Policing a farm stock class

I posted , (tried to anyway), earlier about policing farm stock tractors using a dyno to keep them close in hp.

Are there problems doing this and if so what are those problems and how do some try to get around them ?

Darrel
 
Biggest problem is that unless you have a dyno set up to give instant horsepower readings, it is easy to cheat. With most of the dynos that we have access to, the dial is calibrated for 540 rpm. The guy running the dyno at the pull gets lazy and just checks power at 540 because that is what is in his book for most tractors.

Governors have varying amounts of droop. As an example I checked a MH 44D last week. To get max power at 540, high idle had to be above 600. So if you set the throttle at 570 rpm, the governor would not go to full fuel until lugged to 510. So at 540 rpm it would show about 38 hp, at 510 it would be around 42, while with the throttle full open, it would run 44 hp at 540.

It takes someone with a good knowledge of all tractor brands to be able to find max horsepower without a digital readout. It also takes time at the pull. Even if you only check top 1-3, you have guys waiting to the end of the class to see how they placed when they should be tossing weights for the next class.

In my opinion, % rpm limits, no cut tires and a track with some give to it keep things fair. Everybody loves to pull on a power track, but the guy with less power stands a chance on a loose track. Speed limits don?t make much difference unless you have guys running over 10 mph.
 
Have been doing dyno rules here for 30? years. Make the rules, enforce the rules. There are some who aren't happy, but there plenty of places for those too.
 
Ive seen hotter tractors start to pull away around 8 mph. A 6 mph or so speed limit would help. I know a guy who got busted up going double digit speeds so its a safety measure too.
 
What about power blocks, super kits and the like? Most antique tractors have been overhauled at least once seldom using original low power parts. If upgrades are available, most people will use them. What do you do then. Disqualifying a tractor with 10 or 20 hp more than the early original but using upgrades designed and specified for that make and model? Use speed limits. Same speed and weight keeps it equal. Big horsepower is a bigger disadvantage than advantage in lower speed classes
 


By farm stock I assume that you are referring to more modern bigger tractors, which is what farm stock means here. I wouldn't want to get into dynoing them. I agree with moresmoke, RPM limits, no cut tires, and soft track if possible. You should also specify single turbos and original appearing blocks and pumps. I don't agree with speed limits though because if you have true farm stock it is good to let them run.
 
Our county fair had hp limits years ago. Easy to cheat a dyno. Mph classes level the playing field. If you don't believe it, go to a pull with a mph and distance board. Record the speeds past the last speed cone. See if I'm not right.
 
I'm just getting around to reading all the replies here, and although I'm replying to moresmokes post, Showcrops comment is exactly the tractors that I'm wanting to dyno.
1960' models up to pre-'84, before all, well, "almost" all the buyouts and mergers took place. Not anything older than a 1960 model.
I'm thinking I'll need a dyno that will handle tractors from about 80 hp up to around 300 hp , and maybe bigger in the future, but that's down the road.

Now to Showcrops comments, I am looking at a dyno with a digital readout, but not sure of what manufacturer I want to go with yet.
I know I'll be dealing with some gas tractors going back to the '60's and understand the issue with governors and I agree with a % over stock rpm limit and no cut tires.
AS for a speed limit, I want to "let them run", as I believe Showcrop put it, because I'm wanting to police them as best as poss. and hold them to stock or a % of hp over stock, to take into account for overhauls and newer oem or replacement parts that may increase the hp, and that's fine.
Anything else to watch for as far as cheating is concerned in regards to testing on a dyno ? I'm looking at larger, (and newer), tractors , not models from the "40's and "50's and am thinking I want to test them with 1000 rpm pto's......any problems doing that ?

Any other problems to keep in mind or to watch for as far as cheating among competitors ?
 
I see Showcrop and moresmoke have no e-mails in their posts.
Is there a way to contact you guys and discuss a few things off this board ?

Thanks
 
From the experience I have sitting on the sled, same tractor, same track, back to back hooks on occasion, the only thing changed was the speed limit and they made maybe 12 inches more in a 12 mph class than 5 mph. And this would be a well built tractor that competes well across the upper Midwest.

Note: I am not talking about a drop pan sled. That is a whole nother ball game.
 
As long as you can ?map? the horsepower from the dyno it will work. I have an older M&W dyno that I put sensors on and can hook it to a laptop so it will give me a live horsepower readout. Then you can easily find the max.

Where I have run in the past that had dyno rules, it was 20% on horsepower and 10% on rpm. Some manufacturers would put out +15% from the factory.

Biggest issue then becomes help to run the dyno and time during the pull.

Email is open.
 
