Basic Ethics?

ML37...... Ya know when a man or woman reaches a certain silver or golden old, many times they only have their honesty and integrity to live by. Even if they do in fact have plenty of funds iin savings, why try to purposely try to cheat to gain something as a replacement tool. The tool has been tested once already. Doesn't need it a second time. My thoughts any way. Wingnut
 
I once gave a 1/2" break over bar to the Snap On man as a joke, not expecting him to replace it.

It was bent in a circle, trying to get the nut off of a truck transmission yoke, bumped the starter and it started, wound it up, but it didn't break!(Neither did the nut come off)

He laughed and insisted I take a new one.

But I rarely return broken tools. It's almost always caused by excessive abuse.

I used to take worn out ratchets back to Sears, but no longer have any Craftsman ratchets.
 
Depends, my 120 lb uncle needed cheater all the time vs my 300 lb gorilla of a friend. Both generating similar stress on the tool.
 
Moonlite37,

No it is not. I still have no kicked wire stripper. Snap on guy wod not replace it. He said to put it ina bit e a break one of the jaws..... NOT,

GUIDO.
 
Flat worn out or abused I'd never take it back,rarely have ever taken anything back really unless it just fell apart.Bought a King Kutter roto tiller from TSC that a customer bought back because it quit working after about 30 minutes of use.TSC sold it to me for 1/3 the cost of a new one.Called King Kutter to buy the parts I needed,told them the whole story.Guy at KK said box up the bad parts send them to us and we'll send you new parts free of charge.They sent back what I sent plus some extra parts.
 
(quoted from post at 05:03:27 02/08/21) Is it really honest to expect replacement tools if they have pipe to gain extra leverage?

Extra leverage?

In a way that's like asking if tool warranty should be denied for long armed 300 lb mechanics.

The second the head of a ratchet goes kaboom deep down you know if you were using or abusing the tool.

I could blow up the heads of 1/4 inch drive ratchets all day long without a cheater if I wanted to.

Conduct yourself accordingly regarding replacement.
 

got to add an opposing opinion... 73 years old abused body from stupidity in youth.. arthritis in both hands, wrists joints are bone on bone on both sides...(I Live for steroid shots every 90 days)_ one shoulder surgeried and the other needs it. Left hip replacement and the right is mostly functional, most days.. trouble with knees... sometimes an old guys needs a little help.

Was trying to flare some 5/16" stainless tubing yesterday and didn't have the grip to tighten the flare tool enough to form a nice flare... brought out a 1' piece of pipe and with that got the flare made...tight lug nuts ?? working overhead or in awkward positions I just don't have enough butt in my britches any longer... mechanical advantages are always welcome.. cheater pipes are your friend sometimes.


john
 

have a buddy who always grab his quarter inch rachet. And due to his huge size, he could and would strip the rachet paws... And he would simply return to sears and get a new one. No cheater involved.
 
How many people exceed the speed limit by a few and if asked, will tell you they never speed. Because speeding is when you are going fast enough to get stopped.

In about the 6th grade I heard an athlete say cheating is when you get caught. Many people push the limits and that is acceptable to them. I think that we all live the life that we have chosen for ourselves. Integrity is in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty is.

I told a salesperson in ACE hardware that the spring that opens my aviation shears was broken, and that I opened it manually. He said that it had a lifetime warren-tee. I brought it in and they exchanged it. I was impressed
 
(quoted from post at 03:03:27 02/08/21) Is it really honest to expect replacement tools if they have pipe to gain extra leverage?

The nick name "cheater bar" kind of says it all right there.

Although, some people think it's alright to cheat as long as you don't get caught. :roll:
 
This is going to be hard for me to explain, but here goes. I have a bent Harbor Freight 3/4 drive ratchet in my tool box. I knew I was going to bend it when I put a pull pipe on it. It cost $19.95 about three years ago. They are made of poor quality materials. I am not going to return it because I knew I would eventually bust it somehow. I also have a $300.00 Snap-On 3/4 drive ratchet. I do not expect it to break, but if it does I'll return it in a heartbeat. Why? because all quality tool manufactures expect you to use a pull pipe. Sort of like situational ethics?? Ellis
 
Well, I once had a vice I'd bought from Montgomery Ware.

