Sprint 6

Well-known Member
I am new to reloading. Started mainly to
work up some match loadings for my Swiss
rifles in 7.5x55. Ended up using IMR 4350
and Hornady 178gr ELD match bullets.
Pretty satisfying to shoot a 2 inch group
at 300 yards, open sights, with a 119 year
old rifle.

So I am now venturing into handgun loading
since ammo is high, and I came home with
some dies from an auction. Starting with
45 ACP for my 1911 Champion model, 4.5
barrel. What powder does everyone like
for this caliber? I would like a powder
that is dual purpose for 9mm, if possible.

The other question is rifle vs. pistol vs.
magnum primers. I understand that they
all have their designated purpose, but
what is the real difference? I have
talked to some guys from our club that
have used rifle primers in pistols, and
magnum primers in non-magnum calibers.
What is the group's consensus? Magnum
primers are about all that's to be found
right now.
 
I like Ramshot Silhouette in 9mm, mainly because it has low muzzle flash. It's also appropriate for .45 ACP, but I have no experience loading that cartridge.

In general, rifle primers are thicker than pistol primers. The rationale is that rifle cartridges are loaded to higher pressures, while pistol cartridges need to be more sensitive. If you use rifle primers in your pistol, you may get a few hangfires, while pistol primers are likely to puncture when used in rifles.

Magnum primers are hotter than standard primers so they can better ignite the slow-burning powders used in magnum cartridges. In general, you can use magnum primers with non-magnum loads, but you should back off the powder charge a bit.
 
If you haven’t done so, I’d highly recommend a reloading manual. Or better yet several manuals by different authors. Lee, Lyman, Speer, Hornady, etc.
Some powders require magnum primers which will be specified in the manuals. Also magnum primers are used for low temperatures. Will powder requiring magnum primers fire with non-magnum primers? Yes it will but performance will suffer. And Sometimes it doesn’t matter which primer you use The manual will say.
 
As a rule, rifle primers are harder than pistol primers. Some handguns may lack sufficient hammer force to reliably dent a rifle primer. Pistol primers used in a rifle on the other hand, may pierce due to the stronger firing pin strike resulting in hot gasses bleeding back into the action.
Magnum primers a used with slower harder to ignite powers as they provide a longer hotter flame. If you substitute a magnum primer for a standard you need reduce the starting powder charge by a minimum 10% and work up from there.

As to choice of powder, it depends on the type of load you are wanting to create. Intended application, Cast lead or Jacketed, The bullet weight. I would suggest that you look at:
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx?page=/reloaders/index.aspx&
 
(quoted from post at 06:01:54 08/02/20) I am new to reloading. Started mainly to
work up some match loadings for my Swiss
rifles in 7.5x55. Ended up using IMR 4350
and Hornady 178gr ELD match bullets.
Pretty satisfying to shoot a 2 inch group
at 300 yards, open sights, with a 119 year
old rifle.

So I am now venturing into handgun loading
since ammo is high, and I came home with
some dies from an auction. Starting with
45 ACP for my 1911 Champion model, 4.5
barrel. What powder does everyone like
for this caliber? I would like a powder
that is dual purpose for 9mm, if possible.

The other question is rifle vs. pistol vs.
magnum primers. I understand that they
all have their designated purpose, but
what is the real difference? I have
talked to some guys from our club that
have used rifle primers in pistols, and
magnum primers in non-magnum calibers.
What is the group's consensus? Magnum
primers are about all that's to be found
right now.

I use TiteGroup for 9mm, but I've also HP38. I use Unique in .45 Colt, and some folks like it in 9mm. I use Winchester primers. Small pistol, and large pistol. I have experimented with small pistol magnum primers, but absolutely cannot tell any difference between the standard and the magnum.

Good luck finding reloading components right now. Powder, primers, and even bullets are extremely hard to find.
 
The large problem with a dual purpose 9mmm/45acp powder is that these two cartridges operate a two very different pressures. The 45 is low and the 9mm is high. Power pistol in the 45 might cross over into the 9m, but Io use cast so I'm not sure on jacketed. Watch estate sales for primers. Best not to use mag primers in non-mag unless you're loading ball powders in rifles. The hit from a mag primer will cause some accuracy issues is some non-mag cases. Excellent book, Pet Loads" Ken Waters should get you up to date and is a treatise on handloading pistol/rifle cast/jacketed boolits.
 
(quoted from post at 09:01:54 08/02/20) I am new to reloading. Started mainly to
work up some match loadings for my Swiss
rifles in 7.5x55. Ended up using IMR 4350
and Hornady 178gr ELD match bullets.
Pretty satisfying to shoot a 2 inch group
at 300 yards, open sights, with a 119 year
old rifle.

So I am now venturing into handgun loading
since ammo is high, and I came home with
some dies from an auction. Starting with
45 ACP for my 1911 Champion model, 4.5
barrel. What powder does everyone like
for this caliber? I would like a powder
that is dual purpose for 9mm, if possible.

The other question is rifle vs. pistol vs.
magnum primers. I understand that they
all have their designated purpose, but
what is the real difference? I have
talked to some guys from our club that
have used rifle primers in pistols, and
magnum primers in non-magnum calibers.
What is the group's consensus? Magnum
primers are about all that's to be found
right now.


Get a good manual first.

Second, Unique, Bullseye, Titegroup will all work.

