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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

ethanol gas

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mark1955

07-24-2020 10:04:56




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I found this place, a while back, found gas near me, for mowers and such, great site. mark55 https://www.pure-gas.org/




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timcasbolt

08-20-2020 12:57:33




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
I made the mistake of quoting federal law from a government website and am still paying for it 6 months later.



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DoubleO7

08-20-2020 07:42:01




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

It does for sure in Florida.
Only 87 & 89 can be found without it at maybe 10% of the stations.

And that looks like a pump in Canada.



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JMOR

08-20-2020 05:55:04




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
The bottom line here ought to be, if you grow corn, ethanol laced gas is good, if you do not grow corn, ethanol laced gas is bad.



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buickanddeere

08-19-2020 16:00:15




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  


Somebody here tried to tell me that premium fuel contained ethanol .



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buickanddeere

07-28-2020 19:59:47




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
The feed value of distillers grain is less than whole grain . The starch and energy is depleted .



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rustyfarmall

07-28-2020 15:00:56




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
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When corn is used to make ethanol, it is only the alcohol that is extracted from the corn. What is left over from that process is called "distiller's grain", and can be fed to cattle, hogs, poultry, etc. just the same as regular corn, and the livestock will do just as well. Kind of like having your cake and eating it too.



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fixerupper

07-28-2020 09:50:14




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
DT466 burning ethanol? I guess I thought the D stood for diesel.



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Oliver 500 Wa

07-25-2020 14:46:27




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Oil for two stroke engines has come a long since you read Mr Jennings article. 50 years ago the preferred oil for a high performance 2 stroke was Castor based. Castor is a vegetable oil and does degrade pretty quickly. Often it would gum up in the bottom of your fuel can if not used up quickly enough.
A popular Castor oil of the era was made by Blendzall. It contained some additives to help stabilize the mix. It cost at least half again more than straight Castrol brand Castor oil so I rarely used it. One can still buy Blendzall today if one has a hankering for the exhaust smell unique to burning Castor oil and wants to leave a cloud of 16:1 fuel/oil ratio behind.

Today's modern 2 stroke oils are petroleum or synthetic based. Stable in the mix. Long shelf life, particularly when used with ethanol free fuel. Much better lubrication properties than oils from 50 years ago. Almost every 2 stroke oil today can be run at 50:1 ratio just fine.

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timcasbolt

07-25-2020 14:02:30




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeEthanol is used because mtbe is bad for the environment. And the amount of ethanol is regulated based on how dirty the air is in a particular geographic area. Large metropolitan areas are required to use more ethanol than rural areas.



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timcasbolt

07-25-2020 13:50:05




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeNitropropane. BIG difference.



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ss55

07-25-2020 10:06:15




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
If everyone hates ethanol gas so much, why not just drop the federal ethanol requirement? The fuel shortages are over for the foreseeable future, and modern vehicles have the technology to burn straight gasoline just as cleanly or even cleaner than ethanol fuels. The only real reason for continuing the federal ethanol mandate is that corn growers don't want to cutback their production. Cornbelt states and any other states can still mandate the local use of ethanol gas and soy-diesel fuels if they choose, and the rest of us will get by just fine without it.

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jimg.allentown

07-25-2020 11:14:57




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to ss55, 07-25-2020 10:06:15  
There is no federal mandate for E10.

I refer you to the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007. This does mandate that a defined percentage of our fuels MUST come from renewable sources. This was intended to promote biodiesel and E85 fuels.

Some states do mandate that all gasoline must contain 10% ethanol, but that is up to each individual state.

The REAL reason that almost all fuels contain 10% ethanol is due to the low demand for E85 and the over production of ethanol. The "left over" ethanol is blended into the mainstream fuel to produce E10.

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timcasbolt

07-25-2020 09:41:07




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeAny chance it was called Klotz Nitro?



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dr sportster

07-25-2020 10:54:33




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to timcasbolt, 07-25-2020 09:41:07  
Klotz Nitro is 50% nitromethane and 50% Koolinal [whatever that is]



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timcasbolt

07-25-2020 09:22:25




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Gasohol was 10% ethanol.



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NEKS

07-25-2020 08:55:02




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
I know you can buy premium with or with out ethanol in it. I know the tanker driver that delivers to this one station and I ask him all the time if it is still with out ethanol.