I used a cheater bar on it and broke the main frame. I took it to a Ward's store thinking to see if I could buy a replacement. The salesman took one look at it and said, "There's a lifetime warranty on that", and ordered a new frame.

He had to have known you don't bust the main frame of a vice with normal use.
 
It is covered by the Craftsman warranty . Says nothing about not using extensions . I would certainly not feel guilty .
 
It is just heartening to see that there are so many ethical people on this board! Perhaps a higher percentage of honest people here than in the general population?
 
I have a 3/4 breaker bar thats 1ft long. What good is it if you dont use a cheater pipe. The amount of torque with a 1 ft bar is probably around 90 - 120 lbs and youre trying to turn a 2.5 inch fastener. The company expects it
 
What's "unconditionally guaranteed" mean, think that was in the Craftsman warranty.
I bought most of my Craftsman tools between about 1968 and 75 and stripped all the ratchets over and over again. Then I traded them in for Snap Ons and stripped some of them too but the truck was around every week to repair them.
I have four SK ratchets, a Challenger and Master Mechanic and never broke any of them and they all were treated the same way.
What ever it takes.
 
In my opinion there was one cheater involved. Misusing a tool because you didn't know its limitations is a judgement call (unless you know from experience that a different brand of the same tool would not have failed) but continuing to use the replacements in the same way is a clear case of using the wrong tool for the job. If you believe it's all right to get a replacement under warranty after knowingly using a tool in a way it was clearly never intended to be used, you're not likely to care what I, or anyone else who responds here, has to say about it.

Stan
 
I turned 71 yesterday. I have both shoulders needing surgery. 5 level back fusion. Carpal tunnel surgery
done on both hands. Knee replacement done.
I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ll be working in the shop until they carry me out. So I guess you have
to be old to understand where we’re coming from.
 
Tool handle length is designed for the average Joe strength to get the job done. Expecting a cheater pipe to be installed, provisions for that pipe would be allowed for in the design, or instructions of how much of an allowable cheater would be in the instructions. Yes, those big guys can break stuff with their own hands, and the frail folks need cheaters just to be at the level of average Joe.

The right tool for the job is important, but so is the quality of the tool to get the job done. We've all experienced using cheap quality tools. They look good, but the metalurgy is just not there, and the price reflects it.

Value of your time also needs to come into play here. If you are thrilled with the new tool set price, and several times a year, head back to the store for your free replacements, and you're fine with that, that's up to you. Breaking a tool mid-project often sucks, because now you can't finish it.

Free replacements also get you back in the store, with the hope that you'll go out with your replacement ratchet wrench, and a few more items.

Don't get me wrong. I like the fact that free replacements are available, and I have used that service several times. But most of us have some 50+ year old tools that are still going strong, because they were made when tools were made well, and we can count on them to work, and are really sad if one does get broken, or come up missing.
 
(quoted from post at 10:17:16 02/08/21) What's "unconditionally guaranteed" mean, think that was in the Craftsman warranty.
I bought most of my Craftsman tools between about 1968 and 75 and stripped all the ratchets over and over again. Then I traded them in for Snap Ons and stripped some of them too but the truck was around every week to repair them.
I have four SK ratchets, a Challenger and Master Mechanic and never broke any of them and they all were treated the same way.
What ever it takes.

I would say it means under normal use that the tool was designed for. Of course there are always people that just can't understand that.

What does normal use mean? I would say it's what a normal (non-idiot) person understands.
 
I turned 71 yesterday. I have both shoulders needing surgery. 5 level back fusion. Carpal tunnel surgery
done on both hands. Knee replacement done.
I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ll be working in the shop until they carry me out. So I guess you have
to be old to understand where we’re coming from.
 
