Using Epoxy Primer & 2K Primer - Please Help

RTR

Well-known Member
Ok. So my last thread about cleaning bare metal and painting has led me to this topic. I've read where alot of you use Epoxy Primer and that primer type has a re-coat time of around 24 hours or so with about 2 hours being the soonest you can apply your color topcoat paint. I've read where you say not to wait any longer than their recommended time, OR you have to sand down and re-prime.

NOW.....I've been watching videos on YouTube about Epoxy primers and how to use them. Of course these videos are based on using them on automobiles and body panels. They all say they use epoxy primer as a "protector" primer after the vehicle has been cleaned to bare metal so they can take their time to work on the body work, etc. THIS MEANS THEY LET THE CAR SIT FOR A FEW MONTHS WITH EPOXY PRIMER ON IT.......??? Then they do body work, use fillers, then they sand/scuff the epoxy primer down a little, then use a 2K Primer (usually 2-3 coats) to fill and be the sandable primer to get a nice smooth clean surface to put the top color coat on. WHAT??? This goes against what you guys told me and what the label on the can says.

You guys have been painting the tractor and sheetmetal with epoxy primer, then putting the top color coats on that within the re-coat window. Which way is right???
 
(quoted from post at 13:03:51 03/05/19) Ok. So my last thread about cleaning bare metal and painting has led me to this topic. I've read where alot of you use Epoxy Primer and that primer type has a re-coat time of around 24 hours or so with about 2 hours being the soonest you can apply your color topcoat paint. I've read where you say not to wait any longer than their recommended time, OR you have to sand down and re-prime.

NOW.....I've been watching videos on YouTube about Epoxy primers and how to use them. Of course these videos are based on using them on automobiles and body panels. They all say they use epoxy primer as a "protector" primer after the vehicle has been cleaned to bare metal so they can take their time to work on the body work, etc. THIS MEANS THEY LET THE CAR SIT FOR A FEW MONTHS WITH EPOXY PRIMER ON IT.......??? Then they do body work, use fillers, then they sand/scuff the epoxy primer down a little, then use a 2K Primer (usually 2-3 coats) to fill and be the sandable primer to get a nice smooth clean surface to put the top color coat on. WHAT??? This goes against what you guys told me and what the label on the can says.

You guys have been painting the tractor and sheetmetal with epoxy primer, then putting the top color coats on that within the re-coat window. Which way is right???

I'm guessing that on these videos they aren't actually SHOWING you one of 2 things:
1. The 2K primer is going on within the recoat window
2. The epoxy primer is getting scuffed once outside that window (in fact it looks like you said above that they are sanding it before putting on 2K...so what's the actual question?)

And possibly:
3. The epoxy primer is outside the recoat window where the next coat is applied but ONLY in places that aren't "critical" i.e. some parts like say the inside of a trunk or other places you don't see probably won't see any weather, etc. so we really don't care so much about adhesion.

You do not NEED to reapply another coat of epoxy after that initial coat is outside the window and rescuffed. You can scuff and enamel right over the top of it. However it is advisable to make sure you have no bare metal showing and in my opinoin just doing a seal coat at this point is pretty easy to take care of any concern and make sure everything is sealed off nice.

In any case, scuffing and rescuffing cast iron and all the fun to reach places on a tractor is actually not all that fun, so just doing things in batches within recoat windows is the best solution.

Enduro prime actually has a longer recoat window that 24 hours:
"After sufficient flash, ENDURO PRIME may be topcoated for approximately five (5) days with no sanding required. After approximately five days, epoxy should be scuff sanded before topcoat application."

However keep in mind that epoxy cures according to how hot it is. If it is 100 degrees that window will be on the short end. If it is 60-70 degrees, 5 days is fine.
 
(quoted from post at 00:06:04 03/06/19)

Yes they said they would Epoxy Prime to seal the metal from rusting while it sat in shop for them to do body work, etc. THen they said to scuff it before adding a 2K primer.

My questions and concerns are that they NEVER mentioned a re-coat window time as they acted like it is a sealer primer to use when the piece will be sitting for a month or more, and not a primer to top coat color over. It confuses me because you guys use it as a primer then top coat over that......making sure to get the topcoat on in the re-coat window time.
 
(quoted from post at 15:40:33 03/05/19)
(quoted from post at 00:06:04 03/06/19)

Yes they said they would Epoxy Prime to seal the metal from rusting while it sat in shop for them to do body work, etc. THen they said to scuff it before adding a 2K primer.

My questions and concerns are that they NEVER mentioned a re-coat window time as they acted like it is a sealer primer to use when the piece will be sitting for a month or more, and not a primer to top coat color over. It confuses me because you guys use it as a primer then top coat over that......making sure to get the topcoat on in the re-coat window time.

The scuffing takes care of the issue of being outside the recoat window. Epoxy primers can be used over bare metal AND can be used directly under a topcoat...which makes them perfect for this type of project.

Etch primers, for instance, usually cannot be topcoated per their tech sheets...you would have to etch then seal with another product. Epoxy takes care of both..you can use it over and under essentially anything.

Coating within recoat windows allows chemical adhesion...the layers "melt" into each other. Coating outside the recoat with scuffing gives you mechanical adhesion...the new layer grips the scuffs in the old layer. There is nothing wrong with either, just whatever works out for that stage of the process for you.

Here is the TDS for Kirker's epoxy I have been recommending. Give it a few read-throughs: https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pdf/ENDURO_PRIME_techData.pdf
 

Ok that makes sense. You say epoxy can be used over or under anything. Does that mean that I can shoot epoxy over the primed cub cadet chassis I've painted with rattle can Rustoleum Primer? Forgive me if I've already asked this, but I'm now beginning to absorb all of this "new" info.
 
(quoted from post at 15:55:42 03/05/19)
Ok that makes sense. You say epoxy can be used over or under anything. Does that mean that I can shoot epoxy over the primed cub cadet chassis I've painted with rattle can Rustoleum Primer? Forgive me if I've already asked this, but I'm now beginning to absorb all of this "new" info.

Yes, you can do that. Here again though, you are looking at scuffing that old surface for the new one to adhere, and I am of the opinion that pretty much any epoxy will give superior adhesion to rustoleum on a properly prepared surface. By the time you "scuff" the rustoleum it will be halfway removed...it is up to you whether you want that layer to remain in there or if it is worth the little extra time to (mostly) remove it. Likely it will be fine, rustoleum primer is used by a lot of people and I don't see issues with it flying off under a pressure washer.
 