I use Unique for both calibers you list depending on bullet selection.
 
Magnum large pistol primers will work fine. Large Rifle primers are the same diameter, but they are taller and will not work.



Any fast burning pistol or shotgun powder will work with 45 ACP. My favorite is Solo 1000. Green Dot, red dot/promo, bullseye, Win 231/Hp-38 all will be fine too.

9mm will work fine on 231/HP38 also, as will the others for target level loads, but not full house stuff.
 
Unigue is my go to powder for most all things pistol. It really shines with 45ACP with 230 grain lead bullets. That is the most consistent pistol load I have ever loaded.

You should be careful on your powder selection. You really need to get a reloading manual and do some reading. Compare the amount of powder, the pressures and the velocity. I would stay away from powders that only use 2 to 3 grains of powder for 9mm like Clays does. That is a very small amount of powder and it would be easy to double charge a case.


OTJ
 
Unique will work satisfactory in both 9mm and 45ACP however my pet load in 45 ACP is 4.5 grains of Red Dot behind a 200 grain Hensley and Gibbs #68 that I cast myself. Been so long since I have loaded a 9MM I'd have to dig out my notes on that one. The 45acp is generally very forgiving about what you feed it, not so much with the 9MM in my experience. Do not use rifle primers in a pistol. Magnum primers are not needed but as long as your loads take them into consideration you should be OK. Be wary of what you read on line as shooting forums!! check any "data" you find elsewhere against at least two loading manuals published by loading component manufacturers, there is a lot of horse dung flung around those forums.
 

I use Power Pistol and magnum primers in my 45ACP, 45LC, and 38 special. The 357 takes a completely different powder, WIN296. Be careful with the 45 ACP. If you exceed the recommended 830 fps velocity, you will break the extractor pin and have the cost and aggravation of repair. Ask me how I know. The 45 LC is a Ruger Blackhawk and can be loaded up to the 45 magnum loadings. The Ruger and TC are the only pistols rated for this load. I am not that brave . I shoot my own cast bullets and stay below the 1000 fps velocity to prevent heavy barrel leading, which is a real chore to clean out. If you want velocity above 1000 fps, use only jacketed bullets. Also watch the 45 ACP and 45 LC brass. They come in both small and large primer variations. I bought a bulk lot of both brass and found my LP primers were not going into some of the cases. I now sort pistol brass by manufacturer to avoid this issue. I am having a ball now shooting BP in the Blackhawk. Made my own BP for $2.40 a lb, cast bullets. The only recurring cost is primers. Plus you cannot overload BP in a 45 LC case. I fill the case to the top, add wad and compress powder to crimping grooves. The only danger with BP is to have an air gap in the case, which makes a bomb. Thus use 3/16- 1/4 inch compressed load. Other downside is more frequent cleaning, but water cleans it up nicely. Have shot as much as 250 rounds at one range trip, but have to do a quicky clean at 50 rnds or cylinder gets hard to turn
 
> Mark B. Are you a SASS member?

No I am not, but there is some cowboy action shooting here in SE Michigan and it sounds fun. I'd have to buy a single action revolver and a shotgun to go with my Uberti 1860 Henry.
 
Regarding the use of very fast powders such as Bullseye or Clays: Yes, there is a very real risk of a double or even triple charge when using fast powders, and such a mistake will cause catastrophic failure of most guns. But these powders are popular for a good reason: They give the best results for target loads in many pistol cartridges. .45 ACP, in particular, needs a fast powder for best results. You must be extra careful to avoid double charges; if you're not using a progressive press, use a loading block and charge the cases in a systematic pattern. And double-check when done to make sure all cases appear to have the same charge.

If you get serious about handgun reloading, sooner or later you'll get a progressive loader. When you do, make sure your setup has some sort of powder check mechanism, such as an <a href="https://www.rcbs.com/accessories/replacement-parts/lock-out-die/16-87540.html">RCBS lockout die</a>. This will not only prevent double charges, it will also prevent uncharged cases from getting to the bullet seat station. And uncharged cases are more likely than double charges when using a progressive press.
 
Consult hodgdon's website. They have excellent load data there. For whats it worth too, I would look to the high road forums, or brian enos forum. There you will find a boat load of information.
 
(quoted from post at 03:33:22 08/03/20) &gt; Mark B. Are you a SASS member?

No I am not, but there is some cowboy action shooting here in SE Michigan and it sounds fun. I'd have to buy a single action revolver and a shotgun to go with my Uberti 1860 Henry.

I am a member of NCOWS. National Congress of Old West Shooters. Wife is a member also. It is a LOT of fun.
 
Please, get a reloading manual. It will explain the difference in primers and gives you safe loads. Nosler, Sierra and Lyman are good.

Bill
 
(quoted from post at 04:30:39 08/03/20) Mark B. Are you a SASS member?

No. Have been reloading since 1974. Now, I never purchase a factory round. I buy the components and build my own shells.All my rifles are bolt action and each one uses specific loads for what I intend to hunt. Learned long ago that accuracy trumps velocity for any load. Velocity gives better knockdown, but that is pretty useless if you cannot hit the target. I pick a bullet type and weight for what I intend to hunt, get 3- 4 powders that have the largets volume in the case,then start making loads for midrange velocity and work it up in 2 gr incremenrs. Chech for accutacy. When accuracy falls off, back up one load. Process takes about 4 months for each load, but worth the effort. All 4 deer rifles shoot 5 shot groups with suvb 1" MOA. Every handloader will have different requirements for their loads, so you need to start with base parameters and add your specific requirement, then have at it. Keep us posted on results.
 
