Doing a little welding related research...

I wanted to get some opinions since there are a lot of farmers and occasional welders here as well as more experienced welders. (The people of late who just want to attack anything I say need not respond)

A while ago I needed some O/A cylinders for a small job but no one rents cylinders for less than a month and you have to pay for the entire contents regardless of how much you use. I didn't want to pay 2 or $300 for $20 worth of gas. I was thinking there has to be more people in my situation that need a torch for a few hours but don't want spend $500+ just to do a small job. I was thinking of a rental shop that would rent a complete outfit with cylinders but only charge for the gas used. There would also be other welding equipment for rent. Maybe even a complete self contained skid(or small trailer) complete with torch, welder, grinder, vice etc. that has everything a person would need. Say a farmer got a deal on some drill stem and wanted to put up a nice steel fence. He could rent the skid for a weekend and save hundreds over hiring it out. I also have never seen special tools like track cutting machines for rent. I'm sure there must be shops and welding trucks that do long cuts and big circles on occasion that don't want to fork over $2000 or more for a machine that's not used very often.

I also looked into what welding courses were available locally. There's only two places that offer courses. The technical school that does the apprentice training has beginner welding courses in the evenings. The courses are 36 hours for $600. There are seperate courses for O/A, stick and MIG welding. To take all 3 would cost $1200. The other place mostly caters to welder testing and training for professional welders or people who want to get into the welding trade. A pre employment welding course covers 252 hours of practical welding and 144 hours of theory. Students can challenge the first year apprenticeship after completing the course. The total cost for the course, the books and the apprenticeship tests is $7225.00 They will do private instruction for non professionals but charge $35 an hour. I don't think they get too many hobbiest types but if you want to learn how to weld titanium, that's the place.

So what I was wondering is if it would be a good idea to have a rental shop specifically geared to welding and also offer more reasonable welding courses for non professional welders. I was thinking maybe have courses for 3 to 6 people at a time and cover several different areas. Maybe 3 neighbors could come together and take a 10 or 20 hour course to update their welding skills. I could charge somewhere in the $10 to $15 an hour range as long as I had at least 3 students. I was even thinking I could go into places like Home Depot and see if I could advertise a course for people that bought a welder but have never used one. Maybe offer a 10% discount or something?

So my idea would be to have a specialty welding rental(also have welding supplies for sale for convenience) and also have welding courses for beginners or even people with more than the basic skills. I wouldn't really be competing with the other 2 places that offer courses. As far as renting, there are tons of places to rent a welder but no where to rent a torch and cylinders. Even the places that rent welders, usually don't have the rods and other stuff you need to go with the welder. Do you think I could be onto something? What would you be willing to pay for a welding course? Thanks in advance for your feedback. Dave

Before you jump in with both feet, call an insurance agent and ask him what liability insurance would run for a rental OA set...especially with little, or very limited, ability to "screen" the renters.

Then after changing your soiled bloomers, you might want to re-think the concept.

135 Fan ,

Don't know about Canada , but here in the USA all teachers must be certified and licensed in some form or fashion to show that they have the requirements. Also, as Buzzman said , you have to think about insurance and other liability coverage , not only in your classroom , but with the rental stuff ,too. But you never know until you try . It might actually do good . Someone somewhere will need those kinds of services sooner or later . But , be prepared for the sooner and later part as there may not be a high dfemand for those services , the rental part anyway . As for the teaching , I could use some welding classes myself. I have two welders , but don't do much welding as I really don't know how inspite of an high school Ag. welding class.


Whizkid

Tired of the new job already?

Go for it! Stick every nickle you have into it! Good learning experience!

Who would you complain about then???????????????

My point being, you MIGHT control who you rent to...but once it leaves your sight, you have no control over who the RENTER allows to use the rig.

For rental purposes, might consider starting with one of those "papoose" kinda tank setups that can be hand-carried.

Looks like you've acquired some real fans here.

I don't know where you live but I think your tech-school is way out of line for tuition unless this is a private school-by about a factor of three or four compared to my area.

Your cylinder rental seems terribly high as well. We pay demurrage by the week at about 15 cents a day, I think, plus the cost of a full cylinder of gas. A "T" oxygen, nitrogen or CO2 is something like $35. I don't know about acetylene.

