53 Jubilee new coil question

bfonda

Member
Narrowed down my starting issues to a bad coil. Just got the replacement in the mail.

Small problem. Old coil labeled the posts "Batt" and "Dist".

New one is labeled + and -

With all the positive ground confusion, I don't know how to wire it up.

Help please....
 
Good question, here's my answer, see if others agree???

If its a Positive ground tractor: - terminal is fed voltage from ignition switch, + terminal wires to distributor
(where it gets its Positive ground when points closed)

If its a Negative Ground tractor: + terminal is fed voltage from ignition switch, - terminal wires to distributor
(where it gets its Negative ground when points closed)



John T
 
Bfonda,On a positive ground tractor the + side of the coil goes to the wire that comes from the distributor.
The wire that comes from the switch goes to the= side of the coil.
 
That is an easy one. Look at it this way the distributor grounds the ignition circuit so if your tractor is + ground the + side of the coil goes to the distributor if - ground - to the distributor
 




Thanks for the timely replies. I got it installed last night but it still wont catch.

I have power to both the new coil and distributor but its not getting spark to the spark plug. When I put the charge detector on the distributor, it does not flash when I crank it. This seems to indicate a distributor problem, but when i took the cap off everything looks brand new. The rotor also turns when cranked and the cap is off. New cap?
 
Are your points making contact? At wire from coil to side of distributor you should see battery voltage with points open and near zero volts with points closed.
 

I have an inline spark detector i usually use for the spark plug. I hooked it up between the coil and distibutor and cranked. I got no spark indicator. Doesnt make sense if brand new coil.
 
(quoted from post at 10:39:07 01/10/19)
I have an inline spark detector i usually use for the spark plug. I hooked it up between the coil and distibutor and cranked. I got no spark indicator. Doesnt make sense if brand new coil.

It means you have issues with power getting to the coil OR the points aren't making contact when closed OR there's an "open" or a "short" in the primary circuit between the coil and the points.

Wouldn't be the first time the "paper" insulators at the terminal post got damaged, allowing the post to short to the distributor body, or the little copper strip between the terminal post and the points BROKE, or possibly got bent, causing it to short to the distributor body.

Condensers can short, as well.

Try this... grab an unpowered test light that will light on 6 Volts, ground one lead, and connect the other to the "distributor side" primary terminal on the coil.

Turn on the ignition switch.

If the points are "open", the light should light, if the points are closed, the light should NOT be lit.

If you crank the engine, the light should flash on and off, as the points open and close.

Try that simple test and post back with the results.
 
Check to make sure Power is coming from the key switch. If there is power, Turn the engine so the points are closed with the ignition off. With points closed, turn ignition on and open the points with a screwdriver. The screwdriver should not touch anything else, only the points. You should see a little spark in the points and the big wire coming out of the coil should snap a big long healthy spark when the end of the wire is held close to metal.

No spark when you try this? Then leave the points closed and short the screwdriver blade across the moving arm of the points and the stationary part of the points. If you get spark this way with the points closed the points aren’t making contact. If no spark look very close at the nut on the end of the points spring. Something might be grounding there. In fact, check this area first.

It’s a very simple rudimentary way to check the points out. If you are jumpy about sparks flying around this might not be for you but it’s the very first thing I do when there is no spark coming out of the coil. It’s quick and easy and doesn’t require fancy testers.
 
I run into that problem all the time when working on tractors and 99% of the time the point either need to be cleaned or replaced. Points work like an on off switch for the ignition circuit and if there dirty and do not conduct power the coil cannot fire because you have an open circuit and you cannot see if there good or bad with your eyes you have to be 1000% sure you get a small spark at the points when you open them by hand
 

You make a good point. I don't have a key ignition only a toggle switch. I can't seem to be able to tell the difference whether its on or off, the engine still turns over either way.
 
Here is a simple almost no brains needed test to see if the points etc. are good. Run a hot wire from the ignition side of the battery as in non-ground side to the ignition side of the coil. Touch the wire to the coil then back off again. You should get a small spark when you do that. No spark means bad points or the points are open
 
(quoted from post at 09:38:45 01/10/19)
You make a good point. I don't have a key ignition only a toggle switch. I can't seem to be able to tell the difference whether its on or off, the engine still turns over either way.

Easy.. Get a magic marker and test light. One side of your flip switch is always hot, the other side is only sometimes hot. Mark on and off once you test it.
 
Looks like you need to work through my Ignition Troubleshooting Procedure. Its easy and requires no expensive or fancy test equipment, maybe just your eyes and/or a simple test light or voltmeter


http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=5745

John T
John Ts Ignition Troubleshooting
 
(quoted from post at 08:51:33 01/10/19)
(quoted from post at 10:39:07 01/10/19)
I have an inline spark detector i usually use for the spark plug. I hooked it up between the coil and distibutor and cranked. I got no spark indicator. Doesnt make sense if brand new coil.