Sprint 6:
Listen to MarkB-MI. Among the people I know who reload, no one is more careful than I am and I ruined my 9MM and 45 ACP on the same day. I was firing the 45 and pulled the trigger on a double load. The 9 had a squib load. An inexperienced friend was firing it. She didn't know about "Pop - Stop", racked the slide again, pulled the trigger and put a full load on top of a bullet stuck in the barrel.
 
Thanks for the input. I will get another manual to compliment the Hornady one I already have.
 
It is fun. Im a life member of SASS and have shot at posses all over the country. I shoot 45LC in both my rifles and pistols. Just bought a 1887 replica 12 GA shot gun. Its fun. Look up a posse near you at www.sassnet.com
SASS MI
 
I don't know, I used to weigh the bullets and sort them by weight. Then measure every single load and I can only see a slight difference in accuracy. I think most of accuracy comes from the gun. I think the benefit from reloading is to save money.
 
(quoted from post at 05:34:06 08/04/20) I don't know, I used to weigh the bullets and sort them by weight. Then measure every single load and I can only see a slight difference in accuracy. I think most of accuracy comes from the gun. I think the benefit from reloading is to save money.

ALL guns are more accurate than I am.
 
> I don't know, I used to weigh the bullets and sort them by weight. Then measure every single load and I can only see a slight difference in accuracy. I think most of accuracy comes from the gun. I think the benefit from reloading is to save money.

If you find it necessary to weigh bullets, then you need to change bullet brands. If you find it necessary to weigh every charge, you need to change powders.

Accuracy depends a lot on bullet and powder choices. You can't get acceptable accuracy with bullets that aren't uniform and concentric. You can't get acceptable accuracy with the wrong powder, or an inappropriate charge of the right powder.
 
Winchester 231 or Hodgen HP 38,same powder different name, is suitable for most non magnum pistol cartridges. Please consult a manual for the correct load data.
 
(quoted from post at 04:30:39 08/03/20) Mark B. Are you a SASS member?

I replied to this earlier, but cannot find it. No I am not a SASS member. I have been reloading my own shells since 1974. I have not purchased any factory ammunition for any caliber or gun since 1975. I buy the various components and make a load for each gun I use, except shotguns. never could make reliable shotgun shells.

The very first thing I do is to choose a bullet for a specific caliber based on what I will be hunting. The 300 mag and 30-06 each have 3 loadings (bullets), the 444 2 loadings, and pistols generally one loading as I use them for plinking, except the.357.

I quickly found out to ignor the velocity hype. I load for accuracy, not velocity. Velocity of my hand loads falls within 75-85 % of the max load velocity. I can live with that.

I start with the bullet, then pick 4-5 powders on the load charts that provide the largest case volume. I fire form the cases with minimum powder loads, then neck size only. Full length sizing reduces case life.

I usually start with a mid range load and increase it by 2 grains until I cross the accuracy/ velocity line. Sometimes this is at the top of the loading charts, sometimes at the starting point. I load 10 shells at each point, then go to back yard range to test fire. I quit on a load when I can fire 5 rounds at 100 yards you can cover with a dime.

This is not simple. It takes 4-5 months of constant work to achieve the desired results for each load. I demonstrated this to my FIL. I used one bullet of 300 mag on a 185 class deer at 450 yards. He hounded me for the remaining 19 in the lot I took to hunt, although I told him they probably not work in his 300 mag.

When he test fired, the best group was 2 1/2 inches at 100 yds. All guns are slightly different, and my ammo is specific to my gun.

Pistols are a little different. Using cast lead bullets I keep the velocity below 1000 fps to prevent heavy leading of the barrel. Any load above 1000 fps gets jacketed bullets. I make my own bullet lube from beeswax and vasoline. I add crayon for coloring on the different batches. All my pistols will shoot a 2"group at 25 yards offhand. Better when a rest is used. Try some fun. Shoot at a 12"round swinging target at 50 yards. I hit roughly 85%. What a Blast.


My current project is to shoot BP in the Blackhawk with cast bullets. I use home made black powder I made at $2.40 a pound, my cast bullets and home made wads. I fill the cases with 40 grains of BP, about 3/16 down from the case 1/16 , add a 1/16 lubed paper wad, and compress the load to the crimping groove.

You cannot overload a BP cartridge, but you can underload. Make sure you have 3/16" compression on a BP load. If you underload and leave any air gap in a BP cartridge, you have a bomb that will destroy the best revolver.

What a blast. I love the smell and smoke of BP in a pistol, even though you have to wait 10 seconds to see if you hit the target. I usually shoot 250-300 rounds each time I shoot, and the BP requires a quickie clean every 50 rounds or the cylinder rotation gets very stiff. These loads are not a joke. They clock in better than the factory 45 LC loads by almost 150 fps. They are pushing the 1000 fps limit on lead bullets.

Attached are photos of the 45 LC Blackhawk. My first ever wood working project was these cherry grips from 50 year old cherry stored in Dad's attic. they are 3/16 wider than the cheap plastic grips that came from Ruger. I embedded them in 1/16 neoprere rubber to reduce recoil. I think they came out nice. No machines, hand carved and finished. Final finish is 40 hand rubbed layers of linseed oil.