(quoted from post at 16:03:36 03/05/19)
(quoted from post at 15:55:42 03/05/19)
Ok that makes sense. You say epoxy can be used over or under anything. Does that mean that I can shoot epoxy over the primed cub cadet chassis I've painted with rattle can Rustoleum Primer? Forgive me if I've already asked this, but I'm now beginning to absorb all of this "new" info.

Yes, you can do that. Here again though, you are looking at scuffing that old surface for the new one to adhere, and I am of the opinion that pretty much any epoxy will give superior adhesion to rustoleum on a properly prepared surface. By the time you "scuff" the rustoleum it will be halfway removed...it is up to you whether you want that layer to remain in there or if it is worth the little extra time to (mostly) remove it. Likely it will be fine, rustoleum primer is used by a lot of people and I don't see issues with it flying off under a pressure washer.

By "superior adhesion to rustoleum" I meant "compared to rustoleum" not literally the adhesion of the epoxy to the rustoleum... I tried to edit my last post but got an error.
 
and scuffing the surface (whether scuffing the rustoleum, scuffing "cured" epoxy primer, or scuffing bare metal after an acid wash) is just taking a Scotch Brite pad and basically scrubbing the whole thing down ?? I know I'm slow, but I think I've got this.
 
(quoted from post at 16:16:55 03/05/19) and scuffing the surface (whether scuffing the rustoleum, scuffing "cured" epoxy primer, or scuffing bare metal after an acid wash) is just taking a Scotch Brite pad and basically scrubbing the whole thing down ?? I know I'm slow, but I think I've got this.

Yep, you got it. The maroon 3M pads are your friend. You can use sand paper as well but the pads seem to last much longer and also just work better, esp on cast.

I'm getting a little hung up when you say acid "wash." I can't stress enough that you can't just spray those products on and wash off without some elbow grease and wiping going on to help them out.
 
I'm getting a little hung up when you say acid "wash." I can't stress enough that you can't just spray those products on and wash off without some elbow grease and wiping going on to help them out.

Great! Ok, yeah I understand that you have to do that and will continue to watch videos about how to acid clean metal to remove surface rust while keeping everything safe too. I know once it has been "washed" with acid and rinsed clean, you need to scuff to remove the film it can leave.
 
(quoted from post at 17:03:56 03/05/19)
I'm getting a little hung up when you say acid "wash." I can't stress enough that you can't just spray those products on and wash off without some elbow grease and wiping going on to help them out.

Great! Ok, yeah I understand that you have to do that and will continue to watch videos about how to acid clean metal to remove surface rust while keeping everything safe too. I know once it has been "washed" with acid and rinsed clean, you need to scuff to remove the film it can leave.

You may not even be advised to rinse the product off. You wipe dry what you can and scuff the remaining layer once dry.
 
(quoted from post at 03:23:30 03/06/19]
You may not even be advised to rinse the product off. You wipe dry what you can and scuff the remaining layer once dry.

I am talking about after using the acid to remove the surface rust. I would think I would need to wash the residue from scrubbing and removing the rust.....right??
 
(quoted from post at 17:25:16 03/05/19)
(quoted from post at 03:23:30 03/06/19]
You may not even be advised to rinse the product off. You wipe dry what you can and scuff the remaining layer once dry.

I am talking about after using the acid to remove the surface rust. I would think I would need to wash the residue from scrubbing and removing the rust.....right??

You wipe the majority of it with the clean towels. Picklex is used this way heavily in another forum I frequent...no water. To me if you truly "wash" the material all back off while it is wet you are again left with untreated metal. That defeats the purpose of "etching."

I see in the other thread that he is using SEM rust converter and rinsing. You'll find some variance product to product and that there are a couple ways to do things.
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:16 03/05/19)
(quoted from post at 03:23:30 03/06/19]
You may not even be advised to rinse the product off. You wipe dry what you can and scuff the remaining layer once dry.

I am talking about after using the acid to remove the surface rust. I would think I would need to wash the residue from scrubbing and removing the rust.....right??

RTR as I posted earlier you need to read some product instructions. You can download instructions for virtually everything. Different products vary in small but important ways in the correct way to use them. You are at the point where you need to get off the Youtube videos and Read some product instructions.
 
Maybe I can shed some on this for you. I made a living in auto body/paint/restore for 34 yrs. What they are instructing you to do is apply the epoxy over everything bare and then after usually 24 hrs, you can start in with fixing the dents etc with polyester fillers. You do NOT need to scuff for this stage. It lets you do the body work without anything flash rusting in the mean time. Once the body work is done, then you scuff and/or use DA with 220 and go over everything. NOW, you have a mechanical bond gain and can apply the 2K primer/surfacer. Then after cure time, you are ready for finish sanding/block sanding of the surfacer to get it all perfect. NOW, you can either apply another coat of epoxy or just paint over the surfacer. I prefer to epoxy again simply because you are bound to have a few sand throughs to metal and this will just give better , more uniform base for paint. BE IT KNOWN THO....do not put your final epoxy on until you are ready to paint within the epoxy re-coat window. You do not want to have to scuff it. Chemical bonds are superior to mechanical. When "paint day" comes...epoxy and then wait about an hour or even two and then paint. Depends on the temp. At 80 an hour is enough. Here is another little trick I always did. Use black epoxy. Reason being, when it's wet, it's like black paint and will show you every minute defect that needs repaired. Wile still wet so you can see everything...take a little punch or scratch awl and outline where it will need filler. If you don't do it now you will never find the very minute spots and the epoxy will flash off dull and your lost again. Some spots are so shallow , you will never feel them with your hand later. Once you think you are ready for paint and put on the sealer coat of black epoxy, you will see if you missed anything because it will look like you just painted it gloss black. Fix it now, unless you are painting white or bright yellow and maybe it won't show when done. Your call. As far as the question..will my paint cover black primer??? Well if it doesn't ...it needs more until it does. That ole wives tale about using the color of primer closest to your paint color so it doesn't take as much....just proves you aren't putting enough on to begin with. And if your paint is that transparent...it's probably bargain junk to begin with. Ya gits whats ya pay for with paint.
 
Seems to me you are giving instructions we novices can understand so will ask another question: For a tractor I just want to protect but not interested in the best paint job-working tractor- or don't want to spend more than the old girl is worth would the use of rattle can paint ever be acceptable. I won't say advised but will it suffice for the basic protection?
 
