How bout these beads??

ey guys!! Thanks for all the replies and advice on my last thread...

Anyways, last night and this afternoon, i spent some time in the garage practicing, and emphsysing on being steady. First, i worked a little with my least favorite rod:



Mostally with the skinny stuff, 3/32, but a little bit of 1/8 in there too...












And then, this afternoon, i got out the 7018 and tried it some. Whats the difference between 7018 and 7014??










any advice?? Once more, the 7018 started easier, was easier to use, and even looks better than the 6011. What is the porpose of 6011?? Does it have some amazing quality about it??

Anyways... Sorry for the bad 7018 pictures. Ive been borrowing a camera that took the good pics, but had to give it back. lol. $150-$200 buys a really nice digital camera, but it also buys a lot of rod and scrap metal to work with, or goes a long ways towards a nicer used welder, something other than the buzzbox.

Thanks in advance everyone!! This welding stuff sure is fun

Lance;

Be careful with your craters(where the weld stops).
There is a tendency for cracks to start there.
It helps if you back up the bead a little before you stop.

Vern

Practice makes perfect.

Keep at it. Make sure you watch the puddle of molten metal, not the arc or the slag. It just takes time to get your eye and hand trained to make that molten pool do what you want to do.

6011 is a good all around rod because it "freezes" quickly (won"t land on your head if you are welding overhead or out of position) and it also penetrates deeply.

I"ll let other discuss the merits of 7018.

There is really no bad rod just bad applications to use it on.

Good luck.

P.S.

Make sure you weld in a well ventilated area.

looking good Lanse might want to kick up the heat a little you know amps. kind of hard to tell but looks a little cold in the pic. will flow and hold better the hotter you run it. still a LOT better than I could do at your age.

Lanse, I am not a professional welder by any means, but 6011 is by far the worst rod to try and learn on.

Go and get yourself some 1/8 " 6013. I guarantee you that it will be easier to weld with and you will weld much better, and the better your welding the faster you will catch on. 6011 is one of the most difficult rods to weld with because you sort of have to whip it.

But trust me and try some 6013. When you weld the 6013 make tiny circles with the puddle while you welding along if that makes any sense to you.

First off thats real good for a beginner.I take it the welds around the hole and the next one are 7018.If so, you have already improved a lot.Speed is starting to make a little more sense to you as your welds seem to be more uniform.

If you havent found that line yet,and it is hard to see,but on 7018 right behind the puddle there is a line where the slag is laying down on the weld.Dont worry about the slag but watch the line.If you see the corners of the line are bent back means too fast,bent forward means too slow,straight across means just right on speed.

6011 is made for rusty dirty metal.It penetrates real deep.If you had to weld say a 1/2 inch thick plate you would grind a v in it and leave about a 1/8 inch thick edge on it.Then you would gap it about 1/16 th inch apart and weld it uphill with a single weld of 6011 burning it completely through and welding it up.Then you grind all of the slag off and weld it with 7018 uphill and fill up the V with beads until its out of the top of the V and rounded over.That is about as strong of a weld as you can make with a rod.You can use this proceedure with other rods and not use the 6011,or make the whole weld with 6011,or even other rods,but you have to get all of the slag off of the weld before you put another pass on.
The 7018 is for stuff you want welded that has to be strong and is made of good strong steel like structural steel and things that are built out of steel.You could build a piece up with 7018 and turn it down with a lathe or mill it down or grind it down and it would have as good of strength as new steel not heat treated.

6011 is also a good rod for steel.Its not as strong as 7018,but it will weld rusty dirty stuff better than most any other rod.The main thing about 6011 is to get all of the slag off before you put a pass over it or next to it.It can get slag inside of the weld,called a slag inclusion and it makes that weld worthless.You have to grind or air arc it out and do it over or it will break.6011 is a good rod to tack pieces before you weld with 7018.You just weld right through the 6011 tacks like they arent even there after chipping them good.6011 will stretch farther than 7018 before breaking I seem to remember.Think of this,a piece of baling wire will break easy if you bend it back and forth.If you had a piece of wire made out of 7018 it would break quicker than a piece of wire made out of 6011 because its stiffer.But if you try and pull it apart the wire made out of 7018 will take more pulling on it because its made of stronger,stiffer, metal.Either 6011 or 7018 is more than 3 times stronger than brazing with braze rod and a torch.Maybe more than that because a braze weld that was good and strong would need to be done by somebody who is good at it and made it good and thick.A spot of braze is probably a tenth as strong as a spot of 6011 or 7018.

