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Using compressed air to store energy

Energy storage isn't new, but demand for storage is climbing as the supply of wind and solar energy grows. Pumped water storage has been around for decades, notably at both sides of Niagara Falls, where they literally turn off the falls at night to divert energy to pumped storage. But you need a hydro plant and suitable geography for pumped water storage, and most of the good hydro sites in the US are already in use. So it's natural to look at alternative storage methods, and compressed air looks promising. I doubt it's anywhere near as efficient as hydro, due to heat loss, but if you have a glut of renewable energy to store you don't necessarily need very high efficiency.

I came across this <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroelectric_power_stations">list of pumped hydro storage plants bigger than 1 gigawatt</a>. It seems China has more of them than anyone else, and almost all of the facilities under construction are Chinese.
 
I think it's a foolish idea. It would take more energy to compress the cavern than they would gain especially with leaks they would never be able to plug.
 
> NO. Folks need to just give up on those wind turbines and build more nuclear plants.

Even if we replaced all our existing coal plants with nukes (which would take decades and isn't going to happen at any rate), we still need storage because steam plants in general don't handle demand fluctuation very well. That's why hydro and gas turbine plants are so desirable.
 
In the Amish community near here there is a whole field of LP Gas tanks (looks like that, no idea of pressure rating) and I was told they run air compressors like all night to fill the tanks with compressed air so they have sufficient capacity to power their air tools the next work day. I also heard of compressed air storage in huge underground reservoirs.

As an engineer the concept of storing energy appeals to me. It's a matter of the efficiency of the system that matters. I can live full time in my RV in which I use solar panels to charge my battery bank that store the energy for overnight use to power my CPAP, vent fans, water pump, LED lights, and 120 VAC (via Inverter) fridge, works great.

John T A fan of energy storage in general, there are lots of different approaches
 
I'm no expert but I think the money being spent on all the "new" energy sources would be better spent on methods to use coal cleanly.
Hey Mark, China is also building cities full of apartments that people buy but don't live in and roads to nowhere.
 

How efficient are air tools?
Many years ago I stopped at a good friends place. He and his son were sharping the sickle bar for their self propelled combine. They had it clamped to saw horses and were using a 4-1/2" side grinder, 120 volt hand held, and a pneumatic grinder, powered by a 3 hp. air compressor.
Every so often the guy running the air grinder had to stop and wait for the compressor to catch up, where the electric side grinder just kept going &amp; going.

Dusty
 
Something y'all seem to be missing is that the purpose of pumped storage is to MAKE MONEY. If you can buy energy during low demand and then sell it during peak demand for double what you paid for it, your storage plant only needs to be 50 percent efficient to break even.

Apparently folks here think power companies should be forced to operate unprofitable coal and nuclear plants rather than invest in highly profitable storage plants.
 
(quoted from post at 08:37:52 08/10/19) In the Amish community near here there is a whole field of LP Gas tanks (looks like that, no idea of pressure rating) and I was told they run air compressors like all night to fill the tanks with compressed air so they have sufficient capacity to power their air tools the next work day. I also heard of compressed air storage in huge underground reservoirs.

As an engineer the concept of storing energy appeals to me. It's a matter of the efficiency of the system that matters. I can live full time in my RV in which I use solar panels to charge my battery bank that store the energy for overnight use to power my CPAP, vent fans, water pump, LED lights, and 120 VAC (via Inverter) fridge, works great.

John T A fan of energy storage in general, there are lots of different approaches
Click to expand...
he concept may very well work, but..................
Efficiency will be a huge factor.
Nothing it article addresses numbers, such as how much storage is needed and can be obtained in this scheme. Why no numbers?
Maybe because it is only a drop in the bucket?
Intermountain Power plant is 1.9GW plant. Three days X 24 hours X 1.9GW = 137GWh.
All of the 5 hydro storage plants in the reference Mark provided, which gave GWH of storage total up to 127GWH. More data will be necessary before answering George's question.
 