(quoted from post at 13:47:27 02/08/21) I turned 71 yesterday. I have both shoulders needing surgery. 5 level back fusion. Carpal tunnel surgery
done on both hands. Knee replacement done.
I couldn t agree with you more. I ll be working in the shop until they carry me out. So I guess you have
to be old to understand where we re coming from.

I'm 74 and I know my limits. When it comes to moving or lifting something heavy, I call my nephew who lives just up the hill to help me. Invariably he will just grab it himself and wrestle it. I would not hesitate doing it either in my younger days but he is 59 now and I worry that he won't think about slowing down until he injures his back.
 
Too many variables for a realistic answer. Individuals have different strengths but that's not the biggest factor. Any decent tool should be built to handle use and abuse. If it doesn't it isn't worth having. I have probably returned half a dozen Craftsman tools in my lifetime. None of the other brands.

I rarely buy a cheap tool but when I do I expect it to last the one job. If it doesn't it isn't worth getting replaced. When I buy a more expensive tool and it breaks it isn't worth getting replaced either because it failed when I needed it. I used to return the more expensive ones just on principle but it isn't worth the trouble when it fails again. My solution is another brand.
 
When I stand before the Lord on that great day I hope he doesn’t say remember that time you used a cheater on that ratchet ? Then again he might .Tools used to say unconditionally guaranteed some say if you aren’t satisfied well I ain’t satisfied nor give me a new one . When I bought tools from the tool truck id tell em how I broke it never had a problem
 
Had a 36 inch Matco ratchet the truck was coming that day
wanted to see what it took to break it . Turns out it takes about
four feet of pipe broke the square right off the drive walked on
the truck said I broke it this is what I did guy laughed out a
new drive in it and sent me on the way
 
(quoted from post at 23:36:37 02/08/21)When I bought tools from the tool truck id tell em how I broke it never had a problem

Was that because it was officially okay with the company, or do you now call the ethics of the tool truck driver into question? Maybe he's not supposed to warranty clearly abused tools?

The tool truck driver knows nobody at corporate is going to check up on how and why he is performing warranty work, and he can get away with a lot as long as he makes his sales numbers.

On the other hand, back in the day when it wasn't about pinching every penny, corporate HAD to know abused tools were being replaced under warranty, and they just let it happen because it was good customer relations. They figured if they replaced that screwdriver that was clearly beat on with a hammer and used as a chisel, you'd come back and buy more tools.
 
definitly at your own risk so dont go crying this wrench is no dam good. and no warranty! but people will expect to try anything for free.
 
If I spend 10,000$ on 1000.00$ worth of tools then warranty
shouldn’t be on my conscience. At won’t point am I no longer
held accountable? Tool guy warrantied my ratchet gets call
from corporate he shouldn’t now he’s in a bad mood gets in
fight with his wife she’s driving gets upset gets in a wreck gets
killed now is that on my head to because I used a cheater
pipe ?
 
(quoted from post at 20:04:01 02/09/21) If I spend 10,000$ on 1000.00$ worth of tools then warranty
shouldn t be on my conscience. At won t point am I no longer
held accountable? Tool guy warrantied my ratchet gets call
from corporate he shouldn t now he s in a bad mood gets in
fight with his wife she s driving gets upset gets in a wreck gets
killed now is that on my head to because I used a cheater
pipe ?

Why don't you keep on going with the story? I'm sure you could get it up to the end of the world just because you used a cheater.
 
She crashed into a tanker truck causing it
to explode. Then a news helicopter
couldn't see through the smoke and crashed
into a missile silo causing several
nuclear warheads to be launched on China.
This caused China to launch some back
leading to several other countries getting
involved and everyone had a bad day except
for Marvin the Martian who finally got an
unobstructed view of Venus.
 
(quoted from post at 20:39:23 02/09/21) She crashed into a tanker truck causing it
to explode. Then a news helicopter
couldn't see through the smoke and crashed
into a missile silo causing several
nuclear warheads to be launched on China.
This caused China to launch some back
leading to several other countries getting
involved and everyone had a bad day except
for Marvin the Martian who finally got an
unobstructed view of Venus.