Im not a patient person,so I take a grinder and knock the slag off of my 6011 weld and weld over it with 7018.7018 chips a lot easier,but you have to get all of the slag off too because it might give you some trouble if its cold and you try and weld over it.I dont like to spend very long chipping slag is why I use a grinder.Also it seems to find my neck and stick to it if I am underneath something welding.

You are making some good looking welds for somebody that hasnt welded a lot.It might be time to try and find some more scrap and try grinding a bevel on it and butt 2 peices together and try and weld a v groove.If you do just try and keep it in the middle and dont worry about filling up the V on the first pass.It might take 3 passes and maybe more to fill it up,but fill it in the middle first,then on one side,then on the other holding it straight and not weaving,that is called stringer passes.After you do that a few times try one with a v and make a middle pass and try and weave a pass on top of it.Where a weave would come in better is like welding a thick piece on top of a flat plate.You can make a pass trying to push the weld up,but weave and see what it looks like.If it doesnt work like that you can build up passes to weld a thick piece on top of another piece.

There is a lot to welding,but you seem to be doing good.A trick for welding thin stuff with an AC welder is use 7018 go real fast.If you go too slow you will burn a hole right then.It is better to mess up the first pass but dont burn a hole and clean all the slag off and put another pass on it,than it is to try and fill holes up.You are a a ways away from that now,But I figured I would tell you in case you want to try it and see if you can do it.Another thing is to find some real small rod and turn it way down.Its hard to find but if you find some it will work.You might have to settle for 6013 or something but if you do it will work for thin metal.

A better welder?Well there are lots of different kinds of welders.I would say MIG is better all around and easier to weld with,but there is nothing wrong with an AC welder.You might want a better welder like a pipeliner or something if you were going to weld for a living,and they are nice for making field repairs,but for what you are trying to do an AC welder will probably work for most things except thin metal.You might get the hang of it,But I know its hard to weld thin stuff.

6013 is the easiest rod to get slag inclusions with.Its also not deep penetrating.It lays on top of the metal,not deeply penetrated and likely to have slag inclusions.Actually it is about worthless for anything except thin metal.6011 makes a way stronger weld.From what Ive seen Lanse is making good 6011 welds without slag inclusion or undercut.Plus he is doing a good job of cleaning the welds.Those 6011 weld will hold way more than a 6013 weld.Even a 6013 weld that looks good,you need to break it some way and compare it to any other rod.Its scary the way it just barely penetrates.Plus you need to know what you are doing to weld with it.Its no rod for a beginner.
Actually you should make a few welds with 6013 and break them.Then weld with any other rod,6011,7014,7024,7018 and any others and break them and look at the weld from the side.All of those rods will penetrate better and have way thicker of a deposit of welded metal than 6013.

I thought some of your previous pictures looked like 7014 rather than 7018 but you said you used 7018. The shiny looking welds in your previous post look more like 7014 than 7018. 7014 is superior to 6013. Don't waste your money on any 6013! 6013's are OK to practice with but once you get good enough to weld something you don't want them, so why buy them in the first place.
I also explained that 6011 doesn't build up as much as other rods and you use a slow back and forth whipping motion when burning them. They are used for deep penetration and dirty or painted steel that can't be cleaned.
7014 are a general purpose higher travel speed rod. 7018 is used when you want the most strength and/or you're not sure what type of steel you're welding. The biggest difference between 7014 and 7018 is that 7014 are for static(just sits there) loading and 7018 are for dynamic(under stress) loading. 6011 is an AC version of 6010 but they are both also for dynamic loading which is why they are popular rods. You're getting too much spatter and I think could be burning a little hot or have too long an arc. 7014 especially, should have very little spatter, 7018 might have a little and 6011 will have the most but not as much as you have. You need to draw some straight lines on the steel to follow and then try overlapping beads to make a smooth even pad. You dont do a bead, then put another bead a little ways apart and a third bead to join them. You overlap the second bead enough that the height stays the same as the first bead with no valley in the middle. In some of you pictures, you appear to have a common problem with other beginning welders. After you strike the arc, you go slow but then speed up as the rod burns down. That's where some soapstone lines would help. Instead of a single line, you could make 2 parallel lines about 3/8" apart that would help you to keep an even width and speed.