> Nothing it article addresses numbers, such as how much storage is needed and can be obtained in this scheme. Why no numbers?

> Maybe because it is only a drop in the bucket?

Well, if it's cheap to build, it doesn't need to have a lot of capacity to be profitable. It's got to be much cheaper to drill a well and set up a compressed-air turbine than to build a hydro pumped-storage facility. Or build a battery-based storage plant.
 
I didn't even read it, because I know it's not practical, way too much energy wasted on heat! Someone else had the facts, you need to run a 3 hp compressor that will run a grinder that can't keep up with a 1/2 hp electric, that should explain it to most everyone. A more practical system is a power plant on the shore of Lake Michigan pumps water to a reservoir at a higher elevation and then use it to generate electricity during high demand.
 
I'm a free market capitalist (NOT a Socialist) so I'm okay with a company OR MYSELF lawfully making money and don't expect a company or its investors (certainly not me) to operate at a loss. If a company can make money and I can end up saving money as a result of their operation (be it energy storage or whatever), even if they're making money, HEY IM ALL FOR THAT count me in !!! I'm NOT one of those who believe a company should be "forced to operate unprofitable" that doesn't sound like a company that could last very long, I guess until the money runs out ???

John T
 
Totally agree with the above reasons why air sucks as a power sourced....other than impact wrench usage! Course now they are selling electric ones that would meet my price range if in the market for another one. Don't know how they compare on a ft-lb basis. Since I don't use one very often and have 4 already, efficiency isn't part of the equation.
 
(quoted from post at 06:35:56 08/10/19) Do you think this will really work?
compressed air storage
Click to expand...

Then someday will come the news headline;

2 square mile chunk of Utah suddenly drops a mile and a half into the earth resulting in what is being described as the largest man made seismic event in history.
 
Coal energy comes from its carbon. Making CO2 is complemented to a lesser degree (literally) from the coals hydrogen. To clean the coal combustion products (capturing the CO2) requires combining it with something else, like Calcium, or pumping it into depleted Gas wells or similar) these methods have major issues both, and their variations, take energy to make happen. The energy comes from the coal. This forces us to use it 20 to 40% faster than we are when we dump CO2 into the air. The other factor is that the locations suitable for deposition methods are not near the coal, and not near the power plants in most cases. Coal combustion releases radioactive elements into the atmosphere (no kidding look it up) and substantial Mercury. Just easy to use because we have been not good in any way. Google Long Wall Mining in Illinois. Look at the Satalite pictures of strip mines. As a Hoosier, I was in those mines and in those pits, and on those Gob Piles of waste. Nope. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 10:20:32 08/10/19) A more practical system is a power plant on the shore of Lake Michigan pumps water to a reservoir at a higher elevation and then use it to generate electricity during high demand.
Click to expand...

You are talking about the hydro storage poer plant in Ludington, MI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant

Creating the needed head in that location was no small task.
The "high dunes" topography can't have been more than 100 feet above lake level.

I remember driving past the site on US31 back when it was under construction.

mvphoto40895.jpg

[/img]
 
In the Garlits Museum in Ocala there is a car built by Art Malone that Used only compressed air to power the car down the drag strip. Air was stored in a huge tank the length of the car and the rear was some sort of air turbine.
 
This is not energy efficient, it counts on lower cost energy costs at night to compress, then release during the day when costs are MUCH higher.

Several companies do this.
 
> I'm a free market capitalist (NOT a Socialist) so I'm okay with a company OR MYSELF lawfully making money and don't expect a company or its investors (certainly not me) to operate at a loss.

Well, John, as you know public utilities are state-sanctioned monopolies, and their costs of building, operating and decommissioning power plants are passed on to consumers. Whether that's capitalist or socialist system is up for debate, but I'd say it's a bit of both.
 
