Pint Hierarchy

paintron

Member
Paint has a hierarchy of grades based on the resin system it is based on. See as follows:
1. Fluorocarbon (PVDF)
2. Urethane
3. Silicone polyester
4. Polyester
5. Acrylics
6. Alkyds
Epoxies are left out as they tend to chalk badly on exposure to UV and for the purpose of this discussion are mainly used as primers. Paints companies will blend these to get intermediate grades. Keep in mind blending could be just straight blending or chemically cross-linking.
The main advantage to Alkyds are that they will air dry at room temperature, the others require 2K or elevated temperatures.
 
(quoted from post at 08:14:13 03/13/19) Paint has a hierarchy of grades based on the resin system it is based on. See as follows:
1. Fluorocarbon (PVDF)
2. Urethane
3. Silicone polyester
4. Polyester
5. Acrylics
6. Alkyds
Epoxies are left out as they tend to chalk badly on exposure to UV and for the purpose of this discussion are mainly used as primers. Paints companies will blend these to get intermediate grades. Keep in mind blending could be just straight blending or chemically cross-linking.
The main advantage to Alkyds are that they will air dry at room temperature, the others require 2K or elevated temperatures.

Please be more clear on acrylic enamel vs acrylic urethane.
 
Acrylic enamel doesn't mean much sort of a generic term. Acrylic are known for being brittle and enamel basically is a generic term meaning hard paint. Urethane are
expensive very flexible have very good adhesion and really good weathering properties. An acrylic urethane is a co-polymer where the formulator is trying to get the best
of both worlds.

The coating's industry in the last few years has been moving away from acrylics and into polyesters. My first exposure to the coating industry was a company painting
coils for aluminum siding. It was all acrylics, now it is all polyesters.
 

"Acrylic Enamel" does not seem to be an overly generic term like you are saying. Could it be different in our respective regions?

Fairly consistently, auto paint lines have a Synthetic Enamel, Acrylic Enamel, and then an Acrylic Urethane or just Urethane. Although, I do catch a "Acrylic Urethane Enamel" from time to time...So there does seem to be some level of the terms being slang vs technical jargon.
 
Enameling is a term that describes putting a coating of glass on metal, example bathtubs. For paint years ago it became a marketing term to imply the paint was hard.

Us techies (Paint Technologist) don't use this, too generic through the general population still use it .
 

What I'm getting at though is that it is not just the general public using it but pretty much all automotive paint manufacturers. They are using it for something specific.
 
I have worked in automotive assembly plants as an on site technical rep. I think this term may be more used more in aftermarket shops. More of a marketing term that is not vertical descriptive of the actual coating.

I'm currently employed of on a coil coating line and which uses all the coating's described. We use very specific terms to get our customers what they need for the end use. On any given day a paint company rep .will be in my lab and they don't bs me with marketing terms.
 
(quoted from post at 16:26:30 03/13/19) I have worked in automotive assembly plants as an on site technical rep. I think this term may be more used more in aftermarket shops. More of a marketing term that is not vertical descriptive of the actual coating.

I'm currently employed of on a coil coating line and which uses all the coating's described. We use very specific terms to get our customers what they need for the end use. On any given day a paint company rep .will be in my lab and they don't bs me with marketing terms.

It could be a marketing term but seems to at least always mean "not synthetic and not urethane but between them in quality."

How familiar are you with the brands and lines available to us hobbyist consumers?
 
(quoted from post at 09:14:13 03/13/19) Paint has a hierarchy of grades based on the resin system it is based on. See as follows:
1. Fluorocarbon (PVDF)
2. Urethane
3. Silicone polyester
4. Polyester
5. Acrylics
6. Alkyds
Epoxies are left out as they tend to chalk badly on exposure to UV and for the purpose of this discussion are mainly used as primers. Paints companies will blend these to get intermediate grades. Keep in mind blending could be just straight blending or chemically cross-linking.
The main advantage to Alkyds are that they will air dry at room temperature, the others require 2K or elevated temperatures.

Where do Polysiloxane coatings fall in this?
 
(quoted from post at 08:13:44 03/29/19)
(quoted from post at 09:14:13 03/13/19) Paint has a hierarchy of grades based on the resin system it is based on. See as follows:
1. Fluorocarbon (PVDF)
2. Urethane
3. Silicone polyester
4. Polyester
5. Acrylics
6. Alkyds
Epoxies are left out as they tend to chalk badly on exposure to UV and for the purpose of this discussion are mainly used as primers. Paints companies will blend these to get intermediate grades. Keep in mind blending could be just straight blending or chemically cross-linking.
The main advantage to Alkyds are that they will air dry at room temperature, the others require 2K or elevated temperatures.

Where do Polysiloxane coatings fall in this?

I think this thread was supposed to be about beer, wasn't it?
 
(quoted from post at 16:29:48 03/29/19)
:lol:

that being the case, I disagree with the OP.

1. Free
2. Cold

Importance in that order. ;)

I've thought about this for a few days now, and I've got to say: I think you got those backward!
 