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ztrmowers

07-25-2020 07:36:53




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
i have used gasohol since its arrival and have yet to have engine apart cause of it. been deliverd to the farm barrel for years run in evrything on the place. when customer brings in ther unit to work on same fuel goes in it. i just cannot get over haw customers are so wanting to use all the gas additives as a life saver for thei engine. those additives are just putting more alcohol in the fuel that they were so against in the first place. just keep the fuel clean and fresh thats all tou need no matter what its called .heres the biggey i see gas engine needs gas not diesel fuel

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Kid Shileen

07-25-2020 11:44:21




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to ztrmowers, 07-25-2020 07:36:53  
I remember when gasohol came out in the mid to late 70ís. My dad had Caddy. 77 Seville I believe. The gasohol turned the the fuel lines into goo and fudged up the fuel injection.



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dr sportster

07-25-2020 07:33:32




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Jimg. is correct ethanol and methanol have less BTUs than gas .The only reason they make more power in a race engine is because you can dump so much more fuel into the mix Methanol jetting is double gas sizes



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Goose

07-25-2020 09:32:14




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to dr sportster, 07-25-2020 07:33:32  
When I moved from late model stock cars to outlaw sprint cars, I found we had fewer problems with engines overheating, largely because we ran straight methanol in the sprints where rules for the stocks required pump gasoline and methanol burns cooler than gasoline.

(Not that we actually ran straight pump gasoline in the stocks. We always added an octane booster to our fuel in the stocks. Can't recall the name of it, but we added a quart to ten gallons of gasoline. I don't know if it actually improved performance, but it gave the exhaust a distinctive aroma.)

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rustyfarmall

07-25-2020 06:17:02




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
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I agree 100%. I could not have said it better myself.



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jimg.allentown

07-25-2020 04:58:01




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
In all fairness to all involved, I have made the following observations:

Ethanol in the gas does attack the fuel lines in most small 2-stroke powered devices. Chain saws, string trimmers, leaf blowers, and the like. Does non-ethanol gas attack those fuel lines? Probably but not as quickly.

Ethanol gas became widely available in this area around 2004 or 2005. One by one, gas stations began switching over to 10% ethanol until there were only a couple of stations around without it.

To those that say they have been using ethanol gas for 40 years or more I say BALONEY! Unless it was in a handful of Midwestern states, it has NOT been around here for anywhere near 40 years. At least here in southeastern PA.

I do recall when I lived in upstate NY many years ago, there was an experimental "gasohol" tried out. It cost more, and contained METHANOL, not ethanol. The experiment was a failure because it cost more and got noticeably poorer fuel economy. That was around 1976 or 1977 as I recall. I did try it. I found that it ran OK but got poor gas mileage.

It is a scientifically proven fat that ethanol contains less BTUs of energy than gasoline. That translates into a drop in fuel economy - however slight.

Personally, I have no particular objections to those who choose or prefer to use ethanol gas. I prefer non-ethanol gas personally. I think that we all should have a choice and should be able to use the fuel of your choice.

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ss55

07-25-2020 10:18:51




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to jimg.allentown, 07-25-2020 04:58:01  
I can remember using ethanol mixed "gasohol" when I lived in Saginaw, Michigan between 1980 and 1982. That is almost 40 years ago now.



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MarkB_MI

07-25-2020 07:44:01




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to jimg.allentown, 07-25-2020 04:58:01  
> To those that say they have been using ethanol gas for 40 years or more I say BALONEY! Unless it was in a handful of Midwestern states, it has NOT been around here for anywhere near 40 years. At least here in southeastern PA.

I remember "gasohol" being sold in Amarillo, TX in 1980. So it's been around for at least 40 years. And Texans don't take kindly to being called "Midwestern".

Gasohol fell out of favor in the eighties and didn't really take off again until MTBE was phased out in the aughts.

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Goose

07-25-2020 07:19:56




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to jimg.allentown, 07-25-2020 04:58:01  
BALONEY?

Read my post about the Fiat roadster I owned that was supposed to use premium gasoline but ran just fine on E10 ethanol. That was in the late 1970s and E10 had been around here in Nebraska for several years then. According to the calculator on my desk, that's over 40 years.