As for insurance, I doubt that cost is that great. My wife has a professional $1M "umbrella policy" covering malpractice which is something like $250 a year I think.

Your mileage may vary.

kevin

I consider myself a small timer compared to you guys who weld for a living. I don't understand why you don't have an O/A set for your own use. I only use a couple of bottles a year, and I couldn't be without them. Just swapped some mt's the other day. Best $99 I ever spent. One trip to the local welding shop would cost me more than a year's supply of O/A.

About renting out an O/A set - Too much risk for me. That's one tool that doesn't get outa my sight. After the explosion, there wouldn't be enough evidence left to clear you of liability. I've seen horrible mis-use of torch sets on construction sites by supposedly knowledgeable people.

Please don't think I'm attacking you. I'll be the first to admit that you can weld circles around me.

Paul

Not knowing your age , I'm 65 & through the years if I got interested in a project , I didn't rent or borrow tools or equipment nor did I ask others what I should do . I went out & bought what I needed to do the projects & now have my own equipment . I never took courses either . What I know & what I can do has been learned by hands on experience mostly . My garage is set up so I can do autobody repairs & painting . Also I have 3 complete torch setups , with one being a small jewelers set up for extremely small projects . I also have the equipment to do various sandblasting . Now I've seen you ask questions here many times , which is ok , but sometimes as we grow up & find various interests ,its best not to ask some of the questions you've asked or situations you've shared on here & not expect some ugly comments . Now as to what you should do about welding equipment , you know your financial situation we don't . Those rental places aren't still in business by letting you use their equpment & fuel without making big bucks off you (guaranteed). The only way for them to know what fuel you used would be to have their cylinders weighed at a supplier which would cost you extra dollars . They'd charge you the price of full tanks whether you used it or not . You're also charged for equipment inspection after you return it & replacement parts if needed ( sometimes even if not needed). How do you think they have been able to buy so many pieces of equipment in order for people such as yourself to rent & stay operating ? I know a guy personally that owns & operates a rental center. He's even asked me to let him rent some of my equipment to him so he could rent it out to others . I have nice, & well maintained equipment with no problems , so why would I be stupid enough to fall for his scheme to make money with my stuff I ask . My recommendation would be , if you don't wanta spend money to set yourself up with your own welding equipment , then take the parts to a welder who knows what he's doing . Then you pay him & won't have to worry about all your other concerns .I do hope I made this clear enough ? God bless

You can rent torches but you have to pay for full cylinders. Just about everything can be rented and a lot of it is more dangerous than a torch. Insurance for my MX track is about $2000 a year. Lots of potential for injury there. One of the welding instructors rented a post pounder and lost a finger. I really doubt you have to have a teaching agree to teach a basic welding course. I am licensed as a welder. Even to become a teacher at the tech school, you don't need a teaching degree, just tons of welding experience and a B pressure tickets. Dave

The school with the pre employment course is a licensed private vocational school and apparently the only one of its kind in Canada. Students can apply for grants and/or student loans. Monthly cylinder rentals are about $15/cyl. but the contents can cost $200+. A 244 oxygen is around $70/$80 if I remember right. Could be wrong though but I know it's a lot more than $35. I do have a torch and used to lease cylinders. I was out of welding for a couple years, so it didn't make sense to pay to lease cylinders I wasn't using. Dave

I've seen people that claim they've welded for years that I could improve their welding in less than 10 minutes! A friend of mine bought a little welder for occasional use. I watched him weld, then he watched what I did different. He never thought a slight change would make that much difference. In a lot of cases, a self taught welder is like a self taught rocket scientist. Even trucker 40 agree's that having someone with experience show you is the best way to learn welding. Sounds like you've got some pretty greedy rental places near you. Dave

One reason for the expense of welding classes is the cost of consumable materials: electrodes, gas, filler and coupons. That's maybe a quarter to a third of the cost of a course at typical community college.

Your rental shop idea sounds a lot like another idea that took off back in the seventies: do-it-yourself auto repair shops. These places would rent space and tools to do-it-yourselfers. They would provide advice and assistance to inexperienced DIYers. These places didn't last because you can't charge enough to make any money. People will take their cars to a mechanic before they'll pay enough rent to make a do-it-yourself shop profitable. And the owners of these shops often found themselves doing the work on customers' cars for free.

