New Forum Software

RTR · Nov 6, 2023

May I ask why you guys are changing over to new software when this has worked for 20 plus years and still seems to work fine? I know most of us here are used to using it and it seems like it will be hard or take away if its drastically changed.

Are the Forums Going Away, or just a different format??

YTSupport · Nov 6, 2023

The forums will be identical (meaning the forum list, users, posts, and threads). The format will be somewhat different, though we will try to make it as similar as possible. We are even taking great efforts to keep the threaded view concept of classic though that concept disappeared completely in the early 2000s. It will have all of the features we currently have, only they will work reliably (which many don't right now). It will also have features people have been asking for for many years, such as Likes, Ignores, personal photo galleries, private messaging and personal profile updates (for example, you can keep your profile information as you want to, showing your tractors and things of interest to you such as your garden, fields, shop etc).

The existing software does not work well. Search does not work. Safemail private contacts works for some and not for others, threads become split and broken, posting with a phone does not correctly translate special characters causing parts of the post to be missing or turn into gibberish. Many features that used to work no longer work in monitoring specific threads. There are others, but I can't think of them at the moment. More importantly, when we upgrade to stay current with security, new things will fail and only a portion will be fixable making it function even worse in the future.

Even what we have not changed over the years slowly degrades because the net and server environment around it changes. You can't leave the same software running for years and have it continue to work. This is identical to having Windows XP on your computer and attempting to keep it secure without changing. It's impossible to secure Windows XP now, meaning you have to change to a newer Windows. When you do, none of the software you use can remain the same as it won't work on the new version of windows you had moved to. It's the nature of the software world.

In the case of our forum software, there is no new version to go to, so we have to change to a modern forum software. Support for our Modern view was dropped in the late 2000s, Support for the classic went away in the late 1990s.

We've worked very hard to keep the old software going. For example, on modern view, I completely replaced all the underlying database code in 2020. It was nothing but a stopgap unfortunately, because of the way computers and networks change, the software running on them has to eventually change.

RTR · Nov 6, 2023

(quoted from post at 14:59:54 11/06/23) The forums will be identical (meaning the forum list, users, posts, and threads). The format will be somewhat different, though we will try to make it as similar as possible. We are even taking great efforts to keep the threaded view concept of classic though that concept disappeared completely in the early 2000s. It will have all of the features we currently have, only they will work reliably (which many don't right now). It will also have features people have been asking for for many years, such as Likes, Ignores, personal photo galleries, private messaging and personal profile updates (for example, you can keep your profile information as you want to, showing your tractors and things of interest to you such as your garden, fields, shop etc).

The existing software does not work well. Search does not work. Safemail private contacts works for some and not for others, threads become split and broken, posting with a phone does not correctly translate special characters causing parts of the post to be missing or turn into gibberish. Many features that used to work no longer work in monitoring specific threads. There are others, but I can't think of them at the moment. More importantly, when we upgrade to stay current with security, new things will fail and only a portion will be fixable making it function even worse in the future.

Even what we have not changed over the years slowly degrades because the net and server environment around it changes. You can't leave the same software running for years and have it continue to work. This is identical to having Windows XP on your computer and attempting to keep it secure without changing. It's impossible to secure Windows XP now, meaning you have to change to a newer Windows. When you do, none of the software you use can remain the same as it won't work on the new version of windows you had moved to. It's the nature of the software world.

In the case of our forum software, there is no new version to go to, so we have to change to a modern forum software. Support for our Modern view was dropped in the late 2000s, Support for the classic went away in the late 1990s.

We've worked very hard to keep the old software going. For example, on modern view, I completely replaced all the underlying database code in 2020. It was nothing but a stopgap unfortunately, because of the way computers and networks change, the software running on them has to eventually change.

Thank you for clarifying. Makes sense to me. Will anything, such as threads, be lost so to speak?

YTSupport · Nov 6, 2023

No, that's what I've been working on for a couple of weeks. Making sure all the threads, posts, and users come over as is. Photos also.

HFJ · Nov 6, 2023

(quoted from post at 18:21:54 11/06/23) No, that's what I've been working on for a couple of weeks. Making sure all the threads, posts, and users come over as is. Photos also.

i've seen the threads about email integrity. can i suggest you pin them? they're already slipping down the busy boards.

YTSupport · Nov 6, 2023

No, the classic view doesn't allow that, or at least, if I did pin them on modern view, the results are undefined what it would do to classic. Might be a dangerous move and clobber the entire forum.

Frankly, the present plan should make the passwords come over in a usable way. I just don't like taking a chance. Especially when we haven't yet started on that part. Worst comes to worst, I'll just have to reset for some people as I do now. That's going to happen anyway because so many people depend on their browser to remember usernames and passwords for them nowadays. It's a problem I run into every day where people contact me for a password reset thinking they have a username other than they do and the email is the only way I can keep from clobbering someone else's password. People also frequently don't remember the email they had at the time they registered so the problem can be even more complex.

DoubleO7 · Nov 7, 2023

(reply to post at 19:03:20 11/06/23)

You probably tried already to.....

Do a mass email to all ???

YTSupport · Nov 7, 2023

No, we can't do that. If we do a mailing, a tiny number of people who have usernames and emails in the database will report us as spammers which then blocks us from sending emails to people who have contacted us.