[b:b176c1900f]Using compressed air to store energy.. [/b:b176c1900f]

Ask an ole Consolidated Freightway driver how good using compressed air as a stored engery source worked on one of those air start, single axle Freightliners back in the day.
 
I built some of that plant. It was a disaster from the start, being a four way partnership at first dissolving down to just one if I remember right. This sounds like just another of the wild dreams. Raccoon Mt. Pumped storage by Chatanooga seems sucessful but water is different than salt. Ask Public Service of CO about storing natural gass in old oil wells, and how to clean out miles of pipe and meters when you draw it back out.
I don't think I would want that salted compressed air running in anything of mine.
 

Too many people skipped physics class in high school . There would be fewer people embracing impractical concepts.
How about the Universal Gas Law? May as well mention the Laws of Thermodynamics too.
 
Solar is being pushed here in Michigan, yet Michigan ranks 47th out of the 48 continental states.

Dusty
 

The falls are not shut off . Just various amount of water diverted down the canal and the three tunnels to Beck I and Beck II.
The pumping station is a rather scrawny 174Mw .
Those thinking pumped storage is the answer. How to convince the environmentalists to allow flooding thousands of square miles , hundreds of feet high . And allow this water to fall into a second set of reservoirs equally large .
Where would these sites be located ?
 
> The falls are not shut off . Just various amount of water diverted down the canal and the three tunnels to Beck I and Beck II. The pumping station is a rather scrawny 174Mw . Those thinking pumped storage is the answer. How to convince the environmentalists to allow flooding thousands of square miles , hundreds of feet high . And allow this water to fall into a second set of reservoirs equally large . Where would these sites be located ?

Yes, that is the problem with hydro pumped storage. All the suitable sites are already taken, or are located where permits to build would never be issued. (I don't see a Bridal Veil Falls Pumped Storage Facility in our future.) But storage is still needed, especially as solar and wind capacity increases. Is compressed air the answer? Again, the problem is there are only so many sites where you can build a compressed air storage plant.
 
That's right they are regulated sanctioned industries and a company cant operate at a loss very long UNLESS they are subsidized and guess who that falls on

Take care

John T Capitalist and proud of it
 
It was done in the Netherlands 30 years ago. Nothing new about it. In some situations, it saves money. Does not make energy, nor save it. In the Netherlands, imported electricity is cheaper only part of the year. So when the price is low, it powers compressors to convert it into compressed air. When the price goes up, the air runs turbines to power generators. Not a lot different then water-storage systems in the USA to pump water at night when electric costs are low. Then let the water out during the day to generate. I lived near one of those water-storage places in central NY.

Our problem is how to make power, not how to store it - here in the USA. Well, except maybe if you live near Canada and their "hydro."
 
I am sure I will get flamed for this but oh well! Why isn't anyone looking at The Joe Newman motor? His last machine , Big Eureka put out around 7000 times the input. With his health failing he dismantled his machines to keep the power brokers from getting them before he died.
 
The cost of the power to pump the water into the reservoir is not cheaper at night. Not cheaper at anytime around the clock.

It is pumped at night because that is when the demand for power is low so as not overload the power source.
 
That is not true, I worked in that industry.

Costs for energy during high demands can be 100 times the cost of power during low demands.
 
> The cost of the power to pump the water
into the reservoir is not cheaper at night.
Not cheaper at anytime around the clock.

It's not that the cost to produce power is
cheaper off-peak versus peak. It's that the
VALUE of power on the wholesale energy
market varies greatly with demand. At times
wholesale prices in California have gone
negative, meaning producers have to PAY for
the grid to take their power.
 
