sent anew one overnight. Its been fine since.

Minisplits are really common outside the US and much cheaper than here.
 
At least three of there YouTube channels I subscribe to have installed their own Minisplit systems, two in RV Bus conversions and ABom79 in his machine shop. The DIY aspect and price have been prominent to begin with, then they just rave about how well the handle small spaces. MrCool is one online retailer of the DIY kits.

I am tempted to install one in our master bedroom, so my wife's summer sleeping temperature of 58F doesn't require keeping the whole house at 60F! Maybe I should just convert a walk-in-cooler...
 
I am tempted to install one in our master bedroom, so my wife's summer sleeping temperature of 58F doesn't require keeping the whole house at 60F! Maybe I should just convert a walk-in-cooler...
Click to expand...

Maybe that's the solution for my wife. I complain about her having to have her bedroom freezing and using 3 blankets. I moved into the other bedroom and she complains about my extra heater in there keeping it about 80 and I sleep with a sheet. Go figure. I got restless legs and can't handle the weight of blankets on them. She has the dog to sleep with and I don't have to worry about kicking the dog in the middle of the night.
 
It's well known here that Geo thinks heat pumps are the spawn of the devil. We've heard it over and over and over................

Yes they are not for everyone, but "here' I will replace mine with another if and when it craps out. "Here" my HP is metered at about 50% of the standard kilowatt rate. I don't expect it to be efficient in very cold weather, that's what the LP furnace is for. The 50% AC bill is the summer is why I really have it.
 

Run into such at work a lot . Women are complaining the AC is not working in the offices . First thing I do it take the loudest
Complainer and show her all the baseboard and portable heaters that are still turned up to Max from last winter and forgotten about .
 
In addition to my current little unit experience, mentioned in my earlier post, I have had a couple of other units. One from 74-77, and later another home with two, eupstairs and one downstairs from 80-98. All worked well, except for an installer screw up ruining the reversing valve overheating it when brazing the lines on. The first one had resistance heat backup. The second pair used propane furnaces.

They don't 'feel' warm, but heat the house by moving lots of warm air instead of a little hot air like a fuel furnace. Very comfortable as long as you don't expect to stand over a register to warm up.

Current models will provide 3 times as much heat per kilowatt as resistance heat. But, they have moving parts and don't last forever. My experience is in OK, which had much milder winters than IN, Il, MN etc.
 
Ken They don't 'feel' warm, but heat the house by moving lots of warm air instead of a little hot air like a fuel furnace. Very comfortable as long as you don't expect to stand over a register to warm up.

AMEN to that my friend exactly what I meant in my post when I said Heat pump heat is cold heat lol HOWEVER I just use mine when its above 45 degrees as they are more efficient there versus when its real coldddddddddddd brrrrrrrrrrrr and my High Efficiency Natural Gas takes over. Im sooooooo glad I don't have to resort to straight resistance emergency backup heat then as the bearings in my meter would start smoking lol

Take care yall KEEP WARM the best you can

John T
 

I haven't had to replace anything on my electric baseboard in 20 years. They will
last me a lifetime.

Heat pumps have an average 15-year lifespan.

When you need a heat pump the most, they don't work.

heat pumps start to lose efficiency at around 40 degrees F and become less efficient
than furnaces at around 25 degrees F. Heat pumps continue to be effective at cooling
the indoors, even at high temperatures. In the South, it rarely gets below 25
degrees.

Last winter I had over 3 weeks of below freezing temps and night got close to zero or
below.

U.S. Department of Energys Climate Zone Map), a heat pump might be a good choice,
but if youre in zones 4 through 7, a furnace will probably be your best bet.

I think Larry needs to consider what zone he lives in.

Heat pumps need a backup heat source. Most people have electric backup, resistive
heat, just like mine.

A geo heat pump will work all the time, ground temps are around 55. What's the
lifespan of a geo??? How problematic are leaks in the ground loop? What's the cost
of a geo?

I used to repair AC and furnaces. Furnaces only break down when you need them the
most on the coldest night, weekends, holidays, you are in Florida in the winter. Many
times you will be without heat for days before repairman gets there. Sometimes longer
before he gets parts. AC same way.

My central is 2.5 ton 20 years old Rudd seer 12, R22, which was the best I could get
back then. It cost me $20 to replace the compressor contactor.

My last central was over 30 years old. Heat pump put more house on the compressor,
shortens lifespan.

Do the math, I can't see enough savings enough to consider a heat pump where I live.

I believe in low tech insulation, good windows, good doors.

25,000 brick 4# per brick, plus motor is over 100,000# of thermal mass. That's the
same as 50,000 pounds of water. A lot of thermal mass. The brick take a long time to
cool off and a long time to heat up. If it 60 at night and 80 in the day, my house
stays at 70 without the AC.

I've lived in this house for 44 years. Duke offered me a deal. $158/mo for 12 months.
Last years annual electric bill $1896. This year $157/mo. $1884.