Groove and bevel welds are too advanced for Lanse right now. It's like taking the training wheels off before you have any balance at all. 7018 is a poor choice for thin steel.
The core wire used for 6011 and 7018 is exactly the same. 7018 tacks are way stronger than 6011 tacks. You can hot tack with 7018 because of this. No chance of hot tacking with 6011. In shops 6010/6011 is often used for tacking because it is so easy to strike an arc and leaves a nice tack with out a lot of build up which would interfere with the final weld. For high strength tacking, like putting on pressure vessel heads with bridge tacks, 7018 is used. Heads often need tons of force to get them aligned to acceptable standards. You don't want them falling off! I've seen what happens when a head falls off even when tacked with 7018. Mind you it was 2 3/4" thick and weighed over 10 tons!
When you're learning to weld, you don't need a grinder other than to clean your pieces before welding. On welding tests you aren't allowed to touch the finished weld with a grinder or even a file. If you do, you fail immediately. Dave

Destructive testing.

So easy a caveman could do it! :wink:

Not all welding tests are the same.I was allowed to use a grinder.

I disagree about time to make welds instead of practice.He has already made more practice welds than I ever did before welding something.He has some speed problems and by welding 2 pieces I think it might help him figure out what to do to have a more uniform weld.

Also you cant seem to get where the 6011 welds are.The 6011 welds look the way they do because of welding on flat metal,you will recognize them better maybe if he is welding 2 pieces.

What he needs more than anything is to have somebody who is a real welder show him some in person.I think he would get it if he watched a couple of welds by a welder and had the welder to watch his angle and speed for a while and correct him.It would help anyway.I cant see what angle he is holding the rod and he might be off on that.However the welds look good enough,he still has speed problems which are improving.

Also breaking some welds would help.When they had me practice thats what they did.Break the welds and show what they looked like.Tells you more than just welding on flat metal and looking at it,not really much to go on with doing that.

I dont think practicing on flat metal is going to hurt anything at all,but he needs to learn welding right along with it.

I agree he is holding the rod too far out because of the big chunks of spatter.

Hello Lanse,
I don't think anybody answered your quetion about the rods 7014 and 7018.
7014 is a downhand(FLAT WELDING) rod.
While 7018 is for out of position welding.
Both are the same weld strenght.
7014 will give you a much tighter weld bead and it is easier to use as the puddle is easy to see.
Guido.

Hello Lanse,
Some welds appear to be run with too cold of a setting. Here is a way you can set the proper current. Give it a try!
Set the machine high enough to burn the rod easly.
Take the rod and jam it i to the work, if it keeps burning stop. Lower the setting on the welder a bit and try againg. Remember the settings, or write them down. Keep lowering the setting until the rod sticks to the work. Go back to the last setting.
You now have the proper heat set for your rod.
You may need some fine tuning sometimes, but usually it works pretty good.
For overhead welding, later on, you may need to lower that setting.
You may want to invest in a welding handbook. Lincoln has one called: The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding. It was $5.50 when i bought it, lots of info! but i think it may be a bit more now.
Guido.

I answered the question. 60"1"3, 70"1"4, 60"1"1 and 70"1"8 are all desiginated for all position welding. That's what the "1" means. 7024 is similar to 7014 but has more iron powder so is a flat and horizontal rod only, thus the "2" in the number. There is such a thing as 7048 which is a special rod for downhand low hydrogen welding. 7014 is no substitute for 7018. I've said it several times before that tensile strength is only a small factor when choosing rods. 7014 is for static loading and 7018 is for dynamic loading. There is a huge difference between the two. Dave

None of you have given Lance anywhere near the proper procedure for running E 6011 electrode. 6010 and 6011 are deep penetrating-fast freeze electrodes and are made to weld in open butt joints and for poor fit-up ,rusty, dirty or painted metal. The proper procedure for running this rod is to step foreward,gouge out a hole and step back ,pause and let it fill. When a bead is welded this way it will have a ripple effect and will look like a row of dimes laid on top of each other.It is not suppose to look like 6013 or 7018. Every rod has as purpose and there is no such thing as an all purpose rod. If there was, they would only make one.