Your idea of a self-contained welding rig is a good one. But you should be doing the work yourself and charging premium rates for it. Check around and see if there is a market for portable welding services in your area. Chances are that if there is someone else is already doing it.

Don't forget the safety issues. You never know when current will flow though the tanks.

I would think the cost of maintaining a torch set for anybody who walks in the door would be more than the rent you could ever get. Valves shut off too tight can be damaged. Regulators can be terribly misused and abused. Hoses get cut and burned. Tips can easily get damaged and improper cleaning can further damage them. There are a lot of people out there who think they know how to take care of stuff who cause much damage in a very short time. I suspect you take very good care of your tools and would be shocked by the cost of following those who aren't as careful.
I think the idea of offering courses for people who want to learn is good. I think for the people you are aiming to teach, you would be better off using AC buzz boxes and maybe smaller torches so they will get experience with the kind of tools they will probably end up having available to them for most of their work.

This posting isn't just about welding. It's about the profits of the artificial scarcities of knowledge and supplies. It's a shame too, because today with the TV and computer, we all could be expert in all fields. Maybe it's Mickey Mouse's fault. Disney keeps extending the copyright laws.

I watched an experienced welder burn across the arm of a bystander that was going to help. The bystander had no idea of how hot that flame was 10-12 inches from the tip. Any rental welder may want to clean it up before returning it and oil the threads for you. Yikes.

First thing to check is the cost of your liability insurance. You might not want to pursue any further

I was just going to ask if one of your nice carts was going to be for rent , but you beat me to it!!

I dont think your torch rental idea will work very good.Most people who need a torch have one these days.If you did rent a torch would probably not come back or if it did would be all broken gauges and tanks beat up and tip messed up.
The welding course seems like a good idea.Most people are never going to get a job welding anything except for themselves anyway.If they want to weld bad enough they will take a welding course way before they will lay out a lot of money for a welding school.
I was at Lowes the other day and saw that they had a torch with a propane tank and an oxygen tank for less than 100 dollars.I just glanced at it but I dont think it would cut,but I might be wrong.I think it was for brazing and heating.Anyway,maybe a torch with a propane bottle and then you just need to buy an oxygen tank would work.You can buy a torch for around 100 dollars from Harbor Freight and other places.You can find them used on Craigs List or other places,maybe an auction.
If thats still too much money maybe the rig they sell at Lowes will work for a small job if you dont need to cut with it.

Most places you have to have a license to hang on the wall.It wouldnt mean that you were an expert welder,its just a money deal for the county or whatever you have there to say that you jumped through their hoops.Then you would probably need to hang you welding license ,in a frame,on the wall too.
So there is a county license,maybe a state license,and a welding license,plus you would probably need some insurance too before you ever started.
It has less to do with whether you are a good welder and more to do with jumping through government hoops.

All three of those courses for $1200??????? VERY reasonable!!!! can't beat that...

Ken
The reason Dave asks his questions on this forum is he has no friends. Any friends he did have he lost due to being a know it all. Which only leaves the good people on here to ask for their opinions.
Which wouldn't be bad, except whenever someone tells him what he doesn't want to hear he takes it as a personal attack. That's when it gets fun to poke him with a stick, and there are a lot of sticks. The funniest part is when he tries to drag others into his argument, it happens every time. This thread its Trucker40.

Dave fight your own fight and leave others out!

I've put my stick down.

Scott

There's tons of portable rigs in Alberta. The going rate is $75/hr and up. Most farmers and such won't pay that kind of money unless it's a really critical job.