What did your heap pump cost?
Prorate the replacement cost of your heat pump over it's estimated lifetime. Add in
your repair bills. Some people also get a service contract, add that in too.

So How much is your annual electric bill and annual estimates for replacement/repair
cost?

It's your money. It your choice.

Geo.
 
Yep, no matter how you get there, insulation, equipment, thermal mass etc, the real issue is (cost per KWH*KWHs used).

Without knowing those things it is impossible to compare any of the other contributors.

BTW, Have you calculated the cost at today's prices for 25000 bricks installed? Might make mini splits look downright cheap.

I've got brick and rock also, but I doubt that I would install them if building new. Just too pricy.
 
Like JohnT said, HP are cold heat source.
If your inside temp is 65, you will be lucky to get 90 degree discharge.
Add in wind chill, that's cold heat.

Would you recommend Heat pumps?
geo.
 
Yes, that is why a lot of folks with heat pump installations, especially retrofits, are not happy. Duct work undersized 'cause they reused the fuel furnace ducts
 
30 years ago brick were $0.24 delivered. No one paid me to put the brick on my house. No one paid me to double the size of my house.

Bottom line. What's your annual electric bill?
cost of heat pump? repair bills, service contract?
What's the size of your house?
 
(quoted from post at 15:51:36 04/07/21) 30 years ago brick were $0.24 delivered. No one paid me to put the brick on my house. No one paid me to double the size of my house.

Bottom line. What's your annual electric bill?
cost of heat pump? repair bills, service contract?
What's the size of your house?
Click to expand...


Geo, I don't think that you are very close to "bottom line". Perhaps you could get closer if you went back and read Larry's OP again.
 
showcrop
Larry's post:

He mentioned heat pump is 1000 more

What is good about heat pump,?

Perhaps you could get closer if you went back and read my first post again.

No on heatpump.
No on ductwork in attic.

I still standby that post.
George
 
When we had our house built in 1997,we chose heat pump due to no gas being available on our farm.We live in north east Ohio.When our system started leaking freon last year,it cost us $6700 to replace it giving a cost of $24 per month.It is true we do not have high tempurature heat coming from the ducts,but it has no trouble keeping the house comfortable.Our electric bill in the summer is about $80,and the highest in the winter gets close to $200.This is in a 1700 square foot house with electricity at 0.112 per KWH.
 


correctly designed ducts and registers... what chill????You continuously quote a pist poor designed system. And since the units go to low fan speed in the heat mode, no matter the source.

IN.... a correctly insulated house with a correctly sized and designed system, non of those problems exist. There is NO cold/hot air as the house is at 74 +- degrees year around.

In you keep in at 60 degrees in the winter, then yes, the air will fill cold. There will be NO magic warm spot to go stand in front of. But then why would you expect that unless you have a poorly designed system where are the heat/cooling come out of one source/duct and everywhere else is off temp...Modern duct work removes chills and registers keep the air dispersed evenly.

And in most RV's in winter, they are poorly insulated and ceiling heat from the two roof units is not enough.. the upper half of the rv is warm, and the floor is cold.. very cold... where the propane heat from the floor vents would displace that. very luxurious....... but again... poor design in RV's and unless you have a pony bottle of propane, your 30 gal tank might make a week or two at best. Due to weight, most rv's dont have double pane windows or much insulation....So your main source is usually electricity only... saving propane for cooking and water heating on our motor coach.

Very High efficiency HP's with very high seers are common in the south and save a lot of money. variable speed fans inside and out, variable displacement compressors mean the $$$$s are kept low. However the ductless units can be better in their inverter technology for seasonal cooling and heating on the moderate days. Our hp saves us around $50 to $150 a month currently AND we only have around two moderate months a year.

Correct questions are... How many heating/cooling days above 30 degrees vrs below 30 degrees? How are you insulated? Do you have natural gas? Cost per kw? Cost of other sources? etc design of a dual source system?? use floor strips as a back up since they are all over the dump and are free? Is your power stable or do you lose it often?
 
(quoted from post at 07:56:31 04/06/21) Got a quote for our cottage,,its 970 sq ft

To put plywood ,air handler,,vents in attic,and carrier unit outside,,7,900 dollars

He mentioned heat pump is 1000 more

What is good about heat pump,??,I know nothing about them

We currently have a good oil heat furnace with hot water baseboard system

Any advice,,opinions etc,,will be appreciated ,,


Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

Since we were already installing a new gas furnace and adding central air . We decided to go the rest of the way and made it a heat pump .
The HP warms the house for a few weeks in the spring and fall.
 
I put in 24,000 but mini split heat pump two years ago still going strong. My house is 2200 square ft and in Ky it heats and cools the house ok. In the opposite end of the house it gets a little hot in the summer. The electric bill has gone down over central heat and air.
 
You can install two Amana Motel heat/ac units for #1500/ I did that 20 years ago and they are both still running. 5000 watts of electric heat each.
 
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