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(quoted from post at 23:28:00 08/02/20)
I use Power Pistol and magnum primers in my 45ACP, 45LC, and 38 special. The 357 takes a completely different powder, WIN296. Be careful with the 45 ACP. If you exceed the recommended 830 fps velocity, you will break the extractor pin and have the cost and aggravation of repair. Ask me how I know. The 45 LC is a Ruger Blackhawk and can be loaded up to the 45 magnum loadings. The Ruger and TC are the only pistols rated for this load. I am not that brave . I shoot my own cast bullets and stay below the 1000 fps velocity to prevent heavy barrel leading, which is a real chore to clean out. If you want velocity above 1000 fps, use only jacketed bullets. Also watch the 45 ACP and 45 LC brass. They come in both small and large primer variations. I bought a bulk lot of both brass and found my LP primers were not going into some of the cases. I now sort pistol brass by manufacturer to avoid this issue. I am having a ball now shooting BP in the Blackhawk. Made my own BP for $2.40 a lb, cast bullets. The only recurring cost is primers. Plus you cannot overload BP in a 45 LC case. I fill the case to the top, add wad and compress powder to crimping grooves. The only danger with BP is to have an air gap in the case, which makes a bomb. Thus use 3/16- 1/4 inch compressed load. Other downside is more frequent cleaning, but water cleans it up nicely. Have shot as much as 250 rounds at one range trip, but have to do a quicky clean at 50 rnds or cylinder gets hard to turn


I strongly suggest this post and it's advice be ignored. The poster obviously has little knowledge of which he writes.

Get several manuals and read them cover to cover. I would also recommend Ken Waters "Pet Loads". Read his stuff on developing loads and follow his advice until you get comfortable with what you are doing. And for goodness sake, only change ONE THING AT A TIME and WRITE DOWN what changes you make. Reloading isn't difficult or dangerous if common sense and good practices are adhered to.
 
(quoted from post at 05:51:03 08/05/20)
(quoted from post at 23:28:00 08/02/20)
I use Power Pistol and magnum primers in my 45ACP, 45LC, and 38 special. The 357 takes a completely different powder, WIN296. Be careful with the 45 ACP. If you exceed the recommended 830 fps velocity, you will break the extractor pin and have the cost and aggravation of repair. Ask me how I know. The 45 LC is a Ruger Blackhawk and can be loaded up to the 45 magnum loadings. The Ruger and TC are the only pistols rated for this load. I am not that brave . I shoot my own cast bullets and stay below the 1000 fps velocity to prevent heavy barrel leading, which is a real chore to clean out. If you want velocity above 1000 fps, use only jacketed bullets. Also watch the 45 ACP and 45 LC brass. They come in both small and large primer variations. I bought a bulk lot of both brass and found my LP primers were not going into some of the cases. I now sort pistol brass by manufacturer to avoid this issue. I am having a ball now shooting BP in the Blackhawk. Made my own BP for $2.40 a lb, cast bullets. The only recurring cost is primers. Plus you cannot overload BP in a 45 LC case. I fill the case to the top, add wad and compress powder to crimping grooves. The only danger with BP is to have an air gap in the case, which makes a bomb. Thus use 3/16- 1/4 inch compressed load. Other downside is more frequent cleaning, but water cleans it up nicely. Have shot as much as 250 rounds at one range trip, but have to do a quicky clean at 50 rnds or cylinder gets hard to turn


I strongly suggest this post and it's advice be ignored. The poster obviously has little knowledge of which he writes.

Get several manuals and read them cover to cover. I would also recommend Ken Waters "Pet Loads". Read his stuff on developing loads and follow his advice until you get comfortable with what you are doing. And for goodness sake, only change ONE THING AT A TIME and WRITE DOWN what changes you make. Reloading isn't difficult or dangerous if common sense and good practices are adhered to.

Bret, what specifically in rew1953's post do you find objectionable? I personally wouldn't recommend that folks cook up their own black powder, but other than that I didn't see anything particularly dangerous. Well, I guess you shouldn't try to load 45 Colt to 44 Mag pressures, even in a Super Blackhawk or Contender, but he doesn't actually recommend doing it.
 
Hi,

4 rifles that cover a dime at a 100 with 5
shot groups - 450 yds on a deer with a 300
mag.

Have to ask about this deer story and these
rifles (optics, barrels, where hit the deer
etc) ..

A typical 300 win mag, even when sighted at
say 200 yds, will still have 2 feet of drop
at 450 yards.

Honestly curious - these are some very good
numbers and sounds like the deer hunt was a
hoot - always enjoy reading about others
adventures.

&#128512;
 
i won't be snooping around in the dark , at the farmers places, on this site, seems like more reloading going on, than farming. i reload from time to time, and one answer to mag primers is that it depends on what you are shooting, i use mag primers on all shotgun loads because they cycle better through an auto gun, this also is true with an auto pistol, most of the time the power charge is upped a little to cycle the action . safety is most important, even if you are safe, make sure everyone with you , are safe too it is up to you. you will find your power choice, for rifle or pistol, there are reasons for so many different powers. mark55
 
I use Bullseye and standard primers in .45 ACP and .40 S&W. This works great in our Glock, Kahr and SIG handguns. I always use the primers that are recommended by the loading manual I'm using.
Have fun and be safe,
Larry
 
Any bullets I've ever bought regardless of brand there was a little variation in weight. It's not a lot but they can vary .4 grain either way of their ideal weight. I used to sort them by weight and alter the powder charge for each different weight. It was a lot of trouble but gave me a little more accuracy.
 