The rental idea is the same as other rental places except catering to welding and fabrication. Customers would rent what they need for their job and then bring it back when done. I've rented stuff in the past where they told you how to use it and specific safety concerns for it. It only takes a couple of minutes to explain the use and safety issues for a torch set. A torch set is a lot less dangerous than a chain saw for example and you can rent those. The $600 courses aren't really a bad price but all 3 would be $1800. I made a typo previously. The instructers there make really good money, probably overtime or a bonus for doing the courses in the evening. That's where a lot of cost comes from. The private school charges a premium because clients can come when they want and there is no competition. The guy makes a fortune. Dave

$1800 for the 3 courses. I made a typo last night. Farmers and hobbiests wouldn't pay that. Dave

Guys that look like clowns in their bib overalls!!!!!! Dave

I agreed with trucker. He's said many times that having someone with experienced show you is the best way to learn. He didn't take exception to that. He just gave his opinion on my idea. That's all I asked for. In fact he thought my idea of course was a good idea. Imagine that. I wasn't arguing or trying to start a fight and certainly can't make people respond to my posts. Why are so many people responding when they have absolutely nothing to offer? Were they bullies in school and need a new outlet or just have nothing better to do? Dave

I'd need a business license and insurance. Any business needs insurance. I have a welding license. Dave

"In fact he thought my idea of course was a good idea"

Of course!

"Why are so many people responding when they have absolutely nothing to offer?"

Because they can.

"I wasn't arguing or trying to start a fight"

When you tell someone something they built is "unsafe" and not say why its "unsafe" on the same post, is trying to start an argument. If you feel something is unsafe then state why, not lets ask so and so why he thinks its unsafe.

Everything is unsafe if put in the wrong hands.
90% of the advice given on this board is unsafe!
Because you don't know how that advice will be used and by whom it will be used.

As to your research. If a person needs a torch set they will buy one. As for teaching others to weld, I would charge by the hour and do it one on one with their welder in their shop.
The main reason is you are teaching them on the machine they will be using and making sure they know how to adjust and use their machine.
Plus they pay for the consumables and the power.

Scott

My comments blow were made on the basis of what I saw with the business my dad and grand-dad ran for just over 50 years.

They ran a garage, and Grand-dad did the welding. But they also had a pump with a 5 hp Briggs motor that they would rent out. Of course, everyone who rented th pump complained that th pump rental was too expensive, but they rented it anyway. And many of the renters brought it back with parts missing, hoses missing, or even parts broken off the motor. I'm pretty sure that after everything was said and done, if they broke even on the pump rental proposition, it'd be surprising.

And then you want to talk about renting out a piece of equipment that, in the wrong hands, becomes a bomb. As I said, you might control who you rent it to, but you can't control who THEY allow to use it, or misuse it.

Back in the heyday of the family garage [1941-1991], liability for incompetent people was only becoming the issue it is today. These days, if THEY kill someone with equipment YOU rented to them, guess who is liable for damages? And a single million-dollar umbrella policy isn't much protection when juries often make multimillion-dollar judgments.

Those are the thoughts I wanted to convey. While I think your idea is useful, I think that in today's ambulance-chaser lawyer-filled society, it's simply a non-starter unless you have deep pockets to begin with.

Anybody that would feel the need or have a desire to rent a fully equipped welding trailer probably already has the equipment needed to do the job. You don't just get a wild hair to commence a major fabrication project unless you know what you are getting into. Why pay that much to rent something, might as well buy it and have it.

It should say "a" course. I forgot the a. My bad.

As far as the welding cart, I said there were some safety issues with it. The original poster asked why I said that. I gave a couple of examples of what he could change, without going into much detail( to avoid hurting his feelings), and in the same post said the cart was a good idea. No one else had even responded yet. Then the posts started coming slamming me for knocking the cart. I looked on the net and found evidence from an excellent source to back up what I was saying regarding the cylinders. A few other posters also mentioned some safety concerns but the bulk of the posts were directed at me for critizing the cart. I think that without all the posts directed at me, the original poster wouldn't have also taken such exception to my concerns. The posts directed at me got so bad, the entire thread was removed. Nobody even paid attention to a real safety issue. Other posters turned it into a campaign against me. I gave an honest opinion and backed it up. It wasn't to hurt the builders feelings. It was to keep him from getting injured or having his cylinders become scrap. Ever heard the term, "better to be safe than sorry"? Hurt feelings is better than physical hurt any day of the week. If people don't want to heed safety warnings, then by all means have your cylinders where electric current could cause them to explode, your fingers could get off by not having a guards on your grinders, your 220 power cord could easily get damaged, objects could fly into your cylinders, etc., etc.