(quoted from post at 04:17:17 03/06/19) Seems to me you are giving instructions we novices can understand so will ask another question: For a tractor I just want to protect but not interested in the best paint job-working tractor- or don't want to spend more than the old girl is worth would the use of rattle can paint ever be acceptable. I won't say advised but will it suffice for the basic protection?

Opinions will vary on this and there is ALWAYS someone that shows up posting a picture of their own that has been done with rattle cans. Keep in mind that houses and machines always look better in pictures than in person.

My opinion is that NO it is not ever acceptable for anything but touchup like say painting some new small part that you needed to replace. Rattle can paint is so thin that you do not get the protection you want without applying numerous coats and by then you have spent as much money. Spend according to what your time is worth not what the tractor is worth.
 
(quoted from post at 00:18:42 03/06/19) Maybe I can shed some on this for you. I made a living in auto body/paint/restore for 34 yrs. What they are instructing you to do is apply the epoxy over everything bare and then after usually 24 hrs, you can start in with fixing the dents etc with polyester fillers. You do NOT need to scuff for this stage. It lets you do the body work without anything flash rusting in the mean time. Once the body work is done, then you scuff and/or use DA with 220 and go over everything. NOW, you have a mechanical bond gain and can apply the 2K primer/surfacer. Then after cure time, you are ready for finish sanding/block sanding of the surfacer to get it all perfect. NOW, you can either apply another coat of epoxy or just paint over the surfacer. I prefer to epoxy again simply because you are bound to have a few sand throughs to metal and this will just give better , more uniform base for paint. BE IT KNOWN THO....do not put your final epoxy on until you are ready to paint within the epoxy re-coat window. You do not want to have to scuff it. Chemical bonds are superior to mechanical. When "paint day" comes...epoxy and then wait about an hour or even two and then paint. Depends on the temp. At 80 an hour is enough. Here is another little trick I always did. Use black epoxy. Reason being, when it's wet, it's like black paint and will show you every minute defect that needs repaired. Wile still wet so you can see everything...take a little punch or scratch awl and outline where it will need filler. If you don't do it now you will never find the very minute spots and the epoxy will flash off dull and your lost again. Some spots are so shallow , you will never feel them with your hand later. Once you think you are ready for paint and put on the sealer coat of black epoxy, you will see if you missed anything because it will look like you just painted it gloss black. Fix it now, unless you are painting white or bright yellow and maybe it won't show when done. Your call. As far as the question..will my paint cover black primer??? Well if it doesn't ...it needs more until it does. That ole wives tale about using the color of primer closest to your paint color so it doesn't take as much....just proves you aren't putting enough on to begin with. And if your paint is that transparent...it's probably bargain junk to begin with. Ya gits whats ya pay for with paint.

This is solid and re-summarizes a lot that has been stated. I do not necessarily agree about the part regarding chemical vs mechanical bond. Epoxy is a mechanical bond to metal for that first stage regardless of what comes next and anything applied to surfacer is a mechanical bond.
 
(quoted from post at 02:17:17 03/06/19) Seems to me you are giving instructions we novices can understand so will ask another question: For a tractor I just want to protect but not interested in the best paint job-working tractor- or don't want to spend more than the old girl is worth would the use of rattle can paint ever be acceptable. I won't say advised but will it suffice for the basic protection?

Jim I will add that the the pics of the beautiful rattle can jobs are right after it was done. Usually guys want their ride to look decent for 10 -20 years. You don't get longevity out of cheap paint. Don't put cheap paint over a 50 hour prep job and don't put expensive paint over a five hour prep job. Here is a pic I took last year of my friends H fifteen years after being restored by the local FFA
mvphoto32453.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 05:41:52 03/06/19)
(quoted from post at 17:25:16 03/05/19)
(quoted from post at 03:23:30 03/06/19]
You may not even be advised to rinse the product off. You wipe dry what you can and scuff the remaining layer once dry.

I am talking about after using the acid to remove the surface rust. I would think I would need to wash the residue from scrubbing and removing the rust.....right??

You wipe the majority of it with the clean towels. Picklex is used this way heavily in another forum I frequent...no water. To me if you truly "wash" the material all back off while it is wet you are again left with untreated metal. That defeats the purpose of "etching."

I see in the other thread that he is using SEM rust converter and rinsing. You'll find some variance product to product and that there are a couple ways to do things.

Now I have another question about this process......what about like on a tractor where there are many nooks and crannys and what might have gotten sanded down and has flash rusted might not get treated and scuffed. See what I'm saying? It isn't like on a body of a vehicle where it is obvious and easy to get to.

IS THERE ANY WORRY OR CONCERN WITH THIS?
 
(quoted from post at 09:21:58 03/06/19)
(quoted from post at 05:41:52 03/06/19)
(quoted from post at 17:25:16 03/05/19)
(quoted from post at 03:23:30 03/06/19]
You may not even be advised to rinse the product off. You wipe dry what you can and scuff the remaining layer once dry.

I am talking about after using the acid to remove the surface rust. I would think I would need to wash the residue from scrubbing and removing the rust.....right??

You wipe the majority of it with the clean towels. Picklex is used this way heavily in another forum I frequent...no water. To me if you truly "wash" the material all back off while it is wet you are again left with untreated metal. That defeats the purpose of "etching."

I see in the other thread that he is using SEM rust converter and rinsing. You'll find some variance product to product and that there are a couple ways to do things.

Now I have another question about this process......what about like on a tractor where there are many nooks and crannys and what might have gotten sanded down and has flash rusted might not get treated and scuffed. See what I'm saying? It isn't like on a body of a vehicle where it is obvious and easy to get to.

IS THERE ANY WORRY OR CONCERN WITH THIS?

You're right, and this is why cars are so easy...so long as you enjoy messing around with interiors and wiring :).

Do the best you can. If you were able to access them the first time, you should be able to now as well just as easily.

Tractors are tricky beasts...you can't spray paint on the back side of a lot of parts while they are installed. If you take them off to paint, then you will have to deal with scratching up bolt heads after putting them back on. You'll just have to do what works the best and is most feasible. The sheetmetal can usually be done PERFECT but the carcass, well, it's a fight the whole way.
 
Ok..........next question (haha, please be patient with me guys)

I see where you all recommend just shooting epoxy primer and then top coat color over that (body work and fillers after primer if needed). I've also seen where people use 2K primers after they shot the epoxy primer. Please explain WHEN 2K primer should be used and WHY it should be used.