I said groove and bevel welds are too advanced for him right now. 6011 are usually used with a whipping motion and have wider spaced ripples and a flatter bead than other rods. You don't go slow to let them build up as high as 7014 or 7018. Having a qualified welder would help him a lot. Maybe Puddles could run a couple beads with 6011 and 7018 to show the difference and give Lanse an idea what a good weld should look like? If he tries a fillet weld like in Puddles diagram, it should break in the middle of the weld and not along the edge. Dave

I've mentioned the back and forth whipping motion with wider spaced ripples several times. Maybe my terminology was harder to understand? I do agree with your earlier post that some of the people trying to give advice don't have much more experience than Lanse. I suggested Puddles do some 6011/10 beads and 7018 to show Lanse the difference and what a good weld is supposed to look like. Dave

If I remember I'll do a side by side comparison with 1/8 6011, and 1/8 7018 tomorrow and post the results. Hopefully I still have some 1/8 6011.


I have these saved on the computer now. Well the first picture is 6010, pretty much the same thing. The second is 7018.

Hello 135 fan,
I have used both rods, the Lincoln book i have 1978 vinyage shows that that particular consumable 70 series has a tensile strenght of 72000 lbs. and a yield point of 60000 minimum.
It lists the fallowing rods with the same 2 properties.
E7018
E7015
E7016
E7018
E7024
E7028
Elongation, radiographic and V-Notch impact are not.
Guido.

Probably the same thing, but from a different Lincoln book. :wink:

Excellent job puddles. 6010 looks like the row of dimes I referred to. Wonder how many of the others on here teaching welding have ever taken an ASME boiler and pressure vessel code, procedure qualification test, to qualify the procedure to obtain an R stamp? I have.

Right about breaking the welds.I would need to see how he is welding with 6011 to say much about it.His welds dont look like my 6011 welds.I dont want to confuse him any,but he needs to know about the angle now.About the only way I see of getting that to him is somebody needs to show him.Plus he needs quite a bit of help on the 6011.However he needs to be welding as he goes.Then he needs to practice more,like you say,make a pad,after he gets some fundamental welding stuff.A V groove is a good place to start,there is already a picture of what he needs to make his weld look like posted.
Some of what we are seeing like the spatter might be because of rust.Some of that way 6011 looks is maybe because of just welding on flat metal and he is going too slow,could be set too hot,probably is.Also you can push a 6011 rod instead of dragging it.Same with a 7018,which is the best way anyway.It will take some more practice for that probably.
I disagree about groove and bevel weld or butt welds or t welds he needs to do them right along with all of it.If its too hard I dont want to push him,but he is bright,he can get it, I think.If he does get it then it might be easier to tell him more.

Thanks for the kind words welding man! :wink:

I've never taken an ASME boiler and pressure vessel code, procedure qualification test!
But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express for a few nights.

You're doing quite well.

The 6011... as others have noted are a deep penetrating rod to be used on dirty/rusted/pitted metal that can't be prepped well. Honestly, that's the only thing I ever use them for and not then if I can help it. I find that for multi pass work it's too much bother to chip a 6011 weld. much to the point that I'd rather properly prep and use a 7018.
Other than that I'd suggest you try working in different positions, rod angles, speeds etc and see what works and what doesn't work. One of the best indicators you're going to get of a good strong symetrical weld... is the slag will lift behind you as the weld cools. This is true of 7014 and 7018's in particular. Not so much of others perhaps.
That's something to watch for...