Yep, I knew there was more to the story. Thank you. :!:
 
Twisted the end of a harbor freight 1/2 inch extension using a breaker bar they sold me . So am I not supposed to expect warranty ?
 
(quoted from post at 14:46:06 02/11/21) Twisted the end of a harbor freight 1/2 inch extension using a breaker bar they sold me . So am I not supposed to expect warranty ?

Companies have accounts to cover returned or damaged merchandise. It's usually enough to cover stuff like this. They expect it to happen.

I went to a Toyota Dealership to have them do some stuff. One of them was to adjust my valves on a 1979 Carolla Delux. On the way home I stopped at a store a couple miles from my house. I smelled a smell like burning oil. I lifted the hood and there was oil and smoke all over the place. There are two studs and nuts that hold down the cast aluminum valve covers on a thick rubber gasket.

What they did was to turn the nuts down finger tight and failed to use a wrench to fully tighten them. I filled it with oil and tightened down the nuts. When I took it back to the dealer, he was very apologetic. He had them do a wet / dry compression test and steam clean it and he told the manager to charge it up to shop breakage. It came out very nice and I drove it probably ten years after that with no problems. It's still sitting on my property and was running just fine when I stopped renewing the license on it since I didn't need it any more.

My point is that they have accounts to cover stuff like that. So, it's up to you whether you feel that they should pay for your mistake or not. Do you really feel that the tool was defective?
 
A couple of months before I retired I happened to have my screw driver drawer open when the Snap On man came in. He just started pulling black handle screw drivers out, said they were made with formaldehyde, not all of them but about ten or so. He gave me new replacements. Then I had an old dead blow hammer with a broken screw in pad. They didn't make that kind anymore so he gave me the new model. I looked it up in my catalog price list, 50 bucks.

I wasn't complaining about anything, he's the one passing out new tools. Think he replaced some chrome sockets too

for peeling chrome. That's some pretty good service///Go Snap On!!!!!
 
Snap-On, used to sell , torque expanders, several lengths, I think, these are what you are calling cheater pipe. companies know tools break, that is how they figure the warranty out, they expect you to bring items back, so you will buy more. I know all about tool trucks, I have boxes of evidence. honest people don't need to lie, people respect them. if you have a bad tool get it replaced, before you get hurt. I remember one night out on a non trafficked road, a flat tire, first thing I reached for was my torque expander, ha ha . mark55
 
(quoted from post at 22:43:09 02/11/21) Those tool companies know what they are doing and they
smile all the way to the bank doing it .

As I said, they have accounts to cover it as the cost of doing business. I guess it's easier to replace the tool than to argue with someone and lose a customer.

It's like, what is a good reputation worth to them?
 
(quoted from post at 05:03:27 02/08/21) Is it really honest to expect replacement tools if they have pipe to gain extra leverage?

Not ethical at all to exchange a tool that was abused - and using a cheater is abuse. There are times you need the cheater but you have to understand you are abusing the tool.
 
Here is what the Craftsman warranty says today:
Full Lifetime Warranty
If the product fails to perform for any reason, we will replace it.
 
(quoted from post at 07:01:51 02/15/21) Here is what the Craftsman warranty says today:
Full Lifetime Warranty
If the product fails to perform for any reason, we will replace it.

This whole conversation is ridiculous. We're all adults here. Presumably we all know right from wrong. But, if you have to ask whether it's right or wrong to put a three foot cheater bar on a half inch drive ratchet and break it then ask for a replacement, maybe you just don't know right from wrong.

It's up to you. If you have to ask then...
 
For the OP question, I don't know. I guess there's room to abuse the system in just about any situation. I have a toolbox full of junk-sale ratchets, a few of each kind. If I break a 1/2" ratchet, well I have another one as a backup. And probably another one after that. For the little bit of wrenching that I do, this system works fine.

I was looking for pics of abandoned Texas oil fields, came across this article that talks about the "boom or bust" cycle. I liked the beautiful wrenches at the oil field supply store so this is a good time to post the pic. I think under normal use one would expect them to be smacked by a BFH--abuse?
mvphoto70110.jpg
 

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