Also, should it be used on the tractor cast metal chassis, on the sheetmetal, or both?
 
(quoted from post at 10:22:15 03/06/19) Ok..........next question (haha, please be patient with me guys)

I see where you all recommend just shooting epoxy primer and then top coat color over that (body work and fillers after primer if needed). I've also seen where people use 2K primers after they shot the epoxy primer. Please explain WHEN 2K primer should be used and WHY it should be used.

Also, should it be used on the tractor cast metal chassis, on the sheetmetal, or both?

2K really means "2 component" where the "k" is used I believe becuase of it being translated from some European language "komponent" or something like that. The epoxy primer and any other catalyzed primers are 2K.

What you are really asking about is the SURFACER or FILLER-primers. These are used to fill pits and sand scratches and also to hide where you have used body filler. It is really only appropriate to use on surfaces that are supposed to be smooth and you use it to get them to look perfectly straight. If you do not use this intermediate step between body filler and top coating, the filler will look like little pools in the gloss of the topcoat. The surfacer bridges the gap where the filler is feathered down.

When you use surfacer of any kind, you need to be EXTRA mindful about where your overspray is landing. It dries very fast and you can get a lot of dry spray on the back side of what you are spraying and on surrounding pieces. Anything that it CAN land on while you are spraying what you WANT it to land on needs to be masked off to prevent a lot of extra work.

There are a few kinds of surfacers:

polyester
urethane (what most people tend to refer to as "2k")
lacquer

Polyester: the hardest to sand, most fill, least likely to shrink, most likely to bleed through (sealer REQUIRED to prevent this), most likely to go off in your spray gun and ruin it. It is good stuff, but you probably want to "grow" into trying it, IMO.

Urethane: very easy to sand, very good filling but can shrink. To avoid shrinking issues, you should wait 24 hours before sanding and give it time to cure out. Don't try to rush any step. This one doesn't need sealer and is more forgiving as far as going off in the spray gun, but you still need to keep the gun very clean and clean well after using.

Lacquer: just do us all a favor and avoid anything that says the word 'lacquer' on it. Way old tech, horrible adhesion, so many better products out there that is is pointless. Others will disagree because it works for them and is cheap. Avoid, avoid, avoid.
 
2K really means "2 component" . The epoxy primer and any other catalyzed primers are 2K.

What you are really asking about is the SURFACER or FILLER-primers.

There are a few kinds of surfacers:
polyester
urethane (what most people tend to refer to as "2k")
lacquer

A little bit confused now. So the 2K Primer is an Epoxy Primer, but is also a Surfacer/Filler Primer???
 
(quoted from post at 10:47:16 03/06/19)
2K really means "2 component" . The epoxy primer and any other catalyzed primers are 2K.

What you are really asking about is the SURFACER or FILLER-primers.

There are a few kinds of surfacers:
polyester
urethane (what most people tend to refer to as "2k")
lacquer

A little bit confused now. So the 2K Primer is an Epoxy Primer, but is also a Surfacer/Filler Primer???

The term "2K" doesn't dictate what type of product something is beyond the fact that it is "2 components."

1K primers don't have any catalyst in them. There are sealers, surfacers, etch primers, etc. in this class of primers.

2K primers do have catalyst in them. Again there are sealers, surfacers, etch primers, etc. within this class of primers.

If you ask the question "what is a good 2K primer?" it would not give enough information to yield any good advice. It does not tell us if you are 1. trying to cover bare metal (epoxies, etch primers, enamel primers), 2. build a thick film to sand away imperfections (surfacers of various types) or 3. do a seal coat before paint (epoxies, enamel primers, some surfacers thinned down).

I need to make a chart!
 
(quoted from post at 20:54:57 03/06/19)

The term "2K" doesn't dictate what type of product something is beyond the fact that it is "2 components."

1K primers don't have any catalyst in them. There are sealers, surfacers, etch primers, etc. in this class of primers.

2K primers do have catalyst in them. Again there are sealers, surfacers, etch primers, etc. within this class of primers.

If you ask the question "what is a good 2K primer?" it would not give enough information to yield any good advice. It does not tell us if you are 1. trying to cover bare metal (epoxies, etch primers, enamel primers), 2. build a thick film to sand away imperfections (surfacers of various types) or 3. do a seal coat before paint (epoxies, enamel primers, some surfacers thinned down).

Thank you! That makes sense.

Can you tell me what I have here? I was at my favorite auto parts store and picked both of these up in the "clearance bin" because they said they stopped carrying that brand. I knew it was a better primer than using Rustoleum like I have been using and figured I'd give it a shot. I think I paid about $60 for both the primer and the catalyst.


mvphoto32476.jpg


mvphoto32477.jpg


mvphoto32478.jpg


mvphoto32479.jpg
 
That's 2k urethane surfacer (which it says all over the can, btw).

That's pretty cheap, and I've never seen that brand. There are all kinds of fly-by-night manufacturers and re-branders for this stuff. The only difference I've really seen in surfacer is how smooth it goes on and therefore how mcuh sanding to make it slick again. You should be fine using this so long as it is going over something else suitable for bare metal. If you aren't doing body work anywhere or have any rust pits to fill up, you don't really have much use for it.

Most all urethane surfacers like this one are also labeled to be used as a sealer under a top coat, which simply requires them to be thinned more (usually double what they recommend + more to make them act nice in my experience). I've never had any luck using them like this because of how much dry spray they produce and I will recommend against it, especially on a tractor where there is a strong propensity for oversprays.
 
(quoted from post at 22:14:53 03/06/19) That's 2k urethane surfacer.

Ok....so I could essentially use this on the sheet metal where I would be doing body work. Strip/Clean metal, Epoxy Prime, body work and fillers, 2K Urethane Surfacer, Top Coat with Color. Correct??

Question 1: Since you say its a Urethane Surfacer, would I have to use a Urethane Enamel paint or would Acrylic Enamel like I typically use work in that case?

Question 2: Is this product safe to use on an older fiberglass car body? If so, how long of a shelf life does it have because I'm not sure when I'd get to it.
 
(quoted from post at 14:09:00 03/06/19)
(quoted from post at 22:14:53 03/06/19) That's 2k urethane surfacer.