(reply to post at 01:49:42 08/05/20)

When I bought my Taurus PT-1911, I was so excited. I had always wanted a 1911, but could not afford the hefty price of a Colt. My cousin had Colt Python in .357 that was the best shooting gun I had ever seen. Still disappointed at not being able to afford a Colt, but the Taurus seemed exceptionally well built and sturdy.

The first day at the range was very disappointing. From a solid rest at 25 yards, the gun was shooting consistantly 9 inches low and 4 inches to the left. On close examination, the front site looked extremely high and was not centered in the barrel.

I took it back to the local gun store and asked him to send it back to Taurus with a typed list of shooting errors and an attached target from the day before at the range. He told me I was wasting my time as all 1911's were nortoriously inaccurate by design so they would feed reliably with all ammunition in all weather conditions. He added that Taurus was a low end manufacturer and could never make a gun comparable to a Colt in any manner. That did not suit well as I had just spent $800 for the gun, holster, 5 extra clips and other accessories.

I asked Taurus to include a range report, signed and dated, demonstrating the accuracy of the gun. The gun was returned 5 weeks later with a lenghtly note describing the items their people had found deficient and repaired, along with a signed and dated range report. The included range target showed a slightly less than 1" group from a rest at 25 yards.

Needless to say, I was quite impressed with the fast action and great customer service from Taurus. I took the gun to the range and was able to duplicate the range report from 30 yards, where my bench was set up. It has been a great shooter ever since. I am totally sold on Taurus as a quality gun manufacturer, just for their customer service. They genuinely want their customers to be happy with their products and consider them for repeat business.

I took the complete returned package to the gun store and he was shocked at the time and effort that was spent on my single warranty claim, as well as the difference in accuracy. He confided that Taurus had changed his mind about their products and would put more of their products on display. I think he and Taurus got additional sales over this one incident. Everyone was a winner. Taurus also included a hand written note that their products included a unrestricted lifetime warranty, and If I was ever unhappy with their product, they would exchange it for a like replacement.

I have had several issues with other manufacturers products, and not one can match the customer service of Taurus. I will gladly purchase future guns from them .
 
(quoted from post at 13:19:43 08/05/20) Hi,

4 rifles that cover a dime at a 100 with 5
shot groups - 450 yds on a deer with a 300
mag.

Have to ask about this deer story and these
rifles (optics, barrels, where hit the deer
etc) ..

A typical 300 win mag, even when sighted at
say 200 yds, will still have 2 feet of drop
at 450 yards.



Honestly curious - these are some very good
numbers and sounds like the deer hunt was a
hoot - always enjoy reading about others
adventures.

&#128512;







Every word is true. Stop by any time and I will demonstrate the accuracy of my reloads.

The deer was shot at 450 yards with a Remington 700 BDL, 26"barrel. The scope was a Tasco, 4x16 with range finding recticle. Shoot the range with a Bushnell rangefinder and confirm with the scope dual cross hair range finder. The scope automatically adjusts the shooting cross hair to the dialed in range. I used the correct turrent tube to match my ballistics. The deer was shot from inside an old school bus, making a solid rest from the unused seats. The bullet was a Hornady 168 grain SST behind 72.5 grains of Reloader #22. The deer was shot in the upper left shoulder with a 2-1/2" exit wound. It only moved about 5 feet when it dropped. It weighed about 250 pounds (guess) and I could not get it on the 4 wheeler. Went back to the house to get the JD with FEL and some help.

Wound up with 5 add ons who wanted to see the deer and the shot. One industrious member went back to the bus and stepped off the yardage. He said I was wrong. The shot was only 447 yards, not 450. FYI. The deer made the KY record books that year.

We have family get togethers at least once a month. The ladies trade recipes and sewing tips. The men shoot high powered rifles for 3-4 hours at ranges of 100 yards to 500 yards. We are the only hunting group that I know of that actually practices with their hunting rifle 12 months a year. Most shoot one or two rounds to check their scope before deer season.

The constant practice gives the shooter confidence in his equipment and his ability to hit targets at specific ranges. Proper training and practice produce great results. Some members have self imposed limits of 300 yards, some more some less. My self imposed limit is 500 yards. I am comfortable with my equipment and skills shooting out to that range, but no further.

The witnesses are Joe Skaggs (owner of the 750 acre farm), Joyal Skaggs, eldest son, Glen Skaggs, youngest son and farm manager,
 
(quoted from post at 13:19:43 08/05/20) Hi,

4 rifles that cover a dime at a 100 with 5
shot groups - 450 yds on a deer with a 300
mag.

Have to ask about this deer story and these
rifles (optics, barrels, where hit the deer
etc) ..

A typical 300 win mag, even when sighted at
say 200 yds, will still have 2 feet of drop
at 450 yards.

Honestly curious - these are some very good
numbers and sounds like the deer hunt was a
hoot - always enjoy reading about others
adventures.

&#128512;

Posted before done. Johnny Holbrook, BIL, and Caden Skaggs, nephew. Yes we were hunting on the Skaggs family farm.
 