Polysiloxane is a high temperature and flexible plastic not used for painting. A silicone polyester
would be used instead.
 
(quoted from post at 13:14:18 04/05/19) Polysiloxane is a high temperature and flexible plastic not used for painting. A silicone polyester
would be used instead.

I'm afraid that's incorrect.

http://www.polysiloxanecoating.com

https://www.ppgpmc.com/Infrastructure/Infrastructure-Featured-Products/Signposts/PSX-700.aspx

its for sale for $250 per kit online.

http://store.southernpaintandsupply.com/psx700-high-performance-engineered-siloxane-gallon-kit/

It's being marketed at the best thing since sliced bread for industrial and marine coating. I've had some painting pros recommend I try it on my payloader.
 
though to be fair it appears the "resin system" you reference is either epoxy or acrylic. But its hybrid nature is a bit more complex than your hierarchy.
 
(quoted from post at 21:07:39 04/07/19) though to be fair it appears the "resin system" you reference is either epoxy or acrylic. But its hybrid nature is a bit more complex than your hierarchy.

I didn't honestly find the original post super useful. It had a bunch of stuff that most of us will never see or be offered at a paint store...

PAINT:
Alkyd/synthetic < acrylic/lacquer < urethane < polyurethane

Something to note is that as the better it is, the more dangerous it is. Basically this list ranges from Rustoleum to Imron.

PRIMER:
This is more complicated because you have so many different use cases, but generally-

etch - Good for bare metal, old school, still used in body shops due to fast drying, rarely labeled to be topcoated so it needs some sort of seal coat over it before paint. Contains some level of acid.

epoxy - Best for bare metal, best sealer over urethane before topcoat, best sealer over etch before topcoat, some not compatible with acid containing products (treatments, etch primers). Very durable stuff and super adhesion on a proper surface.

urethane - Good for filling scratches/body work, not suitable for bare metal (although some are labeled as "DTM" this is rarely intended for a large surface), also good for sealer before top coat when thinned down, works over epoxy, etch, polyester.

polyester - Best for for filling scratches/body work especially when needing more fill. never top coat without sealing, often not compatible with etch primers. basically it is runny body filler

lacquer just stay away from anything that says lacquer for paint and primer. Doesn't really matter -- old 1K tech, likes to crack with age.

'enamel' primer (these are your 1k, non-build, bare metal primers) good for bare metal and a base for cheaper projects. not as durable as epoxy.

bare metal: enamel < etch < epoxy primers but etch comes with the caveat of needing another coat before topcoating

surfacers: toss up between urethane /polyester depending on what is needed. but polyester again comes with caveats of needing another coat before topcoating and is harder to sand/deal with

sealers: enamel/1k's < urethane < epoxy

There is no such thing as 1K epoxy.

Etch primers often contain chromates which are bad news for your health.

Polyester primers can be a pain to mix and work with, but are fantastic for filling.

As you can see epoxy primer and urethane primers are your most versatile and easier to work with in their respective uses. Unless you have some serious voids to fill, I wouldn't bother with polyester.

For some reason this forum has a real love affair now with metal treatments. I'm not sure why. You do not need a metal treatment for adhesion (it can work against you in fact) and 9/10 times you don't really even need it to get rid of existing rust. It has its place, but as far as being part of "standard practice" you are likely just wasting time and money with it.
 
(quoted from post at 13:21:19 04/08/19)
(quoted from post at 21:07:39 04/07/19) though to be fair it appears the "resin system" you reference is either epoxy or acrylic. But its hybrid nature is a bit more complex than your hierarchy.

I didn't honestly find the original post super useful. It had a bunch of stuff that most of us will never see or be offered at a paint store...

PAINT:
Alkyd/synthetic < acrylic/lacquer < urethane < polyurethane

Something to note is that as the better it is, the more dangerous it is. Basically this list ranges from Rustoleum to Imron.

PRIMER:
This is more complicated because you have so many different use cases, but generally-

etch - Good for bare metal, old school, still used in body shops due to fast drying, rarely labeled to be topcoated so it needs some sort of seal coat over it before paint. Contains some level of acid.

epoxy - Best for bare metal, best sealer over urethane before topcoat, best sealer over etch before topcoat, some not compatible with acid containing products (treatments, etch primers). Very durable stuff and super adhesion on a proper surface.

urethane - Good for filling scratches/body work, not suitable for bare metal (although some are labeled as "DTM" this is rarely intended for a large surface), also good for sealer before top coat when thinned down, works over epoxy, etch, polyester.

polyester - Best for for filling scratches/body work especially when needing more fill. never top coat without sealing, often not compatible with etch primers. basically it is runny body filler

lacquer just stay away from anything that says lacquer for paint and primer. Doesn't really matter -- old 1K tech, likes to crack with age.