It means you have issues with power getting to the coil OR the points aren't making contact when closed OR there's an "open" or a "short" in the primary circuit between the coil and the points.

Wouldn't be the first time the "paper" insulators at the terminal post got damaged, allowing the post to short to the distributor body, or the little copper strip between the terminal post and the points BROKE, or possibly got bent, causing it to short to the distributor body.

Condensers can short, as well.

Try this... grab an unpowered test light that will light on 6 Volts, ground one lead, and connect the other to the "distributor side" primary terminal on the coil.

Turn on the ignition switch.

If the points are "open", the light should light, if the points are closed, the light should NOT be lit.

If you crank the engine, the light should flash on and off, as the points open and close.

Try that simple test and post back with the results.

Bob: with the ignition switch rewired and working i did your test. I now get connection to the distibutor side of the coil. When I turn it over it does not flash but does dim.
 

1.12.2019 Update. Apparently i had an ignition switch issue. Rewired and now get power !!.

I now get power to the coil both going in and coming out. When testing with a volt meter I am getting 6V then 3V when turning over. It never goes to 0, which you might expect for a properly opening and closing point.

Still not getting spark to the plugs.

I think i have a distributor problem. I am concerned its a ground issue maybe the insulator.
 
Check the voltage between the little terminal stud protruding from the distributor and a good, clean chassis ground, ignition switch ON, points CLOSED.

If REALLY 3 Volts, move to the insulated breaker point arm, and take a voltage reading, then at the grounded side of the breaker points (mounted to the breaker plate), referenced to the same good, clean chassis ground.
 
Are you measuring 6 Volts on the terminal stud AND the insulated breaker arm?

How about at the other place I asked you to measure, the grounded point mounted to the breaker plate?
 

To be clear I got the 6V reading from the stud on the outside of the distributor that is wired with a small wire back to the coil.

I am unclear where the insulated breaker point is or where the ground point is.
 
Take off the distributor cap and look at the points.

One is on the "breaker arm" that moves as the cam turns, and has an insulator at it's pivot point..

Measure the voltage on this "breaker arm" both with the points "open" and with them "closed".
 
Is that the reading at the stationary/grounded point, as well, and the breaker mounting plate?
 
(quoted from post at 21:06:09 01/12/19)
yes

If this is TRUE, and you are getting a voltage reading of 6 Volts above chassis ground at the insulated point, the grounded point AND the breaker plate, either the distributor is not grounded through it's mounting to the engine, or the breaker plate is not grounded to the distributor, either would be VERY rare, but possible.

Voltage measurement between the grounded breaker point and a CLEAN spot on the distributor housing?

Voltage measurement between a CLEAN spot on the distributor housing and a CLEAN spot on the chassis/engine block?
 

Ok, I am going to go back through the points you mentioned and retest. Want to make sure i didn't misread. Thanks for the time tonight.
 
bfonda, did you work through my Troubleshooting Procedure ??

If a test lamp or voltmeter on the coils output (to distributor) does not flash ON (points open) and go OFF (or volts near zero) when they are closed, see a portion of my Ignition Troubleshooting Procedure below........(See Para 5)

Typical causes of such may be Points not fully closing,,,,,,,,,,,Points badly burned or pitted,,,,,,,,,,The wire is open from coil to and through distributor side terminal to points terminal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,points or distributor or its plate isn't well grounded...??.. Points aren't actually wired/connected to the distributors side terminal ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,,,,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.

2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test. 3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,,,,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,,,,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,,,,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,,,,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,,,,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,,,,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.


Are the points closing fully????????????? Are they badly burned or pitted??????????? Is the wiring good from coil to distributor side terminal to points terminal inside????????? Are the points wired correctly????

Let us know

John T
John Ts Ignition Troubleshooting
 

Well after replacing the coil, and distributor points, condenser and rotor and rereading and retesting multiple connections after reading and rereading your comments, i think i found the culprit.......a burned out high voltage distibutor cable from the coil.

I cant get any current to flow through the line let alone the high voltage needed.

This has certainly been an education. I spent as much time trying to figure out the names of the parts and test locations as anything else. I appreciate the patience especially Bob of going back and forth for several hours Sat night.

I'll update tomorrow once i get a new cable.
 

John, thanks for this it has definitely part of my testing. Appreciate the thought and effort you put into this checklist.
 
Be sure to get true wire plug type wire or the problem will come back. Plug wires made for cars and truck do not hold up well on tractor and could well be why you had the problem in the first place
 
(quoted from post at 21:47:50 01/14/19) Be sure to get true wire plug type wire or the problem will come back. Plug wires made for cars and truck do not hold up well on tractor and could well be why you had the problem in the first place

Good call. I was heading to Advanced auto, I'll reroute the extra miles to Tractor supply.
 