Where would you want to start Mark? That a 45ACP can't exceed 830 fps without breaking it, that cast can't exceed 1K fps without leading, the whole "bomb" thing, the only Rugers and TC Contenders can handle hotter 45 Colt (not LONG Colt) loadings, etc. If you find my post harsh, then just read it as " his opinions don't hold up in the face of facts". There is a massive amount of misunderstanding and misinformation out there regarding handloading and especially with cast. Coming here to find info is just like coming here to ask about traffic laws- it's the wrong platform for that.
 
> Where would you want to start Mark? That a 45ACP can't exceed 830 fps without breaking it, that cast can't exceed 1K fps without leading, the whole "bomb" thing, the only Rugers and TC Contenders can handle hotter 45 Colt (not LONG Colt) loadings, etc. If you find my post harsh, then just read it as " his opinions don't hold up in the face of facts". There is a massive amount of misunderstanding and misinformation out there regarding handloading and especially with cast. Coming here to find info is just like coming here to ask about traffic laws- it's the wrong platform for that.

Just to be clear, I was wondering specifically what you were so concerned about, not necessarily saying I agreed with him. Yes, there are on-line forums dedicated to handloading, but in my experience you're just as likely to get bad information on those sites as you are here.

FWIW, .45 Colt and .45 Long Colt are the one and the same cartridge. Most reloading manuals list it as .45 Colt, but my Uberti 1860 Henry is marked ".45 LC". Same thing.
 
The 45 Colt was never the 45 LONG Colt until it became necessary to keep idiots from trying to use 45 Colt ammo and reloading data in the 45 ACP. Yes, you can go to a variety of so called authoritative reloading forums and get horrible information, or you can actually go to a manufacturers website and get good data or, even better, open any of the numerous manuals out there and get even better info. I've spent the last 20 some years watching people ask questions and get everything from half the story to outright lies. Coming to and antique tractor site for reloading information is like going to a Walmart for help with a case of cancer.
 
(quoted from post at 06:15:40 08/07/20) The 45 Colt was never the 45 LONG Colt until it became necessary to keep idiots from trying to use 45 Colt ammo and reloading data in the 45 ACP. Yes, you can go to a variety of so called authoritative reloading forums and get horrible information, or you can actually go to a manufacturers website and get good data or, even better, open any of the numerous manuals out there and get even better info. I've spent the last 20 some years watching people ask questions and get everything from half the story to outright lies. Coming to and antique tractor site for reloading information is like going to a Walmart for help with a case of cancer.

Actually, the .45 long colt happened long before the .45 acp was developed. Colt firearms developed the single action revolver in .45 caliber, but Smith and Wesson developed the .45 Schofield that was the same caliber, but used a shorter cartridge. Those Schofield cartridges could be used in the Colt, but not the other way around, and there was much confusion when ordering ammo, so the cartridge in question became known as the .45 LONG. This all happened around 1870, and the .45 acp was not introduced until 1911.
 
Ahem. Those things that hold the bullets are called "magazines". Compliments of Bill(Wis). 1911A1 shooter since 1953.
 
(quoted from post at 10:26:53 08/06/20)

Where would you want to start Mark? That a 45ACP can't exceed 830 fps without breaking it, that cast can't exceed 1K fps without leading, the whole "bomb" thing, the only Rugers and TC Contenders can handle hotter 45 Colt (not LONG Colt) loadings, etc. If you find my post harsh, then just read it as " his opinions don't hold up in the face of facts". There is a massive amount of misunderstanding and misinformation out there regarding handloading and especially with cast. Coming here to find info is just like coming here to ask about traffic laws- it's the wrong platform for that.

My Taurus PT-1911 owners manual states specifically that only factory ammunition is to be used in this product. The only ammo available locally for 45ACP is .451 dia 230 gr RN
 
(reply to post at 08:32:39 08/09/20) [/quot


Posted while typing? To continue.
45ACP .451 dia 230 gr RNFMJ. Bought ammo from 5 manufacturers. All said velocity was 830 fps. Tarus also included a scare statement that only standard factory ammo is permitted with the max load being 230 gr bullet at 830 fps. Any load above this range would result in out of warranty gun damage. The 830 fps is 0retty clesrm you can look it up yourself on the Taurus web site.

I decided I wanted some HP rounds for hime defense and loaded Hornady .451 dia 230 gr JHP loaded to 900 fps. The gun would not cyclr the hollow points. I tried every bullet seating position from min to max with 100 rounds.

Wwnt back to the factory ball ammo and the gun would not eject any rounds. Took to the local gunsmith and the extrsctor pin was broke


Took 4 weeks and $158 to get it repaired. Why the problrm with 830 fps
 

Because you don't ONLY have to use 230's in the 45ACP! And just because your Taurus doesn't like a certain load or because you had a bad experience that may well be due to something you did does not mean that the whole idea is dangerous or will break any other platform used. You just stated that Taurus told you in writing only to use factory loads and then you went on to state you used handloads! How much sense does that make? Same thing for your comments on cast, full of misconceptions and inaccuracies. Just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it can't work for others who take the time to research and learn. Been at this game for 40 years and there is more you can do than can't do!
 