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Hockeygoon

07-26-2020 09:40:31




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to Goose, 07-25-2020 07:19:56  
Ethanol has been in NE Kansas since 1982. The first time I put it in the 1975 F250 the huge crud build up in fuel tank clogged the fuel pump. After that it ran fine. It was the only vehicle that had an issue - but then it also probably had the dirtiest fuel tank. That was with vehicles ranging from a 1964 F600 to a 1982 Gran Marquis. Gas tractors from a 1950 H to a 1968 656. Despite everything I've read on here the 656 ran fine for decades on 87 octane it had 3 engine overhauls with over 21K hours - some were very hard hours.

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Bob Bancroft

07-25-2020 06:42:04




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to jimg.allentown, 07-25-2020 04:58:01  
I can't remember when ethanol came to central NY, 10-15 years ago? Seems we were the last to get it, as everyone else was already talking about it. As there were many reports/accusations of more than 10% alcohol, I tested mine once, to find it just below 10%.

I was working on chainsaws in the 70's, and there was plenty of trouble with stale gas before ethanol. It sure seemed like the gas/oil mixture was much worse than just straight gas at gumming things up, and melting fuel lines. Homelite did finally tell us that the plastic being used more and more in the fuel tanks acted as a catalyst. Even though it didn't melt, or degrade, somehow that plastic caused the fuel mixture to turn rancid very quickly. I don't know how, but I sure know it happened!

I have gas[ohol] delivered here to the farm for the old tractors, trucks, and little engines. No trouble yet.

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fixerupper

07-24-2020 20:40:12




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Yesterday my local Polaris dealer told me there is probably water in the bottom of the tank in my Ranger because I use 10% ethanol. I fill the tank usually once a week. He also claimed I have probably ruined the fuel pump rubber parts by using ethanol. I will be going to another Polaris dealer from now on, one that is more up to date.

Since I started using ethanol 35 years ago i havent once had water in the bottom of my gas tanks. Before ethanol came along water in our gas tanks was a constant problem. A few days ago I started up two tractors, A B Farmall and an A Deere that both had three year or older ethanol in the tanks. Both started right up, nothing was gummed up but I will admit the gas did not smell very fresh and there was no water in the sediment bowl on either tractor. A couple years ago a farmer brought a tractor for me to do some transmission work on. He does not use ethanol and sure enough, the sediment bowl was 1/4 full of water. Back in the good old days before ethanol three year old gasoline would smell just as bad or worse.

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DoubleO7

07-24-2020 19:00:05




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
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And many seem to assume that Premium is non-ethanol as well.

And so the station selling Premium gets added to the list selling non-ethanol gas.



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DoubleO7

07-24-2020 17:26:25




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
If you think 10% ethanol in your gasoline damaged anything built after 1978, blame the engine manufacturer.



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tomNE

07-24-2020 17:16:19




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
I'm in goose's corner; I've used it from day 1 when it became available at the coop. one thing i won't do is fill my home fuel barrel with it because it does evaporate quickly out in the sun. I try to use premium where i need gas to last longer time sitting in a units tank. As far as the comment from the guy who talks about hotter fuel being bad; he probably needs to double check his sources. premium gas burns slower then regular and alky burns slower yet. you want a real flash bang use cheap gas, it'll ignite with a boom. diesel fuel is even harder to ignite then alky. I personally think alot of problems are the type of reg gas that it's mixed with. they changed gas ratings a few years ago and it wasn't for the good. Arizona gas is really bad. my fuel mileage on my pilot drops a full 2mpg, during on snowbirding adventures

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K Effective

07-24-2020 16:06:42




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Well, Goose, I'm glad you've had good luck.

I've replaced all the fuel lines on my older small engines after they swelled shut, and even had a carburetor boot break in half on a snowmobile after the material was exposed to ethanol fuel. I was lucky then, as I did not burn a piston running the motor lean without oil injection.

The only gas engines left on the farm are my two antique tractors and chain saws. I think I'll use the non-ethanol fuel, just in case, as I really just don't run any of them much any more.

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Goose

07-24-2020 16:29:35




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to K Effective, 07-24-2020 16:06:42  
Whatever works for you, I don't hold it against you.

Back in the 1970s I had a little Fiat roadster, fun little car, a little two seat ragtop. Four cylinder water cooled rear engine. It needed to run on premium gas. When premium began to get scarce, on a tip from someone I tried E10 ethanol in it, and it ran as good on E10 as it did on premium. I won't even try to explain it.