If I had to drive to peoples homes to give individual instruction, I'd have to charge at least $50/hr and probably a lot more. If the shop wasn't safe or their machine didn't work properly, I'd still have to get paid for my time. Do think people would refer others if I charged them and couldn't help them? I could have some low end machines for training and also some better machines so people could see the difference. Their existing machine(s) could be the cause of 90% of their problems and frustration.

Some people do. Red-D-Arc has a fleet of over 45,000 welders. The shortest rental is a week. Lots of rig welders rent or lease their machines instead of buying them. Dave

I thank you Buzzman72 for your input. That's the kind I was looking for, negative or positive. I think other rental items like chainsaws are much more dangerous than a properly set up torch set and they could be loaned to anyone too. Rental shops charge for cleaning and damage and/or missing parts on rental equipment. Not too many tool rental places close but you're probably right on the deep pockets. Dave

ScottP,

If , according to you , 135 Fan is asking his question on here simply because he has no friends .... then I guess that seeing how you, along with everyone else on here , myself included ,post questions on here , then I guess none of us has friends . I post on here and I have friends . I just post because I want more advice on stuff that I'm unsure of or don't know about. Lots of time I ask my friends before I ask on here and if they don't know or I want more advice, then I ask on here . So, my point is, just because he posts on here dosen't mean that he dosen't have friends. He could have or he could not have friends . But, if he dosen't, then if that was the case ,then that would mean that everyone on here posts because they don't have friends , you included . That what you basically said , that he posts on here because he has no friends , so then are you saying that whoever posts on here does so simply because they have no friends . Sounds like you are saying that everyone who posts on here does so because they have no friends . Well , then that would include you too, since you post on here . I'm not sticking up for 135 Fan , as I'm not in the middle of this . I just found your post a little insulting . Just because someone posts on here dosen't mean that they dont have friends .

Whizkid

P.S. By the way ,like the old saying goes - Now days you don't have friends , you have acquaintainces !!!!

And actually , I think that it's silly the way that all of you guys fuss and fight over something thats posted on a computer site . It's silly to fuss about what someone that you've never met or will ever meet , has typed on a computer screen. Stop being childish !!!!!

Whizkid

P.S. Yes, I know that I'll probably catch h3ll over my two replies to your post . But, guess what ???? I don't care !!!

This was supposed to be posted under my reply to ScottP.

Whizkid

And actually , I think that it's silly the way that all of you guys fuss and fight over something thats posted on a computer site . It's silly to fuss about what someone that you've never met or will ever meet , has typed on a computer screen. Stop being childish !!!!!
Whizkid

P.S. Yes, I know that I'll probably catch h3ll over my two replies to your post . But, guess what ???? I don't care !!!

ScottP,


While you are right about 90% of the advice on here being unsafe because we don't know who will use it or how ( being the internet and this site are open to the public then anyone other than the intended person can see it. ) ..... Then if you that way about it then why do you come here ???

Whizkid

I agree with you whizkid. I wonder if anyone considered that I was asking on here because... wait for it... there are a lot of farmers and other people on here that use welding that aren't professionals? I thought it might be an easy way to do some simple market research with a big group of people of the same demographic I would target the service(s) to. Apparently, most don't want to give relative feedback, they just want to find fault with anything I post, even if I am just asking for opinions on a specific idea. I am really confused why so many people who "aren't my friends" spend so much time reading my posts and picking me apart. All I wanted was opinions on basic welding courses and welding related rentals. Dave

CRYSTAL!!!!!!! Right you are. KEN-PA.
LOU

ScottP

I must disagree with your statement that Dave has no friends! If you look back at the pages over the last few weeks you will see that he has a big following.

However I must also say that to my knowlage myself and others have never said Dave does not know how to weld. What we all have told him is that he is not the only one who does know how to weld. I have no doubt when I read his stories that he is knowlegable about welding and is also very proud of his education in this trade.And there is nothing wrong with that.I also think he in his own way is trying to help others but comes off as a know it all.

Pherhaps if your aproach was different Dave you would get a diff response.This is only my opinion. I have been welding and repairing things. for better than 30 years and have learned alot from that. I do remember my Dad telling me one day If you really wan"t to teach somebody something,Son you have to gain there respect first.