Sounds like a good way to guarantee a small turnout. Why would you want to go through the hassle of checking that size of tractors. Let em pull or as we say around here "run what you brung". There's usually enough going on with weigh ins and getting lined up without having to hook to a dyno yet. If you want to police a pull, have somebody that actually cares check the weights and hitch height at the scale. You see more cheating going on there than on the track. I personally would not attend a pull if they want to dyno the tractors.
 
no way a 12 mph tractor is going only 12 inches more than at 5mph,unless very under powered,not all info given,so of little value
 
What more info would you like? Tractor I have seen this with more than once is a stout puller. I was running the sled, so I know nothing changed there.
 
It matters most if all things were equal in a "perfect world",- well believe it or not it ain't perfect,-- good luck in policing much,no one wants to be the bad guy,not many want to tech much,honor system sucks nowadays.Higher horsepower tractors still dominate in a slow mph class,most of the time,always some different results,we have a local fair pull where the rpms are checked after you pull,with slow speed limits too,works well,however some can cheat this style of tech also.A dyno is of little use as stated below,many tractors will be over,where do you set the limit?No two of the same style,model or any will be the same hp.Fuel used,timing,condition of engine all will vary hp numbers,while still being near to "stock".
 
makes no sense,faster tractor,longer pull if tractor has the needed power. Many pullers think they can go faster,however,history and real facts saw different.,AGAIN,-- NO WAY GOING FROM 5 TO NEAR 12 MPH IS ONLY GOING TO GAIN 12 INCHES.
 
YOU MISINFORMED PEOPLE DON'T GET IT,THE TRACTORS WITH MORE POWER,RPMS AND KNOWLEDGE WILL STILL DOMINATE,ALWAYS HAVE,ALWAYS WILL,-- SURE ONCE IN A WHILE AN UNDER POWERED UNIT HAS A
HAYDAY,SURE THE LESS POWERFUL HAVE AN advantga with traction sometimes,BUT MOST OF THE TIME THROTTLE AND HP WILL OUTPULL LESSER.Many factors are invloved,not just a few limiting
rules.I am not saying that it doesn't help some,but overall,with many venues considered,it is a small equalizer.
 
The only thing increased speed changes is momentum. This is why drop pan sleds are used by the pros. The faster it goes while the sled is easy to pull, the more energy available when the pan drops. So the whole outfit takes longer to skid to a stop. At the slower speeds, there just isn?t enough increase in momentum to make the difference.

If you watch LLSS, pro stocks etc, it is not very often you see a pull where the tractor can keep going after the pan drops. They have the horsepower, but not the traction.
 
MORESMOKE-- read your own posts,makes no sense,-- you stated that no drop pan was used with you running sled,now you talk trash about huge speed,horsepower and compare dog crap to apple pie,- what is up with that,- again no way 12 mph will only go 12 inches more than at 5 mph with a capable tractor. NO WAY,HAVE PULLED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY IN MANY DIFFERENT VENUES WITH MANY DIFFERENT UNITS AND HAVE NEVER SEEN WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT,NEVER.anything is possible,- but not very probable.Foks with less power always want to think,hope and believe that the rules will even out the results, not absolutely true in real life.
 
at the end of the day,we all do this for fun,friendship,appying our knowledge,going places,seeing new people,making friends and pulling,-- whatever we choose to use,--Enjoy,have fun,do as good as you can with the rules presented,have fun,travel safe and go again.
 
BuickAndDeere 5353M are correct. Hitch height (16-18?) and MPH (3 to 3 1/2) will level the field. Any HP above maintaining speed and spinning out at the end is not used. And a 12mph tractor will scar a 5mph tractor by 10feet every single time. It?s a weighted drag race. Physics. Law of motion.
 
I found that the mph pulls are much more fair. We pull a non cut tire 3.5 and cut tire 6.5 and I am always within a foot or two and beating the strokers even pulling in the 6.5 when my tractor can only go 3.5 in the heavier classes.
 

Speed limits didn't come to northern New England until around 10 years ago. I was a strong proponent of speed limits, because there were an increasing number of guys who were able to pull the sled the length of the track in a higher gear due to the momentum, as has been said here again and again. Forcing the guys with more powerful tractors to pull in the same gear as the guys with closer to stock tractors leveled the playing field to a degree, and pulling became again more of a game of traction rather than momentum. HOWEVER, power is still a huge factor, because as long as the higher powered tractor can get traction, the driver can still APPLY HIS POWER. As the weight comes onto the pan it takes more and more traction to keep it moving, BUT, it also takes more and more power, every foot takes a little more traction and also a little more power. Again and again, as long as there is traction the higher powered tractor will win. However, next week, on a soft track, guess what? WE HAVE A DIFFERENT SET OF WINNERS. Don't get me wrong, the guys with the power still need to do everything else correctly in order to maintain their traction. For ten years we have had one pull which has been very popular for various reasons, and draws pullers from greater distances than most others. The track there is very soft. At this pull it is abundantly clear what a difference the track surface makes as the less powerful tractors can steal the win away from guys that travel great distances and win at most pulls. I am not advocating ripping the clay up and putting dirt down, because we know that soft tracks are a pain to maintain, and the hills become as much of a deciding factor as driver skill. Just understand buddy, that many people really do know why you can pull so much better when you are on a hard track.
 