That was the most fun car I've ever owned. I commuted 22 miles each way to work with it at the time and the fact that I was getting 34 mpg when everyone else was still getting 12-14 didn't detract from it.

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Goose

07-24-2020 15:49:14




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
This thread made my day.

I've used E10 for 40 years, or ever since it came out, in everything from farm tractors to chain saws, weedeaters, etc. and I can honestly say I've never had a problem I could blame on the ethanol.

I inadvertently let a wheeled string trimmer sit outside all last winter with ethanol in the tank. It started on the second pull this spring and ran perfectly with what was in the tank.

I think a lot of problems are blamed onto ethanol when they're actually caused by something else. Plus there's an endless amount of barroom and coffee shop disinformation going around about ethanol. Someone says E10 will damage two stroke engines because it burns hotter than pure gasoline, another study says ethanol burns cooler. I prefer to believe a credible study.

The owner's manuals for both of my Stihl chain saws simply advise against using gasoline with more then 10% ethanol. So that's what I use in them. They both sat for close to two years while I had back surgery and followup problems. They both started right up this spring on what was in the tank.

And so it goes.

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DR. EVIL

07-27-2020 09:38:20




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to Goose, 07-24-2020 15:49:14  
A quick Google search shows that the "Experts" think as much as 3% of gasoline sold as motor fuel is E-0, non-lethal containing gasoline. BUT, gasoline retailers in Iowa claim that E-0 is 14% of the gallons they sell. North Carolina seems to be the largest user of E-0, but WISCONSIN has the highest number of retail E-0 outlets. They really can't pin down an exact number of gallons of E-0 gas that's sold because typically the ethanol is added to the gas as the tank trucks going to the stations are loaded, but they hint that something more than 5% is the actual number. I got in a really heated argument on a forum years ago when somebody said only 5% of the nation's corn crop was used to make ethanol to add to gasoline. My research showed in was between 35 and 40%. Using corn to make ethanol to stretch our motor fuel supply seems silly, that only raises the cost to feed livestock, which increases meat prices. Articles I've read say a plant called "Sawgrass", typically found in the Florida Everglades has absolutely NO other use, and could be processed to make a higher amount of ethanol per ton of plant matter processed. But we use corn because farmers grow too much of it. International Harvester tested running DT-466 engines on 100% ethanol back in the late 1970's. The idea was that farmers would grow corn and distill it on their farm to power their equipment. Ethanol is a great motor fuel, makes crazy horsepower, need to change oil more frequently. Drag racers and sprint car racers have been using it for 60-70 years.

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DR. EVIL

07-25-2020 10:59:52




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to Goose, 07-24-2020 15:49:14  
I'm not going to get into ethanol is good or bad discussion, just say I buy Kwik-Trip 91 octane RECREATIONAL 100% gasoline because it's formulated to stay good for a long time, all winter in fact.
I do want to relate some information about oil mixed with ANY kind of gasoline. I read an article in CYCLE MAGAZINE back around 1970, maybe '72 by GORDON JENNINGS, he was Cycle's feature technical editor back then. He built and tuned racing 2-stroke engines for all the factory race teams and most of the greatest motorcycle racers ever back then. He researched all his articles well, He claimed that the oil added to gasoline for 2-stroke engines lost about 25% of it's lubricity in a week. He recommended NOT using pre-mix that was over a month old. And 2 year old premix, I bet it would not even burn if you threw a lit match in a puddle of it. Running that thru your saws was about like running straight gasoline. Dad had an open 5 gallon can of gasahol years ago, We were running it in the '51 M. But I tried to set some old boards and stuff on fire with it. I could NOT get it to burn with my Bic lighter. I splashed a bit of MY good gas, 91 octane recreational gas on the old stale gasahol, flicked my Bic and we had a bon fire.

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denny k

07-24-2020 18:23:52




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to Goose, 07-24-2020 15:49:14  
AMEN, I agree with you 100% I too have used it in everything 2cycle and 4 cycle or 40+ years also. I even ran a 3 1/2 hp. B & S lawnmower on E-85 one summer. Ran great.



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MarkB_MI

07-24-2020 16:59:06




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to Goose, 07-24-2020 15:49:14  
> I think a lot of problems are blamed onto ethanol when they're actually caused by something else.