You have to have a check box on registration that lets people say they opt-in to receiving mailings from us. Way back, we didn't even have a registration, people just posted and that was how their account was created. The only thing they were accepting by putting their email in was that they would receive notifications of posting by email. Thousands of users are in that category.

With the new system, I'm initializing everyone currently in the system as not having accepted the terms to accept emails from us. Then people can go into their profile and check a box if they want to receive emails from us. Then we can email those people about site changes without sending to those who don't. New users will be able to check the box on registration if they want.

WI Dan · Nov 8, 2023

This is big news. I found it because you posted on the other forum. Thanks for doing it.

I think it helps condition the expectations of people, when the information is out there ahead of time.

I really like the unique format, simplicity of this site. But, i understand the changes must happen from time to time. The curse of this technology is often overcome by the knowledge gained and shared among users.

Thank you for your efforts.
Please keep us up-to-date on the changes. It will make the transition smoother!

DoubleO7 · Nov 8, 2023

(reply to post at 16:29:09 11/06/23)

You might have some wiz kid(s) other then your super busy selves create a new forum how-to video.

Your parent company could host it on their youtube channel.

john in la · Nov 19, 2023

I can understand why you are changing to a new software for
security and keeping up with modern times.

I also understand that most users want a modern software
that helps them post links or pictures or even include smiley
faces or like buttons.

I for one know how to write HTML good enough to get by
posting bold print links and make 3rd party images appear in
a post so I really dont need your modern view.

What I really want to know is if the look of classic view is
going away. For me classic helps me follow along with the
discussion much better than modern view allows.

Sometimes modern things are not always better things and
the amount of people that still use classic view should prove
that.

YTSupport · Nov 19, 2023

I'm working on moving all the posts over but when that is done, I'm going to try and write a template that looks like classic. A forum is an organization of Forums->Threads->Posts. This will not change and hopefully the views won't either.

IMO, often modern (not the view) software appearance is driven by phones and the need to leave out information like text, detail and descriptions. Both our "modern" and classic view are textually oriented so the difference is actually the way posts are threaded/sorted. That's the kind of template I'll be trying to make.

Leroy · Dec 1, 2023

Keep those smiley faces or like buttons out. Distraction.

YTSupport · Dec 1, 2023

After I get the classic view threading stuff done, I might be able to look at letting you turn off seeing those types of core features you mention. They will be there though no matter what. Right now, and probably up until we put the new forums in, all my waking hours are occupied by creating the threaded classic view.

Initially, you'll have to ignore the like button, quotes and smilies. Giving you a check box that says you don't want to see them, is possible. But I don't have time to think about that yet.

504 · Dec 1, 2023

I just want to say we do not like change, but we know
it has to come or the whole forum will die. And we
really don't want that! Thanks for all you do to keep
us going.

YTSupport · Dec 1, 2023

Both Kim and I really appreciate the sentiment. The community is important to us.

Change is really hard for sure and often seems senseless even when there are good reasons. Probably because so often there aren't any real good reasons. Frankly, a lot of software change is just to shuffle things around, not necessarily to improve it. Unfortunately, the security aspects only get applied to the latest products so change isn't just to improve features. It's about like buying a truck, a current truck is way safer than my 80s Chevy C30, but you can't buy a truck that doesn't have useless (to me) features like power door locks, power windows and a computer controlled environmental system.

DoubleO7 · Dec 3, 2023

(reply to post at 22:12:57 12/01/23)

The current old forum is like having a Yugo (automobile) as your daily driver.
If anything goes bad you have to cobble it up with junk parts or custom made from scratch parts.
If you want to continue driving it.

YTSupport · Dec 3, 2023

Not a bad analogy, even the modern view has been cobbled together at it's roots 2 or 3 times now.

Good news this weekend is that now I'm starting to be fairly certain the classic style threaded view will work in the new software. Far as I can tell, YT will be the only forum to have this in the world. I looked at the attitudes on the support forums for the major forum software products and for some reason, all the developers have venom for the concept of having a threaded view like classic. It's just really unpopular with forum devs but often asked for by forum installers (only to get blasted). So I'm feeling good that we'll still have both.

I guess that since we are under a month to install now, I can say what software we are using. I didn't want to because no forum package will look/work like YT will if seen as implemented on other sites. We picked xenForo because it allows us to create the classic view, while with a flip of a check button, still being the same as modern with more features. I'll post a graphic of how a threaded forum looks maybe later today. I'm on the verge of full implementation (shocking for me since I was clueless just two weeks ago) and now just one more hurdle to jump and we'll have it.

It is going to look different cosmetically, but I think it will actually be better. Some folks will just have to ignore avatars, quotes, emojis and extra buttons, though as I told Leroy, after it's in, I may be able to make it so seeing the extra stuff can be turned off on per user basis. Making it so the features don't show for someone, will make it a lot like classic.

DoubleO7 · Dec 3, 2023

(reply to post at 13:20:30 12/03/23)

It is likely that the current forum developers are not old enough to have ever seen one in use.
And those that ever worked on one are retired.

Like, lets go to the moon again.
Just use what they did in 1969.
:?

Rich'sToys · Dec 4, 2023

On the current modern view there are sometimes 4 or 5 posts in a row by the same person, because that individual replied to 4 or 5 separate people on classic. Will we still have to endure that, or will there now be a way around that? The "quote" feature seems to be a foreign concept to some people.

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