Funny thing this is the same thing I learned from a drill instructer in the Navy a few yrs latter.The very same words from a man I hated one day and had the utmost repect for 6 weeks latter.

That was over 30 yrs ago and I still hear it today,and still repect both of them.

Again this is only my opinion,and that is what you have been asking for,negitive or positive as your own post stated. mnoliverguy

We give you an opinion, tell you it won't work, and yet you don't listen, have to come back with some remark like a typical know-it-all. You've been run off of several boards already, I guess this one is the only one left with enough goody two-shoes to be your internet friends. But it sure is fun to keep poking at you.

ENTERTAINMENT!
Pure and simple.

I don't care either.

Dave,

With most of the high schools in the US having shut down their shop programs, there is growing interest in the younger generation for skills in the metal forming and fabricating hobbies. I am a member of the Guild of Metalsmiths in Minnesota, and we have over 300 members. Our group consists of all types of metal forming, from blacksmithing, to jewelry making, to fabricating, and welding. We have some members who are true craftsmen in their specific trade, and many members who are wanting to learn specific skills from the most experienced. Some of our members have great historical interests and some others are certified welders for the airlines and aerospace manufacturing companies. I am learning skills from some true experts.

As to the teaching license "requirement" some have talked about, that is not needed (43 years ago I earned a life license for teaching in the State of Minnesota). But no one has ever asked about the license, and probably no one even cares. As a group we provide specialty classes which almost always fill up and usually have demand for more. I have taught some of the basic welding classes to 6 students at a time. But I really enjoy teaching welding to one or 2 students at a time. As part of our group, I do not charge for my time, but give my "expertise" to others as I have received the expertise from others of the group at no cost. What this boils down to is my observation that there is a market for teaching these skills. Some of the students have great artistic abilities and want to learn to weld as a way to express their art. But most have an interest in repair, and fabricating functional items. I currently have 2 students, a guy in his mid 20's who is currently enrolled in Med school, but has a family farm history, and his wife, a very creative gal who has high level artistic talents. They are fun people to work with, but due to med school costs, they have very little $$. He loves the welding as a way to get away from the intense book learning his med school courses require. She sees it as a new medium for artistic expression.

Could I make some kind of living from this kind of teaching?? I've thought about it, but I'd hate to be tied to having to do it multiple times every day. For right now, I am having fun with it and that is all I care about for now. But I do see a trend for a marketable skill building business.

As to the nay-sayers who have responded to your question in an ugly manner, I had a sign above my desk in the prep area of my physics lab which read: "Ne Illigitum Carborundum", Latin roughly translated into "Don't let the ba$tards grind you down"

Paul in MN

Dave, what Paul said.

You might start with an ad in Craigslist for helping people improve their welding. Your garage or theirs. X dollars an hour plus so much per rod, foot of wire, torch use, and scrap metal plus any travel.

I've done the full blown vo-tech course over 35 years ago. Just need a little refresher. I'd pay someone for an hour or two of time and material to look over my shoulder and give a little advice. Just the basics on rod position and what to watch for. Wouldn't take much time with my limited baby welder but I'd travel to a better setup.

You could adjust the amps up and down while they weld to show what how they work. Help them for an hour or so and send them home to practice and do another one later. Evenings and weekends.

I really appreciate your response Paul. I went to a good trade school and in the mid 90's they turned it into a science and technology school. I used to visit my old welding teacher and even he thought it was a shame. All the welding equipment, machine shop equipment, carpentry equipment etc. was auctioned off. I think a big part of it was that high school counsellors weren't trying to interest any Jr. High students in the trades.

I try not to let the ugly responses bother me but there's only so much a person can take. I seem to get a lot of flack for pointing out safety issues or correcting false information. I'm not doing it to start a pi$$ing contest. I'm trying to keep someone from getting injured. I am confident in my welding knowledge. If I wasn't, I wouldn't respond in the first place. A lot of people don't put much emphasis on the theory behind welding. It's a vital aspect of it. Dave

Thanks bc. If you can't find an Idealarc, I'd seriously consider one of those Everlast machines like Puddles got for less than $350. Yes, having someone right there can make a huge difference. A slight change in rod angle can too. Unfortunately, I didn't get as many responses to my questions as I did a bunch of ugly responses, as Paul put it. Dave