Ok....so I could essentially use this on the sheet metal where I would be doing body work. Strip/Clean metal, Epoxy Prime, body work and fillers, 2K Urethane Surfacer, Top Coat with Color. Correct??

Question 1: Since you say its a Urethane Surfacer, would I have to use a Urethane Enamel paint or would Acrylic Enamel like I typically use work in that case?

Question 2: Is this product safe to use on an older fiberglass car body? If so, how long of a shelf life does it have because I'm not sure when I'd get to it.

Yes, that is the correct process you outlined.

You do not have to use urethane paint over urethane primers, enamel will be fine. This will lead you more into the debate of the longevity and durability of urethane vs enamel. If you are going to all this work, do you want to save $100 by using enamel instead of urethane?

Most surfacers will call out fiberglass specifically in the TDS and you just apply them directly to sanded fiberglass. Usually they are labelled for it -- check your TDS for the product you actually have.
 

This is all such great information, and I am grateful for it!! THANK YOU! I might use that 2K surfacer for sheetmetal only. I know I do have that fiberglass kit car to do, I sanded the old paint and primer on half of it with a DA sander 4 years ago and its been sitting outside since. Sorry.....not trying to start a new topic.

Yes I have used Urethane Enamel paint and it yeilded a nicer finish (even with my lesser prep work than we have been talking about) but I have alot of the Ironguard Enamel paint to use. Alot are working tractors, so it should be just fine ; but for a few select ones I'll probably use the Urethane Enamel.

One more question. I wanted to clarify on how to sand after the 2K primer surfacer is applied (either my product I have or any other type).
 
(quoted from post at 15:13:54 03/06/19)
This is all such great information, and I am grateful for it!! THANK YOU! I might use that 2K surfacer for sheetmetal only. I know I do have that fiberglass kit car to do, I sanded the old paint and primer on half of it with a DA sander 4 years ago and its been sitting outside since. Sorry.....not trying to start a new topic.

Yes I have used Urethane Enamel paint and it yeilded a nicer finish (even with my lesser prep work than we have been talking about) but I have alot of the Ironguard Enamel paint to use. Alot are working tractors, so it should be just fine ; but for a few select ones I'll probably use the Urethane Enamel.

One more question. I wanted to clarify on how to sand after the 2K primer surfacer is applied (either my product I have or any other type).

Sanding the surfacer is IMO one of the higher skilled and most important parts of a good restoration and only practice will make you understand it completely. You can watch videos to get an idea. I like to apply the 2-3 coats as per the label, block sand w/ 180, then 240, then prime back any bare places and DA sand with 320/400 and possibly higher if the top coat needs it (you should not need to go higher than 400 for a solid color, but pearls metallics can go wonky).

This is a very generic guideline because the condition of your specific piece will dictate your starting grit, and how much you sand off with each grit will dictate when and how much you need to put on. Heck, every time I outline the process it comes out slightly differently just because there is nothing "set in stone."

You may find it necessary to start at 120 and by the time you have it "level" you may already need another coat. Any time you add another coat, you want to 1. make sure you have epoxy on any spots you sanded back to metal and 2. give it that 24 hours to dry down.

The smoother your bondo is before surfacer the better. Don't just spray surfacer over the 36/40 grit scratches in the bondo...get it up to at LEAST 80 with a DA and preferably more like 180. Same with adding a coat of surfacer to sanded surfacer -- In fact now that I'm thinking about it, I'd recommend surfacer only being applied to 180 scratches and no rougher. The rougher the scratch is that you are trying to fill, the higher your chances get of it shrinking back into those scratches. Does that make sense?

Before you ask about "blocking" or "block sanding"... you seem to be willing to spend on the correct tools. The longest block that you can manage on a given panel is the one you want to use. I love the Dura-blocks and you can get a pretty large set of them for a decent price and have multiple lengths.

Some guys like to use a guide coat...I haven't much use for it because my vision is still good enough to get by without it (or was last time I blocked a project). Basically guide coat helps you see low/high spots.

You do NOT use a sanding block for bondo. For that you want what is called a file board. These are much more rigid. I don't normally see any need to keep file board paper around outside the standard 36 grit.

You might find that you have a low spot that is more than the surfacer can take care of, but the bondo is too hard in comparison to the now surrounding surfacer...so you just keep ending up with a low spot at the edge of the bondo. For this situation you want "finishing putty" and make sure you get the kind that has hardener. Basically it's an easier sanding bondo that is made for smaller imperfections and sands easier.

Auto part stores that carry sanding gear have notoriously high prices (like 2x). Unless you are best buds with someone there and really want to support "local" business, I'd avoid them. Paint stores are certainly better but you might find it easier to order from somewhere online (i like autobodytoolmart and autobodystore) if they are a bit of a drive.

I could keep going on but I'm afraid too much will just pile on confusion. Just plan on having to redo a couple pieces to get the hang of it. You'll find that once you start doing body work, 90% of what you sprayed/spread on the car ends up back on the floor as dust and swept up.

Couple safety tips: Any time you sweep up paint/primer/bondo dust, put it in a steel bucket and keep water over it. That stuff can start smoldering and then you'll be without a shop. Also, keep a real cartridge respirator on while sanding, not those crappy dust masks. Don't be one of these guys that says "that dust doesn't bother me!" Protect yourself.

What are you using for lung protection while spraying paint, btw?
 
What are you using for lung protection while spraying paint, btw?

I am using a 3M cartridge mask with the charcoal filters. I keep it in a zip lock bag and change the filters once a year. Usually paint 2-3 tractors a year.

I’ll read through the rest of the post and reply back once I’ve let it soak in. :D
 
Sanding the surfacer is IMO one of the higher skilled and most important parts of a good restoration and only practice will make you understand it completely. You can watch videos to get an idea. I like to apply the 2-3 coats as per the label, block sand w/ 180, then 240, then prime back any bare places and DA sand with 320/400 and possibly higher if the top coat needs it (you should not need to go higher than 400 for a solid color, but pearls metallics can go wonky).

Ok, so you mean by block sand to not use a sanding block here? I have the type that you put the paper on, or do I need a sponge type sanding block?

You may find it necessary to start at 120 and by the time you have it "level" you may already need another coat.

Another coat of epoxy primer (because of bare metal) or another coat of the bondo, or another coat of the surfacer primer?

Any time you add another coat, you want to 1. make sure you have epoxy on any spots you sanded back to metal and 2. give it that 24 hours to dry down.