RPM at 590 VOLTS
Battery Input Current ............ 10 milliampere
Battery Input Power .............. 6 Watts
Rotor Frictional Losses .......... 200 Watts
RF Current (rms) ................. 500 milliampere
RF Ohmic Losses in Coil .......... 190 Watts
Additional Loads ................. Fluorescent Tubes
Incandescent Bulbs
Fan (belt driven)
The frictional losses are computed from the measured drag coefficient. The ohmic losses are computed from the coil resistance. Without considering the additional loads, it is seen that the output energy of the machine exceeded the input by a factor of 65!
Oscillograph photos show that the current waveform is dominated This is on his 1st prototype. Later machines did much better.
 
(quoted from post at 09:46:40 08/11/19) I am sure I will get flamed for this but oh well! Why isn't anyone looking at The Joe Newman motor? His last machine , Big Eureka put out around 7000 times the input. With his health failing he dismantled his machines to keep the power brokers from getting them before he died.
Click to expand...

I have waited a long time to see the Joe Newman "answer" showup again .
 
Re . . "put out around 7000 times the input"

I know a few people who are like that after eating beans.
 
I attended several information seminars at the Gilboa Dam Project. According to those go gave the seminars - it was all about using power
when demand was less and not about the cost of power. I assume they knew what they were talking about.
 
NO it's not on common to have a peak/off peak fee schedule on electricity and you sometimes the actual charge per Kilowatt off peak is about 1/2 of on peak, demand
and peak charges still apply. Even to the point that some commercial buildings that use chilled water for cooling will make ice at night and cool with the ice
during the day to save peak power KWHs.
 
(quoted from post at 10:24:12 08/11/19) RPM at 590 VOLTS
Battery Input Current ............ 10 milliampere
Battery Input Power .............. 6 Watts
Rotor Frictional Losses .......... 200 Watts
RF Current (rms) ................. 500 milliampere
RF Ohmic Losses in Coil .......... 190 Watts
Additional Loads ................. Fluorescent Tubes
Incandescent Bulbs
Fan (belt driven)
The frictional losses are computed from the measured drag coefficient. The ohmic losses are computed from the coil resistance. Without considering the additional loads, it is seen that the output energy of the machine exceeded the input by a factor of 65!
Oscillograph photos show that the current waveform is dominated This is on his 1st prototype. Later machines did much better.
Click to expand...

Are you getting that info from this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EL_bLOK8_A
 
(quoted from post at 11:38:10 08/11/19) That is not true, I worked in that industry.

Costs for energy during high demands can be 100 times the cost of power during low demands.
Click to expand...

Yes if you have to pay some other company for the power to pump.


Isn't it typical that the stored hydro facility is owned by the same power company that supplies the power to recharge the storage during off peak times?
So the cost (to [b:05de6c2046]generate[/b:05de6c2046]) is the same, day or night.
The price goes up day and night because the power company can charge different rates for peak times versus off peak times.
I bet they would love to charge peak rates 100% of the time.
 
(quoted from post at 06:59:30 08/11/19) The cost of the power to pump the water into the reservoir is not cheaper at night. Not cheaper at anytime around the clock.

It is pumped at night because that is when the demand for power is low so as not overload the power source.
Click to expand...

Growing up we had a large water heater in the basement. I remember it sat on the floor and dang well reached to the ceiling. It had a locked box on the side of it that the electric company set the on and off times. During the off time it was not available to heat water. I was told we got a lower rate on power since we used less electricity during the day and more at night. It did not matter to us since it was so large and we always had hot water. It was my understanding it was all about keeping their base generating units operating at peak efficiency. The base units were able to generate electric power at a low cost.

In the case of solar or wind power the economics are likely different. Perhaps at peak power or peak wind you have more power than markets to sell it. Therefore the need for storage. Or the market may pay more for constant power regardless of sun or wind , in that case you need storage to play in the market place.
 
(quoted from post at 15:50:02 08/11/19)
(quoted from post at 06:59:30 08/11/19) The cost of the power to pump the water into the reservoir is not cheaper at night. Not cheaper at anytime around the clock.

It is pumped at night because that is when the demand for power is low so as not overload the power source.
Click to expand...