Right. If you leave gas in a small engine for several months, chances are you're going to have some problems. It doesn't matter that much whether the gas has ethanol in it or not. And since 99.999 percent of the gasoline sold in the US contains ethanol, naturally ethanol gets the blame.



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MarkB_MI

07-24-2020 14:27:41




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Because the information at pure-gas.org is crowdsourced, it tends to be unreliable. Anybody can add a station and anybody can remove a station. But I don't know of a better source.



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walterg

07-24-2020 13:39:50




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Ethanol gas burns hotter and can damage air cooled engines.



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Hockeygoon

07-26-2020 09:50:12




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to walterg, 07-24-2020 13:39:50  
Actually ethanol runs cooler than "straight" gas- the off set to that is that it creates less energy. But how much less? I don't know but even if its 20% less - that means 10% of the fuel is creating 20% less energy - you are getting 2% less energy. On my 16 MPG Tahoe you can't tell the difference.



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denny k

07-24-2020 18:26:31




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to walterg, 07-24-2020 13:39:50  
Bullx&%*



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Russ from MN

07-24-2020 14:34:03




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to walterg, 07-24-2020 13:39:50  
I use E-10 in all our 4-stroke engines, with no problems whatsoever! Ethanol was originally added to reduce pollution, now it's doing that and carrying the farm economy! I was pretty sure you were wrong, so I googled it, and this is what I found!

Ethanol helps keep engines clean, too. It burns more completely and at a slightly cooler temperature than gasoline. ... Oxygen atoms inside ethanol join forces with oxygen molecules in the air to help ethanol burn more completely. This extra amount of oxygen also helps gasoline burn better when it is blended with ethanol.

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dzc3

07-24-2020 13:22:14




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
Not to start a war but had ethanol fuel in my Honda generator for about 1.5 years, I was worried about but started on the second pull. My secret is to shut the fuel off under the tank and let it run until carb. is empty not recommending anything but works for me



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J Hamilton

07-24-2020 20:50:20




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to dzc3, 07-24-2020 13:22:14  
That's the key for every Honda engine I've ever been around. If they aren't going to be used almost everyday, turn the gas off and run the carb dry and it will start every time when you need it.



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Stephen Newell

07-24-2020 11:41:13




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
In my area Walmart is selling ethanol free gas at one pump.



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Steve@Advance

07-24-2020 11:35:49




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
I've seen that site before.

Best call first, all it takes to get on the list is to sell the over priced quart cans of 2 cycle gas.

I looked up my town, showed a (very customer unfriendly) mower shop. I know they don't have a pump or bulk, just the little cans.



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c.oawright

07-24-2020 11:17:48




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
You can separate all the ethanol out of the gas by adding water. The ethanol and water combine and go to the bottom. Add the water and slosh it around and let it sit. The combined water and ethanol goes to the bottom. You need a clear container with a sump to do it easily. Or siphon the bottom off until it isn't clear.

Several ways to do it. Its like sumping the water out of airplane tanks or your tractor.

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Janicholson

07-24-2020 15:20:37




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to c.oawright, 07-24-2020 11:17:48  
Doing that is great if you have a engine that can stand 80 to 83 octane fuel with no way to determine what it really is! Jim



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8n13325

07-24-2020 10:31:17




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to mark1955, 07-24-2020 10:04:56  
I actually run non ethanol fuel. Especially in farm equipment and anything that can sit for a while.
Ethanol fuels are very BAD AT ABSORBING WATER. Chemical engineer would call it "Phase Separation".
Ethanol and water combine in the fuel tank and degrade the tank and lines.
Molecules of water in the air are absorbed by the ethanol molecules. Brain hurts now Nap time



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Indiana Ken

07-24-2020 18:16:31




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to 8n13325, 07-24-2020 10:31:17  
Fuel does not need ethanol to absorb water. If you were around before ethanol you should remember gas line freeze up in cold weather. The water collected in the fuel tank and/or dropped out with a temperature change would freeze due to the below freezing weather. The air craft industry does not use ethanol blended fuel and they still sump their tanks to remove water. This is true for gasoline and jet fueled aircraft.

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jack345

07-24-2020 11:51:26




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 Re: ethanol gas in reply to 8n13325, 07-24-2020 10:31:17  
Right on. Don't use unless planning to get it out of tank soon. Chainsaws, sawmill , tractors all get non-ethanol fuel & they work just great.



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