Rod

I never qualified a procedure but had to weld to ASME procedure qualifications for shops with a U stamp. I had several ABSA/ASME pressure tickets. ABSA stands for Alberta Boiler Safety Association and has some of the toughest qualifications in the world. I never worked on pipeline but Alberta is reputed to have the best pipe welders in the world. An Alberta B pressure ticket is recognized internationally as one of the highest standards.
I could discuss welding procedures with any of the qualified welders on this forum and most others without any problems. If I try to correct some misinformation by an unqualified welder, some of them appreciate it but some of them try their hardest to come up with excuses for their lack of knowledge. I don't know everything but I know a little more than just the basics. People seem to get real upset if you ask them what qualifications and tickets they have in order to be giving more advanced welding advice. Hmmm? Someone asks me and I'll tell them. I'm not trying to fake it. Dave

Those are all low hydrogen rods with the exception of 7024. 7018 is listed twice. Like I said, tensile and yield strength is only part of overall weld strength and 7024 is not specifically for dynamic loading. All low hydrogen electrodes have to meet Charpy V-notch minimum requirements of 20 ft./lbs. at from -20 degs. down to under -50 degs. depending on which rods. xx14 don't have this requirement for one thing. Dave

Have read enough posts on here to know who knows what, Dave.I have no problems with your or puddles qualifications. I certainly don't know it all either, but I have been doing it for about 40 years,I did have excellent training and have been privilged to work on some very good jobs over the years,with some very knowlegable people,as I have said before ,I still learn something nearly ever day.

Hello Lanse,
here is a chart that should help you identify weld quality.
Guido

Here you go, I told you it was tough to weld on a flat plate. :lol:
Hobart’s 335A 6011 DCEP 80-amps.

ESAB’s Atom Arc 7018 DCEP 110-amps.

The same way I get mad at 135 fan for bringing in all of that stuff,now here you go.For both of your information there are lots of people that never went to any welding school at all and weld every day.When you start with all of that welding school crap it turns those folks off and then you technical types take over the conversation.While it might be good for you,what good is it for the guy who started this thread?

Here we have a kid who is bright and wants to learn to weld.He doesnt care about your stamps or your apprentice stuff or your welding school,he just wants to weld metal together.

I think everybody would appreciate it,and I know I appreciate Puddles and Guidos posts and others,where they put pictures up and dont try and talk over anybody.There is a word for what you all do,its overbearing.It gets old quick.Pictures speak 1000 words.A cooler attitude would help.Sure you have knowledge and are proud of it,but you arent necessarily the only people who can weld,and there are lots of ways you both probably dont know about.I would suggest that you give advice and quit blowing about school and stuff as if you are superior to everybody else.All that will do is cause problems and make you look like jerks no matter how much knowledge you have.

Now if you were to post a video explaining your stuff it might be different.Until you do that then all of your mouthing about it is just that,some guy on the internet blowing about something that may or may not even make sense,then slapping each other on the back for it.

As far as welding goes there are lots of things about it that you get from doing it,and watching others that did it before.School is good,nothing wrong with it.Where you are going to get problems is when you think that school makes you better.It doesnt.Actually somebody that wants to do something is probably better if they dont go to school.I remember truck drivers who went to truck driving school telling everybody on the CB how its supposed to be done,and how much better than everybody else they were,then 2 inches of snow would hit the Interstate and all of them would quit driving a truck if they didnt wreck first.

Wanting to do it is a big deal.Dont ruin it for others with all of the technical crap that may or may not apply.Work on what you know and dont act like you are better than others.Its real easy to weld nice new metal lying on a table in front of you,I know I didt it for 4 years or more.Its a whole different world trying to fix rusty dirty broken stuff up inside of something all twisted up.Next time I have a job like that Ill look for a schoolboy welder to show me how to do it.Im sure he will put just the right motion of the rod on it and the proper text book look to the weld so he can put a stamp on it!However I might be better off to get Lanse to help me and his weld will probably hold where you all will probably still be blowing about it.

Just like the old guys used to say where I worked at,a Boilermaker welds 3 foot and brags about it the rest of the day,and Iron worker welds A 50 foot long weld and they ask him why he didnt do more.

That has to be the oldest picture of welds beads ever taken. I think it was taken even before arc welding was invented. LoL The crater isn't filled properly in A. Dave

Excellent. You must not have been using an SA200? Lanse should try to get his beads to look like yours. If he could would be something for him to shoot for. You even filled in the crater. What size of rods, 3/32"? If you showed him your 6010 root pass, you'd probably discourage him. LoL Dave