So your going form one bad store to one that is even worse. Go to NAPA or O'Reilly's and buy a set of TRUE wire plug wires and be done with it and have a good set instead of poor set.
 

Well, I'm back.

Taking Old's advice, I went to Napa and bought a good quality Distributor wire and confirmed connectivity.

I went back and went through the assorted tests suggested above. I have current to both the coil high and low termials. I also have current to the terminal on the distributor. Interestingly when i remove the distributor cap, i no longer get charge to the same terminals above.

Since I have replaced the coil, points, condenser, and rotor I am starting to think I have a bad ground. I am particularly concerned with the distributor post insulation.

I have gone through John T's checklist and since I cant get a flashing connection to the distributor when cranking and have eliminated everything except a bad ground.

Its hard to imagine the distributor not grounding with as much metal to metal contact. It seems more likely to be the insulation on the distributor post but dont kow how to test for this.
 
Pull the distributor cap off. Next use a hot were from the battery ignition side as in non ground. Touch the ignition side of the distributor as in non distributor side key off. You should get a spark when you do that. If you get a spark then turn the engine just enough to open the points. Then do the test with the wire. If you still get a spark you have a short some place In the distributor. It could be the points them self if you got them from say TSC. Or the insulator going into the side of the distributor is shorted out which happens. As to testing a ground to the distributor use the same hot wire and touch the side of the distributor and you should get a big spark in doing so
 
QUESTION 1

"I have gone through John T's checklist and since I cant get a flashing connection to the distributor when cranking and have eliminated everything except a bad ground."

ANSWER

If a test lamp is on the coils output (to distributor) or else the distributors side pass through terminal where that wire is connected and ignition on and engine cranked over


IT MUST FLASH ON WHEN POINTS ARE OPEN BUT OFF WHEN THEY ARE CLOSED


5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,,,,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,,,,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,,,,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,,,,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,,,,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,,,,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor,,,,,,,,,,or the points aren't wired right or getting a good ground.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor


QUESTION 2

Its hard to imagine the distributor not grounding with as much metal to metal contact. It seems more likely to be the insulation on the distributor post but dont kow how to test for this.

ANSWER If the insulation on the distributors side pass thru stud/terminal is bad and its shorted out she wont fire and a test lamp on the distributors stud or the coils to dist terminal will never come on as its shorted out.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?? If not post back

John T
 
(quoted from post at 09:50:25 01/10/19) Here is a simple almost no brains needed test to see if the points etc. are good. Run a hot wire from the ignition side of the battery as in non-ground side to the ignition side of the coil. Touch the wire to the coil then back off again. You should get a small spark when you do that. No spark means bad points or the points are open

Going back through these notes now that i am getting familiar with the parts and terminology.

Did this test and got spark from the battery to the ignition side coil post, when the ignition was off and points closed. and just to be clear when I open the points it does not spark.
 

points are making contact. with points closed i get 6v reading from the ignition side of the coil to the distributor body. Apparently my points are good
 

Bob-

Going back and doing this test, it works according to you expectations. "on" when open, "off" when closed, and now the distributor side terminal does flash on and off when cranking.

I feel like i am making progress
 

Points closed, ignition on, getting 6V at the breaker arm, nothing at the plate that is screwed into the dist. plate.
 

update

Closed points i get nothing on both clean ground and point ground. When points are open I get 6V at both locations.
 

Ok repeated this test and i got the results you expected, spark when closed, no spark when open. So the conclusion is that i have no shorts in my distributor.
 

Hot damn!!!! I got spark to the plugs and it fired up for a brief second, enough to kick out some exhaust in my closed garage. Its 130 am. I'll start it up good in the AM.

Honestly cant put my finger on one thing. it was probably several.

Stay tuned!!!!
 
(quoted from post at 23:34:12 01/18/19)
Hot damn!!!! I got spark to the plugs and it fired up for a brief second, enough to kick out some exhaust in my closed garage. Its 130 am. I'll start it up good in the AM.

Honestly cant put my finger on one thing. it was probably several.

Stay tuned!!!!

Hooked up the newly cleaned out gas tank without leaks. After playing with the throttle and choke it fired up and ran!!!! Drove it around in first and second gear and reverse. Didnt seem to be running hot. i need a new oil and temp gauge and speeedometer. Apparently i have a stuck clutch, which does not seem uncommon. The PTO and hydraulics seem to be working. Next I need to change the engine and transmission/hydraulic fluid fix a hole in the muffler and find an air filter

Thank you all for the patience as I figured out the terms and location of the parts you referenced. In the end I had to wiat til everyone was in bed and really focus on your instructions, which was the key. Great forum!!
 

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