(quoted from post at 15:07:12 08/07/20)
(quoted from post at 06:15:40 08/07/20) The 45 Colt was never the 45 LONG Colt until it became necessary to keep idiots from trying to use 45 Colt ammo and reloading data in the 45 ACP. Yes, you can go to a variety of so called authoritative reloading forums and get horrible information, or you can actually go to a manufacturers website and get good data or, even better, open any of the numerous manuals out there and get even better info. I've spent the last 20 some years watching people ask questions and get everything from half the story to outright lies. Coming to and antique tractor site for reloading information is like going to a Walmart for help with a case of cancer.

Actually, the .45 long colt happened long before the .45 acp was developed. Colt firearms developed the single action revolver in .45 caliber, but Smith and Wesson developed the .45 Schofield that was the same caliber, but used a shorter cartridge. Those Schofield cartridges could be used in the Colt, but not the other way around, and there was much confusion when ordering ammo, so the cartridge in question became known as the .45 LONG. This all happened around 1870, and the .45 acp was not introduced until 1911.

I have reloading manuals, books and other research material going back into the 1870's. Yes, people mistakenly call the 45 Colt the LONG Colt, and they do it because they can't grasp the differences between the Schofield, ACP, etc. This is discussed in well over 100 years of firearms material. That does not mean the 45 Colts actual designation is the 45 Long Colt.
 
(quoted from post at 10:26:53 08/06/20)

Where would you want to start Mark? That a 45ACP can't exceed 830 fps without breaking it, that cast can't exceed 1K fps without leading, the whole "bomb" thing, the only Rugers and TC Contenders can handle hotter 45 Colt (not LONG Colt) loadings, etc. If you find my post harsh, then just read it as " his opinions don't hold up in the face of facts". There is a massive amount of misunderstanding and misinformation out there regarding handloading and especially with cast. Coming here to find info is just like coming here to ask about traffic laws- it's the wrong platform for that.

The Taurus owners manual stats not to use any ammunition other than standard manufacturers loads. I have purchased 45 ACP from Winchester, Remington, Federal, American Eagle, and Fiochie. All are .451, 230 gr RNFMJ with a velocity of 830 fps.

Hornady Pistol Reloading Handbook shows a 45 LC Magnum Load listing with the bold caution to only use in Ruger Blackhawk or Thompson Contender firearms, the only ones designed for the increased chamber pressures. If you want to argue with published data from Hornady, be my guest.

If you open any owners manual for a black powder firearm from any manufacturer, you will find a safety paragraph identifying the extreme hazards associated with air-gap loading of black powder firearms. They give specific instructions to scribe a line on the ramrod at your powder charge to prevent air-gap loading. You are demonstrating your ignorance of black powder shooting by ignoring the most basic rule of using black powder.

I will give you the leading vs velocity rule. I was using the old Ed Farris Shooting Guide published in Shooting Times. Current thinking shows leading is more the result of bad grove to bullet diameters, in excess of 0.001, rather than velocity. You can have bad leading at low velocities, and good leading at high velocities depending on how precise the fit of bullet to bore.
 

There is no such thing as "good leading", regardless of velocity. For sun someday, run your factory ammo out of your platform across a chronograph. Let me know how many loads give you exactly 830fps. And while recommending only using factory loads in your Taurus, you then went on to outline using handloads. I never said 45 Colt Ruger loads can be used in a 45ACP. I objected to your vague mention of an air gap in BP loads resulting in a "bomb". You can ring a chamber with smokeless too! You gave half the story or less. In fact you gave half the story or less throughout your posts. One thing I learned long ago in this game is that what works for one person may not work for another, and what fails for one person my excel for another. The variations between guns, lots of cartridges or brass or powder/primers, seating depth, crimp, trim length, barrel variations, cast alloy temper/makeup/casting date/diameter/static vs dynamic fit and of course the individuals personal methods will ALWAYS result in wide variations between results. The fact many of us manage to find success across a wide range of methods and components so often while others fail so often using "by the book" recipes should be all the proof anyone needs that handloading is as much art as science.
 
(quoted from post at 10:12:40 08/11/20)
Because you don't ONLY have to use 230's in the 45ACP! And just because your Taurus doesn't like a certain load or because you had a bad experience that may well be due to something you did does not mean that the whole idea is dangerous or will break any other platform used. You just stated that Taurus told you in writing only to use factory loads and then you went on to state you used handloads! How much sense does that make? Same thing for your comments on cast, full of misconceptions and inaccuracies. Just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it can't work for others who take the time to research and learn. Been at this game for 40 years and there is more you can do than can't do!

I was just giving my personal experience. There are 7 gun shops in my area. All only carry the 230 RNFMJ. I wanted to make some hollow point rounds for home defense. The loads were all within published safe velocities,860-875 fps. For whatever reason, the hollow points would jam every 3 rounds on a regular basis in the Taurus. Not acceptable for home defense. A local gunsmith attributed the broken extractor to the higher velocity loads, which would not be covered under warranty. Other guns may handle the loads well, but not mine. Have never had a cycling problem with the factory 230 RN. No jams at all. Seems strange that you see hollow point loads for the 9mm, 380, 40, and 10mm, but none are comercially available in my area for the 45 ACP. I must be missing something.
 
(quoted from post at 02:27:41 08/19/20)
(quoted from post at 10:12:40 08/11/20)
Because you don't ONLY have to use 230's in the 45ACP! And just because your Taurus doesn't like a certain load or because you had a bad experience that may well be due to something you did does not mean that the whole idea is dangerous or will break any other platform used. You just stated that Taurus told you in writing only to use factory loads and then you went on to state you used handloads! How much sense does that make? Same thing for your comments on cast, full of misconceptions and inaccuracies. Just because something didn't work for you doesn't mean it can't work for others who take the time to research and learn. Been at this game for 40 years and there is more you can do than can't do!