Growing up we had a large water heater in the basement. I remember it sat on the floor and dang well reached to the ceiling. It had a locked box on the side of it that the electric company set the on and off times. During the off time it was not available to heat water. I was told we got a lower rate on power since we used less electricity during the day and more at night. It did not matter to us since it was so large and we always had hot water. It was my understanding it was all about keeping their base generating units operating at peak efficiency. The base units were able to generate electric power at a low cost.

In the case of solar or wind power the economics are likely different. Perhaps at peak power or peak wind you have more power than markets to sell it. Therefore the need for storage. Or the market may pay more for constant power regardless of sun or wind , in that case you need storage to play in the market place.
Click to expand...
his has gotten pretty far off topic, but the more I read, the more it sounds like a scheme to separate tax payer from their money. Don't ever expect to see this happen.
 
The air-storage thing sort of made sense when I read about it 30 years ago in the Netherlands. They were producing their own wind energy for
half the year. But for the other half, no wind and they had to buy very high priced electricity from Germany. So, their plan was to harness
more wind energy when the wind was good and use it to make electricity when the wind stopped. I have no idea how it ever worked out in the
end. At least they had a plan that almost made sense.
 
You sure are 100% right, but you can convert mass into energy E=MC2 by manipulating a DC voltage into a large coil of wire that is magnetically coupled to a permanent magnet that rotates like a motor. As the magnet rotates past the windings, the magnetic field is cut & energy is produced , plus the torque also produces energy. His machines also produce a radio frequency which is not even measured. Why don't you study his circuitry & find how it is flawed so you can improve on it to get more out from less input? We need solid state switches that can handle thousands of volts instead of brushes on a crude hand built commutator.
 
Teddy, I'm not going to respond any further since this has nothing to do with the original post and I don't want to encourage your latest relapse. Up until now you've been on good behavior for several years.

But if you feel compelled keep discussing Mr. Newman's perpetual motion machine, start a new post on Tractor Tales and we can talk thermodynamics 'til the cows come home. T. Tales is not indexed by search engines, so our hosts won't have to worry about YT being tagged as a home for crackpots.
 
(quoted from post at 05:54:06 08/12/19) Fair enough, as I can tell you don't have a clue as to what he did.
Click to expand...

I don't either. But I also don't want to spend a week researching it.

You made a pretty bold statement earlier; "[i:e96325bd39]put out around 7000 times the input[/i:e96325bd39]". Yet when asked, you never did say where that information could be found.

It "sounds" to me so far like he is trying to take advantage of EM fields, among other things -- that rather than generate electricity at a specific voltage or frequency, that he's trying to utilize [u:e96325bd39]all[/u:e96325bd39] voltages and frequencies. Is this incorrect? If so, tell me where to look to learn more.
 
https://fringeenergy.com/full-disclosure-the-joseph-newman-motor-is-back-better-than-ever/ You may find
this interesting. Please E mail me . Thanks.
 
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?
q=Joe+Newmans+Big+Eureka&view=detail&mid=2F89E1CC7492511B73592F89E1CC7492511B7359&FORM=VIRE Just past the
21 minute mark.
 
(quoted from post at 13:45:46 08/12/19) https://www.bing.com/videos/search?
q=Joe+Newmans+Big+Eureka&amp;view=detail&amp;mid=2F89E1CC7492511B73592F89E1CC7492511B7359&amp;FORM=VIRE Just past the
21 minute mark.
Click to expand...

If those "engine" worked . Why does the military still use nuclear reactors ?
 
(quoted from post at 15:37:29 08/13/19) Mine is open in classic view.
Click to expand...

Yep, found that out. After all this time, didn't realize I had to log in to Classic View if I was already logged in to Modern View. My apologies.

Sent you a quick email, by the way.
 

The most troubling fact exposed by these topics . Is the general lack of understanding of basic high school physics . The three basic laws of thermodynamics and the universal gas law to name a few .
 
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