'enamel' primer (these are your 1k, non-build, bare metal primers) good for bare metal and a base for cheaper projects. not as durable as epoxy.

bare metal: enamel < etch < epoxy primers but etch comes with the caveat of needing another coat before topcoating

surfacers: toss up between urethane /polyester depending on what is needed. but polyester again comes with caveats of needing another coat before topcoating and is harder to sand/deal with

sealers: enamel/1k's < urethane < epoxy

There is no such thing as 1K epoxy.

Etch primers often contain chromates which are bad news for your health.

Polyester primers can be a pain to mix and work with, but are fantastic for filling.

As you can see epoxy primer and urethane primers are your most versatile and easier to work with in their respective uses. Unless you have some serious voids to fill, I wouldn't bother with polyester.

For some reason this forum has a real love affair now with metal treatments. I'm not sure why. You do not need a metal treatment for adhesion (it can work against you in fact) and 9/10 times you don't really even need it to get rid of existing rust. It has its place, but as far as being part of "standard practice" you are likely just wasting time and money with it.

I agree with what you've written, with one caveat that I've seen that 'Urethane' and 'Polyurethane' are often used interchangeably and this makes the separating line murky.

We also go down the path of "best" without specifying WHAT is the priority characteristic that makes the "best". If COST is priority, then both yours and Paintron's list isn't correct. If Durability is top, its different than "Color Retention in UV" etc etc etc. I know you know all this...

Another important part if paint is the complete "System" and its compatibility. Mix and match is ok sometimes, other times disastrous as you point out above regarding some epoxies not dealing with acid treatments well. This past summer I supervised the painting of a ship's deck where we sprayed an aluminum-rich mastic epoxy over the existing coating and some of it wrinkled up and failed in a matter of minutes. We found those sections had been "touched-up" with cheap 1K paints and our epoxy was not at all compatible with it.

My point with the Polysiloxanes is that outside of the marine industry I haven't heard much about it... but the marketing sounds good for ag/heavy equipment use. I will be trying it on a JD 644a payloader in the near future and I'll be sure to report back how it worked out.
 

10-4 on the polyester being difficult to work with!! but it is nice to be able to apply a uniform all over coat of filler.
 
(quoted from post at 21:02:41 04/08/19)

I agree with what you've written, with one caveat that I've seen that 'Urethane' and 'Polyurethane' are often used interchangeably and this makes the separating line murky.

We also go down the path of "best" without specifying WHAT is the priority characteristic that makes the "best". If COST is priority, then both yours and Paintron's list isn't correct. If Durability is top, its different than "Color Retention in UV" etc etc etc. I know you know all this...

Another important part if paint is the complete "System" and its compatibility. Mix and match is ok sometimes, other times disastrous as you point out above regarding some epoxies not dealing with acid treatments well. This past summer I supervised the painting of a ship's deck where we sprayed an aluminum-rich mastic epoxy over the existing coating and some of it wrinkled up and failed in a matter of minutes. We found those sections had been "touched-up" with cheap 1K paints and our epoxy was not at all compatible with it.

My point with the Polysiloxanes is that outside of the marine industry I haven't heard much about it... but the marketing sounds good for ag/heavy equipment use. I will be trying it on a JD 644a payloader in the near future and I'll be sure to report back how it worked out.

Agreed!

The one thing about the cost issue though is that it is a false economy in most cases. Sure if you have some steel medicine cabinet that will live in the house, climate controlled, there is probably no point to use Imron over any of your hardware store alkyds. Once it hits the sun though -- the false economy kicks in.

"But I can get 10 gallons of Rustoleum per 1 gallon of Imron and just respray i every year!" LOL - If that's what someone enjoys doing with their time then they can have at it!! I love and enjoy restoration work but I HATE restoration RE-work.
 
(quoted from post at 07:56:40 04/09/19)
10-4 on the polyester being difficult to work with!! but it is nice to be able to apply a uniform all over coat of filler.

Yes it is. Once you know how to handle it, it is great. I find it better than urethane surfacers in every aspect except for working with it. It fills better, doesn't shrink...but it sands like a bear, mixing it can be a pain with those little tubes (why don't they develop a thinner acivator that you can actually measure more than like 1 tsp??), and once it starts to go off say goodbye to your gun!!
 
I think you got me on the polysiloxane coating, should have said not normally used as architectural coating’s. We do have one product stove pipe that uses this type of coating. Mainly a maintenance coating, it’s been a while since I covered this stuff in school, and I think it is not used architecturally as in does not tolerate pigment very well. Used it once for mufflers it they can withstand high temperatures, 800° F.
Epoxy is not used as topcoat as it chalks very badly so mainly used for primer as it has amazing adhesive properties. Acrylics main weakness is its brittleness, used to use this a lot for siding when I first started. Coil products are meant to be post formed so most of the industry shifted over to polyester a much more versatile system.
If you are producing any type of plastic you start with what is called a monomer. Join a few monomers together and you get an intermediary product called a resin. Combine many of these and you have a plastic.
I listed the most common resins and their generic names used in architectural coatings the list could be longer. As with Lego you can mix, cross polymerize but the list would no longer be useful.
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top