I was just giving my personal experience. There are 7 gun shops in my area. All only carry the 230 RNFMJ. I wanted to make some hollow point rounds for home defense. The loads were all within published safe velocities,860-875 fps. For whatever reason, the hollow points would jam every 3 rounds on a regular basis in the Taurus. Not acceptable for home defense. A local gunsmith attributed the broken extractor to the higher velocity loads, which would not be covered under warranty. Other guns may handle the loads well, but not mine. Have never had a cycling problem with the factory 230 RN. No jams at all. Seems strange that you see hollow point loads for the 9mm, 380, 40, and 10mm, but none are comercially available in my area for the 45 ACP. I must be missing something.

Yes, you are definitely missing something. HP ammo is readily available, (or was before the recent ammo buying spree!), for the 45ACP . Federal alone offers 7 different loads, Remington, Winchester, Federal and others offer dozens of HP loads from 78 grains to 230. Again, you make assumptions based on limited experience. And please realize that auto loaders are legendary for having feed issues. What you went through was nothing unusual. Some guns will feed anything, in any style or load, without a hiccup. Others are just plain finicky. This occurs across the cartridge spectrum and in rifles and shotguns too. All it takes is a slightly deformed or, more correctly, improperly formed mag lip/feed ramp/chamfer for that specific bullet for feeding issues to crop up. That's part of why the FMJ RN was the standard for decades in auto loading pistols. A pointy, slippery, design. Feeding reliability. I know when my former agency went from the Smith 681 357 to the Glock 17 9mm they did a boatload of reliability testing. Same thing when we transitioned to the 45GAP and then the 45ACP. But all of them used HP ammo, it all fed nicely and even then we did stoppage drills over and over again because sometimes bad things happen with auto loaders. So yeah, you gave your opinion based on your experience. I gave mine on what is obviously based on a lot more experience and research. One thing I learned a long time ago is that some times we don't know, that we don't know, what we don't know! Eating crow in public forums multiple times trained me to be very careful in how I worded what opinion and advice I laid out. No harm done, glad you found something that worked in your particular situation. Have a good day.
 


I did find out I was missing something on the ammo availability in my area. Its called good ole American economics. I talked to Evans Firearms about different ammo for the 45 ACP, and he was kind enough to explain it to me. Evans purchases all their ammo by case lots. I did not ask how much was in a case. Sometimes they have to purchase multiple cases to get good pricing.

Years ago, they used to carry all kinds of 45 ACP ammo, but found the 230 RNFMJ was the best seller by a wide margin. As the economy grew more competitive, they could not afford the investment to keep various ammo in stock that were slow sellers. This applies to most of the ammo they sell. Since most of the retailers are small independents in my area, the selection is limited to the fast movers.

He advised me that to find other offerings for the 45 ACP, I would need to go to one of the larger chain stores that could afford to keep slow stock. It kind of made sense. Dad was in the tool business for 40 years and did not stock slow sellers on the tool truck. He could special order anything in the catalog, but there were no minimum case quantities.

I will have to consider other options, but still direct most of my purchases toward the small independents to keep them in business. We have already lost too many of the personal shops to the big box outfits.

I apologize for my ignorance, but rural communities like mine do have limited selection of ammo choices with the local stores. I also have a strong dislike for going to the larger stores that force you to walk the entire length of the store to get to the hunting/fishing dept. My favorite fishing store is only 50x75 feet and you will pay double for many items, but I still go there for the covenience and personal service.
 
(quoted from post at 23:01:31 08/20/20)

I did find out I was missing something on the ammo availability in my area. Its called good ole American economics. I talked to Evans Firearms about different ammo for the 45 ACP, and he was kind enough to explain it to me. Evans purchases all their ammo by case lots. I did not ask how much was in a case. Sometimes they have to purchase multiple cases to get good pricing.

Years ago, they used to carry all kinds of 45 ACP ammo, but found the 230 RNFMJ was the best seller by a wide margin. As the economy grew more competitive, they could not afford the investment to keep various ammo in stock that were slow sellers. This applies to most of the ammo they sell. Since most of the retailers are small independents in my area, the selection is limited to the fast movers.

He advised me that to find other offerings for the 45 ACP, I would need to go to one of the larger chain stores that could afford to keep slow stock. It kind of made sense. Dad was in the tool business for 40 years and did not stock slow sellers on the tool truck. He could special order anything in the catalog, but there were no minimum case quantities.

I will have to consider other options, but still direct most of my purchases toward the small independents to keep them in business. We have already lost too many of the personal shops to the big box outfits.

I apologize for my ignorance, but rural communities like mine do have limited selection of ammo choices with the local stores. I also have a strong dislike for going to the larger stores that force you to walk the entire length of the store to get to the hunting/fishing dept. My favorite fishing store is only 50x75 feet and you will pay double for many items, but I still go there for the covenience and personal service.

I live in tiny town in the US/Canadian border. I know what you mean about limited choices. Still, unless you live in a state run by tyrants like I do, you do have the option of buying ammunition through the mail/online. Costs are usually good too. Just a thought.
 

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