How do you add more epoxy to spots that were sanded down to bare metal now that you've done body filler and sprayed primer surfacer on??

The smoother your bondo is before surfacer the better. Don't just spray surfacer over the 36/40 grit scratches in the bondo...get it up to at LEAST 80 with a DA and preferably more like 180. Same with adding a coat of surfacer to sanded surfacer -- In fact now that I'm thinking about it, I'd recommend surfacer only being applied to 180 scratches and no rougher. The rougher the scratch is that you are trying to fill, the higher your chances get of it shrinking back into those scratches. Does that make sense?

Ok.....I understand what you're doing here but I'm a little confused as to what products you're using and how you're doing it. I must have missed something when you mention using 36/40 grit paper. Do I use a D.A. sander to sand the surfacer (with bondo underneath) or do I use a sanding block, or do I use a file board??

I have learned that you try to sand using a cross hatch pattern (45 degree). Also, I haven't seen "wet sanding" mentioned. Is that what is being done here? Maybe I shouldn't have opened that can of worms............haha.
 
(quoted from post at 17:42:43 03/06/19)
Sanding the surfacer is IMO one of the higher skilled and most important parts of a good restoration and only practice will make you understand it completely. You can watch videos to get an idea. I like to apply the 2-3 coats as per the label, block sand w/ 180, then 240, then prime back any bare places and DA sand with 320/400 and possibly higher if the top coat needs it (you should not need to go higher than 400 for a solid color, but pearls metallics can go wonky).

Ok, so you mean by block sand to not use a sanding block here? I have the type that you put the paper on, or do I need a sponge type sanding block?

You may find it necessary to start at 120 and by the time you have it "level" you may already need another coat.

Another coat of epoxy primer (because of bare metal) or another coat of the bondo, or another coat of the surfacer primer?

Any time you add another coat, you want to 1. make sure you have epoxy on any spots you sanded back to metal and 2. give it that 24 hours to dry down.

How do you add more epoxy to spots that were sanded down to bare metal now that you've done body filler and sprayed primer surfacer on??

The smoother your bondo is before surfacer the better. Don't just spray surfacer over the 36/40 grit scratches in the bondo...get it up to at LEAST 80 with a DA and preferably more like 180. Same with adding a coat of surfacer to sanded surfacer -- In fact now that I'm thinking about it, I'd recommend surfacer only being applied to 180 scratches and no rougher. The rougher the scratch is that you are trying to fill, the higher your chances get of it shrinking back into those scratches. Does that make sense?

Ok.....I understand what you're doing here but I'm a little confused as to what products you're using and how you're doing it. I must have missed something when you mention using 36/40 grit paper. Do I use a D.A. sander to sand the surfacer (with bondo underneath) or do I use a sanding block, or do I use a file board??

I have learned that you try to sand using a cross hatch pattern (45 degree). Also, I haven't seen "wet sanding" mentioned. Is that what is being done here? Maybe I shouldn't have opened that can of worms............haha.

By block sanding I do mean to use sanding blocks. The run of the mill rubber one with the flaps isn't gray for this type of work though. The durablock ones are more flexible than that but are by no means "soft" or "sponge" types...flexible enough for contours without gouging.

By "another coat" I meant surfacer. The heavier grit will remove more material if you decide to use it.

The mention of more epoxy after sanding was in case you sand THROUGH to metal while sanding surfacer. Ideally you readdress these areas with something suitable for bare metal again ie epoxy. It is nice to use a different color epoxy and surfacer so that you know when you are about to go through.

You use the file board on bondo with really rough grit to shape it (36). You might skim another coat into the sand scratches and then "finish" the bondo with finer paper (80 or even 180) to help your surfacer not need to do so much work.

Then you apply surfacer, and block with 180, then block with 240. Take care of any extra coats of epoxy and surfacer needed and then you can get the da out to smooth to 320 and up. The bondo and surfacer basically get worked with progressively less aggressive paper and softer pads until both shape and slickness are achieved.

I think I got all your bullet points taken care of. It might be easier to have a phone call at some point if you want.
 
Epoxy primer isn't very sandable so if you are needing to level the surface a sandable primer should be used over the top of the epoxy. You just need to put the 2k primer over the epoxy within the recoat window. Then you could take your time and work on it as you please. If you are going to do substantial amount of body filling and sanding it would be better to do it over the epoxy and once you think you have the body work done put a second coat of epoxy before using the 2k primer. It's because sanding bondo you can't keep from taking it down to bare metal in spots and you want every square inch of the metal to have epoxy on it.
 
(quoted from post at 22:11:56 03/06/19) Epoxy primer isn't very sandable so if you are needing to level the surface a sandable primer should be used over the top of the epoxy. You just need to put the 2k primer over the epoxy within the recoat window. Then you could take your time and work on it as you please. If you are going to do substantial amount of body filling and sanding it would be better to do it over the epoxy and once you think you have the body work done put a second coat of epoxy before using the 2k primer. It's because sanding bondo you can't keep from taking it down to bare metal in spots and you want every square inch of the metal to have epoxy on it.

Nobody intended to say that you would sand epoxy. Using the term 2k the way you are is perpetuating confusion. Epoxy is itself a 2k product as are many other types of primers and paints. Saying "2k" does not imply a primer intended for sanding.
 
I can elaborate on the wet sanding if you want to e-mail me. E-mail is open. Wet sanding is the best way to get a perfect surface in the least amount of arm strokes and the least amount of dust and wasted sandpaper. By wet sanding I'm talking about the primer surfacer only.
 
(quoted from post at 00:17:10 03/07/19) I can elaborate on the wet sanding if you want to e-mail me. E-mail is open. Wet sanding is the best way to get a perfect surface in the least amount of arm strokes and the least amount of dust and wasted sandpaper. By wet sanding I'm talking about the primer surfacer only.

Do you find wet sanding useful at grits below 400 ish? I've found it to be not worth the hassle until you are getting up there or up to the 500 range. Of course, if you are used to it then it isn't going to feel like a "hassle" to you I suppose...
 
This is all so helpful and thank you to everyone. With the expierence of painting tractors over the past 10 years and learning as I go; it is all starting to fall into place and make sense. Now all I have to do is get some hands-on expierence if this weather will warm up!! Sounds like I also need to buy a bunch of "new" supplies too!! Is there a place you'd recommend me buying stuff. I'm looking to save as much money as I can on supplies (ie sanding blocks, sanding paper, file boards, mixing cups..........even reducers and solvents, and other stuff. I figure you can get stuff like that cheapest on the internet.