3.5 mph you guys ought to look at some of the gearing lot of tractors out there like my high crop I like to pull is 3.9 mph in 1st gear
 
Another pulling season gone by here in the Northeast. Our 70 took 1st in half the pulls we attended finally figured out why it could have been a lot better. In our case it was the hitch on the 70 it was 26" out from axle centerline. The way the tractor was weighted and with the new 18.4 tires the front end headed for the sky about 60 feet out ever time. When that happens it puts the hitch 8" off the ground. It was quite a project to get it moved in to the 18" rules distance. Now the front will be a lot harder to rotate skyward.

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(quoted from post at 04:29:55 10/31/19) Another pulling season gone by here in the Northeast. Our 70 took 1st in half the pulls we attended finally figured out why it could have been a lot better. In our case it was the hitch on the 70 it was 26" out from axle centerline. The way the tractor was weighted and with the new 18.4 tires the front end headed for the sky about 60 feet out ever time. When that happens it puts the hitch 8" off the ground. It was quite a project to get it moved in to the 18" rules distance. Now the front will be a lot harder to rotate skyward.

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mdross, Congratulations on your winning season! The principle that you reference is sound and is correct probably 90% of the time. Most pullers will tell you that the hook point is to ALWAYS be at the minimum distance from the axle center. HOWEVER, many pullers want to be at a higher point than 90%, so for those conditions that make it advantageous to get more draft from the sled, they move their adjustable drawbar out a few inches. You may want to consider making it adjustable before next season. Where in the Northeast do you pull? Have you ever been to the New England Championships?
 
There was a club locally that would put the top 3 in each class on a dyno to check HP. That practice was dropped due to the hassle and arguments that resulted during the dyno checks. There are a couple of things to consider;

1) All of the results I have seen show HP at either 540 or 1000 PTO speed, therefore it is a single point check.

2) What is going to be the pass / fail criteria? Based on OEM published ratings or on a HP for the class being pulled?

3) It has been documented that Oliver tractors and others routinely exceeded the published HP ratings.

4) How are you going to certify that the dyno you are using is accurate from day to day?

5) I have heard that competitors would use different size orifices on the air to the engine to control air flow and therefore HP in order to meet the class requirements, this makes the engine basically a constant torque machine across all RPMs.

Good Luck with your attempts to even the playing field.

Rich
 
Mdross, you might want to check the rules where you pull, many clubs do not allow adjusters to be above the center-line of the rear axle. Also the sled hook has to have clear and free access to the hitch, that might be an issue.

Rich
 
(quoted from post at 05:02:38 10/31/19) Mdross, you might want to check the rules where you pull, many clubs do not allow adjusters to be above the center-line of the rear axle. Also the sled hook has to have clear and free access to the hitch, that might be an issue.

Rich

Good catch Rich. I agree, our rules call, I think, for a 3.5 inch opening with clear access. I doubt that the guy hooking would be able to get the hook through that hole no matter how he tried. The tractor would go back on the trailer.
 
The turnbuckles were always on the stock upper link supports that are also above the axle center line so I guess our club does not have that rule. For that matter our rule book says nothing about this. Either way I'm starting with this setup next season. This did get me to rethink this setup, Thank You for pointing it out. Yet one more way to help keep the frontend down is lower that turnbuckle connection, at the least yet another tuning device.
 
Regarding your comments......

(1) - I'm planning on using the 1000 shaft to tech because I'm wanting to have a class for larger tractors , (60ish to over 200 hp stock), and some, (a lot), of those tractors from the '60's to '84 time period will only have a 1000 shaft.

(2 & 3) - OEM published ratings, I know, are sometimes well under the actual ratings off the assembly line , so there will be a % allowed over, (probably a large % over).

(4) - Looking into that and discussing that with a dyno company.

(5) - It's not something that can be changed during the pulling attempt so......

Darrel
 
One last thought, are you going to have protection in your rules to prevent someone from stripping down a large tractor and pulling in a unreasonable weight class? Or taking a light tractor (IH 706 example) put a 1066 label on it and run a 1066 power plant?

I know this is knit picky, but it is the kind of thing that arises when trying to enforce HP rules.

Good luck

Rich
 
Good reason to visit these forums is hearing what others have to say. I did find a pair of 9" body top links so I could put the stock top link brackets back on the 70. Examining it more made me realize this will help keep the frontend closer to Mother earth.
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I?m rebuilding a M&W 350 Dyno as a winter project. I intend to install pressure and rpm sensors, calculate hp, display the results graphically (with wireless data logging). What?s your setup?
 
John,
What are you planning on using for your setup? I used an Arduino UNO
I did something similar on my A&W 375.
Digital display of RPM, TQ, and horse power on the fly with peaks displayed for both with the rpm they occurred and a SD card data logger if I want to record the results.
 

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