I usually get my paint and catalysts from the local automotive paint store.
 
(quoted from post at 16:17:35 03/06/19)
What are you using for lung protection while spraying paint, btw?

I am using a 3M cartridge mask with the charcoal filters. I keep it in a zip lock bag and change the filters once a year. Usually paint 2-3 tractors a year.

I’ll read through the rest of the post and reply back once I’ve let it soak in. :D

You can get by on the correct filter mask if you are using the right cartridges (7046?) AND you can keep the air clean in your workspace with fans and such. Also the mask has to be sealed...no beards allowed. Even then this leaves a lot to be desired for eye protection. I can no longer wear contacts and I swear up and down that it is due to getting spray mist in my eyes during painting with a half-mask/not having clear enough air.

I also sprayed a pickup box and cab in urethane one winter with just the filter mask. I was so close to calling an ambulance when I couldn't sleep that night. It is not worth it in the short term or long term to expose yourself to this stuff. Period.

The cartridges need replaced MUCH more often than you are doing it. I think the plastic bag is an OK idea but even then you are way behind on replacing them...especially if the air stays foggy in your work place. Realistically you should be replacing the cartridges with every prime/paint session and now you will see the economics of a supplied air system paying off.

The single best investment I made is a full mask with supplied air from outside. You still need to get the air in the shop cleared out but it becomes more about keeping overspray and dust down for the project at this point, and slightly less of a concern for your lungs. Please consider purchasing a supplied air system as your highest priority and thank me later when you realize how much vapor you were exposing yourself to.

A spray suit is cheap. The Astro one fits me well and is a smaller investment that will keep your skin protected better and keep you from getting paint on your street clothes.
 
(quoted from post at 09:56:15 03/07/19) This is all so helpful and thank you to everyone. With the expierence of painting tractors over the past 10 years and learning as I go; it is all starting to fall into place and make sense. Now all I have to do is get some hands-on expierence if this weather will warm up!! Sounds like I also need to buy a bunch of "new" supplies too!! Is there a place you'd recommend me buying stuff. I'm looking to save as much money as I can on supplies (ie sanding blocks, sanding paper, file boards, mixing cups..........even reducers and solvents, and other stuff. I figure you can get stuff like that cheapest on the internet.

I usually get my paint and catalysts from the local automotive paint store.

autobodytoolmart.com
autobodystore.net

You will probably be overwhelmed with how many options there are for sand paper. You can also get into a false economy where you think you are being savvy by buying cheap. If you are using 3x the amount of sheets, then you've actually wasted more.
 
A sanding block is good to use on sheet metal. The hard rubber block tends to sand only the high places and leaves the low places. Still epoxy doesn't sand well so this is better done with a filler primer. If you are unsure if you are getting the surface level or not you could use two different colors of the filler primer alternating colors with each coat. If you sand through the layer you are sanding which makes a very small sand through spot you know you have a bump in the surface which will show in the final coat.

As far as sanding bondo if you have a random orbital sander that would be good to use on that. Then when you get close you can put a final light skim of bondo on and use your rubber block to finish.
 
(quoted from post at 06:44:44 03/08/19) A sanding block is good to use on sheet metal. The hard rubber block tends to sand only the high places and leaves the low places. Still epoxy doesn't sand well so this is better done with a filler primer. If you are unsure if you are getting the surface level or not you could use two different colors of the filler primer alternating colors with each coat. If you sand through the layer you are sanding which makes a very small sand through spot you know you have a bump in the surface which will show in the final coat.

As far as sanding bondo if you have a random orbital sander that would be good to use on that. Then when you get close you can put a final light skim of bondo on and use your rubber block to finish.

Where was it suggested to use epoxy as a sanding primer?
 

More Questions about a 2K Epoxy Primer..........

* What type gun should I use ? (siphon feed or HVLP) I have both types.

* What size tip needs to be used? I have the Harbor Freight HVLP gun but don't even know what size tip it came with

* How long can the primer be mixed in the cup (or in the gun) with the catylist in there ? Seems like if I sit the gun down to let coats flash, the paint starts to thicken more and more (talking about color acrylic enamel with a catylist since I've never used a 2K primer).
 
(quoted from post at 16:16:39 03/18/19)
More Questions about a 2K Epoxy Primer..........

* What type gun should I use ? (siphon feed or HVLP) I have both types.

* What size tip needs to be used? I have the Harbor Freight HVLP gun but don't even know what size tip it came with

* How long can the primer be mixed in the cup (or in the gun) with the catylist in there ? Seems like if I sit the gun down to let coats flash, the paint starts to thicken more and more (talking about color acrylic enamel with a catylist since I've never used a 2K primer).

For urethane you are fine letting it flash 10 minutes without cleaning the gun. If you use polyesters this will give you a rock.

Siphon feed and gravity feed are two types of gun. Hvlp can be either but are almost 100% of the time gravity. There is no reason for you to buy hvlp and will almost certainly get on better with what is called high transfer efficiency which is technically hvlp efficiency with conventional spray action. For urethane surface I would say 1.8 if you aren't thinning it.
 
Question: I went to a couple of local paint stores in town to see what they offered in a 2K Epoxy Primer. Both stores carry PPG products. One store said they have a 2-part primer that is a PPG Shopline JP37x Epoxy Primer in Black or Gray. It runs $190 for a gallon with the hardener. The other store recommended the Devoe Bar-Rust 235, 2-part epoxy primer (shown in the attachment). It is only about $65.00 for a gallon of the primer and hardener. I really can't justify spending $200.00 on a primer for an old tractor. Is there really that big a difference??

mvphoto33167.jpg


mvphoto33168.jpg


mvphoto33169.jpg


mvphoto33170.jpg
 

After making that last post, I realize you can't read the attachments very well. I tried uploading the pdf of the documents but this site doesn't support that. Sorry that you can't read what I am actually asking about. Not sure how else to do it.
 
(quoted from post at 14:17:52 03/20/19)
After making that last post, I realize you can't read the attachments very well. I tried uploading the pdf of the documents but this site doesn't support that. Sorry that you can't read what I am actually asking about. Not sure how else to do it.

It's ok -- the tech sheets are usually easy to find online with the part numbers.

The first thing you should do is re-clarify how much of each you are getting for the amount of money. If it is $190 primer + $190 hardener vs $190 for the kit that is a huge difference. Ask yourself "How many sprayable gallons per dollar" for each.

Maybe you've already done that clarification. I've never used either product but can tell you that Kirker Enduro Prime is fantastic and is going to get right in the $120-$140 range for 2 sprayable gallons. It is the only epoxy primer that I can/will recommend based on my own experience.

From reading that Bar-Rust TDS...it doesn't even appear to really be a primer but is a "semi-gloss coating."

"
The following topcoats are recommended for Bar-Rust 235:
Devthane 349QC Devthane 359
Devthane 359H Devthane 378
Devthane 378H Devthane 379
Devthane 379H Devthane 389N
Devthane 389H
"

I'm guessing these are urethanes that the same company sells?

I'm pretty uneasy about this product.
 
(quoted from post at 00:33:03 03/21/19)
(quoted from post at 14:17:52 03/20/19)
After making that last post, I realize you can't read the attachments very well. I tried uploading the pdf of the documents but this site doesn't support that. Sorry that you can't read what I am actually asking about. Not sure how else to do it.

It's ok -- the tech sheets are usually easy to find online with the part numbers.

The first thing you should do is re-clarify how much of each you are getting for the amount of money. If it is $190 primer + $190 hardener vs $190 for the kit that is a huge difference. Ask yourself "How many sprayable gallons per dollar" for each.

Maybe you've already done that clarification. I've never used either product but can tell you that Kirker Enduro Prime is fantastic and is going to get right in the $120-$140 range for 2 sprayable gallons. It is the only epoxy primer that I can/will recommend based on my own experience.

From reading that Bar-Rust TDS...it doesn't even appear to really be a primer but is a "semi-gloss coating."

"
The following topcoats are recommended for Bar-Rust 235:
Devthane 349QC Devthane 359
Devthane 359H Devthane 378
Devthane 378H Devthane 379
Devthane 379H Devthane 389N
Devthane 389H
"

I'm guessing these are urethanes that the same company sells?

I'm pretty uneasy about this product.

Yes it is $190 for the “kit”. Once mixed it is 1 sprayable gallon.

The guy told me he thought it looked like they recommended painting with their urethanes rather than me spraying acrylic enamel over it. I’m not sure who carries the lurker product. Neither store has heard of it.
 
(quoted from post at 15:16:02 03/20/19)
(quoted from post at 00:33:03 03/21/19)
(quoted from post at 14:17:52 03/20/19)
After making that last post, I realize you can't read the attachments very well. I tried uploading the pdf of the documents but this site doesn't support that. Sorry that you can't read what I am actually asking about. Not sure how else to do it.

It's ok -- the tech sheets are usually easy to find online with the part numbers.

The first thing you should do is re-clarify how much of each you are getting for the amount of money. If it is $190 primer + $190 hardener vs $190 for the kit that is a huge difference. Ask yourself "How many sprayable gallons per dollar" for each.

Maybe you've already done that clarification. I've never used either product but can tell you that Kirker Enduro Prime is fantastic and is going to get right in the $120-$140 range for 2 sprayable gallons. It is the only epoxy primer that I can/will recommend based on my own experience.

From reading that Bar-Rust TDS...it doesn't even appear to really be a primer but is a "semi-gloss coating."

"
The following topcoats are recommended for Bar-Rust 235:
Devthane 349QC Devthane 359
Devthane 359H Devthane 378
Devthane 378H Devthane 379
Devthane 379H Devthane 389N
Devthane 389H
"

I'm guessing these are urethanes that the same company sells?

I'm pretty uneasy about this product.

Yes it is $190 for the “kit”. Once mixed it is 1 sprayable gallon.

The guy told me he thought it looked like they recommended painting with their urethanes rather than me spraying acrylic enamel over it. I’m not sure who carries the lurker product. Neither store has heard of it.

Buy the Kirker stuff online -- I doubt you will find someone local.

$70 for the primer, $51.50 for the catalyst = probably $130 shipped for 2 sprayable gallons of a known great product:

https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/kirker-enduro-prime-dtm-epoxy-primer-p-12620.aspx
 

Another online and affordable option is Southern Polyurethanes Inc (SPI). I've used their products quite a bit and I love them. I'll be painting my JD 3020 this summer primarily with SPI products.
 
(quoted from post at 09:14:05 03/29/19)
Another online and affordable option is Southern Polyurethanes Inc (SPI). I've used their products quite a bit and I love them. I'll be painting my JD 3020 this summer primarily with SPI products.

Definitely a good product from what I have read but about double the Kirker price + their epoxy doesn't play nice with any acid pre-treating we have been discussing.
 

Yep I ran the numbers on the Kirker compared to the SPI and 60/sprayable gallon sure beats the 100/sprayable gallon for SPI.

With regard to the acid treatment yes, SPI is strongly against the use of any of those products, and I normally try to avoid using those treatments on my own projects.

I’m going to try the Kirker epoxy though! :)
 

Let me tell you kirker is pure crap vs spi. Not even close to the same quality. I really urge you to stick with spi.
 
(reply to post at 18:56:07 04/02/19)
Paint is very difficult to compare one brand to another and another product that seems the same isn't at all. I have used every major brand of paints in my shops and I most often use spi epoxy and reducers even with ppg sikkens and house of color base coats. Spi epoxy will cover and kill even very bad rust and has much higher quality ingredients vs kirker. It's well worth a bit extra to be sure you have a stable base to work off of.
 
(quoted from post at 20:56:07 04/02/19)
Let me tell you kirker is pure crap vs spi. Not even close to the same quality. I really urge you to stick with spi.

I can assure you that kirker epoxy primer is not pure crap.
 
(quoted from post at 07:45:10 04/03/19)
(quoted from post at 20:56:07 04/02/19)
Let me tell you kirker is pure crap vs spi. Not even close to the same quality. I really urge you to stick with spi.

I can assure you that kirker epoxy primer is not pure crap.

I’m going to order a gallon of Kirker
 

RTR, it appears to me that you need to get the opinion of someone with credentials. Here at YT, when it comes to great auto body work Glennster has been the recognized authority for many years. I am surprised that he hasn't chimed in here yet. It would be wise for you to post a shout out to him.
 

I have never been disappointed with it. I think you will like it as a beginner as well. There are tons of people in forums that slam it without ever even have used it, which is something to watch for.

No doubt, spi is pretty universally praised and you would get on great with it as well if you want to spend the money.
 

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