Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question

RTR · Jan 2, 2019

I am currently restoring a Farmall 140 tractor and a Cub Cadet 1450 lawn tractor. Since I am working alone and doing the work on the weekends, there is not enough time to completely finish one task. I am saying that I have been cleaning, sanding, and wire wheeling the tractor a little at a time down to bare metal and they are both sitting in my open air shop (pretty damp conditions lately) that has a concrete floor and covered 15 foot high roof.

My question is how can I protect what I have cleaned so far without having it to rust and have to go back over it again? I want to use a good quality primer to fill imperfections and give a nice final top coat finish, but it would be too much trouble to mix up a little bit of primer just to paint a portion of the tractor each time I clean it or clean a part.

What are your suggestions? Should I use rattle can primer (rustoleum grey) as I go first, then use the good primer in the HVLP gun once it is all done ?

David G · Jan 2, 2019

one part epoxy primer.

TJ in KY · Jan 2, 2019

I would recommend epoxy primer. I had the same problem with my Ford 8n tractor and did it in sections. The only draw back to using epoxy is you
have a recoat window, usually less than 2 days, depends on the brand you use. If you don't get your final color on (or high build primer on sheetmetal)
in the recoat window you have to scuff with a Scotchbrite pad and apply another coat of epoxy and then the final color.
I did mine in stages, and then bolted it together. Then I scuffed with the pad and shot another coat of epoxy and final color

RTR · Jan 3, 2019

(quoted from post at 07:43:25 01/03/19) I would recommend epoxy primer. I had the same problem with my Ford 8n tractor and did it in sections. The only draw back to using epoxy is you
have a recoat window, usually less than 2 days, depends on the brand you use. If you don't get your final color on (or high build primer on sheetmetal)
in the recoat window you have to scuff with a Scotchbrite pad and apply another coat of epoxy and then the final color.
I did mine in stages, and then bolted it together. Then I scuffed with the pad and shot another coat of epoxy and final color

Not sure if I want to go that route if you have to paint the whole thing with color top coat within 2 days. With me only able to work on this it would be tough to do.

RTR · Jan 3, 2019

What do you all do when you're only able to clean a small area at a time and then a week later go back and clean another area? Do you all just leave the bare metal as-is until a month or so later when you're ready to prime it?

dr sportster · Jan 3, 2019

I spray with a light coat of SEM metal etching primer in a spray can.

rustyfarmall · Jan 3, 2019

(quoted from post at 13:51:49 01/02/19) I am currently restoring a Farmall 140 tractor and a Cub Cadet 1450 lawn tractor. Since I am working alone and doing the work on the weekends, there is not enough time to completely finish one task. I am saying that I have been cleaning, sanding, and wire wheeling the tractor a little at a time down to bare metal and they are both sitting in my open air shop (pretty damp conditions lately) that has a concrete floor and covered 15 foot high roof.

My question is how can I protect what I have cleaned so far without having it to rust and have to go back over it again? I want to use a good quality primer to fill imperfections and give a nice final top coat finish, but it would be too much trouble to mix up a little bit of primer just to paint a portion of the tractor each time I clean it or clean a part.

What are your suggestions? Should I use rattle can primer (rustoleum grey) as I go first, then use the good primer in the HVLP gun once it is all done ?

Yes.That is how I would do it. Inexpensive rattle can primer applied as you go, and when the tractor is ready, sand it all smooth and shoot the good stuff.

showcrop · Jan 3, 2019

2X SEM metal etching primer. You say that you are restoring which implies that you would like the rust to not bubble up through the paint for a few years after you are done, so you want to use the good stuff. Also sanding and wire wheeling will remove most of the rust, but not down in the pits. A professional auto body guy painted the hood to a tractor for me and I had bubbles coming up in three years. He said that primer is primer. So you want to use one of the many Phosphoric Acid rust converter products before the primer and follow the instructions

mcrow4117 · Jan 3, 2019

epoxy primer can be top coated with 2k primer or paint in a cpl hours. It doesn’t need a long dry time. The 2 k primer can sit as long as you want

RTR · Jan 3, 2019

(quoted from post at 10:14:42 01/04/19) epoxy primer can be top coated with 2k primer or paint in a cpl hours. It doesn’t need a long dry time. The 2 k primer can sit as long as you want

Well I hope I didn't mess up bad but I finished cleaning tenfrane tonight with the wire wheel, blew it off clean, wiped down well with acetone, and shot some Rustoleum grey primer on it. I will plan to use the epoxy primer when I get ready to paint the frame and all other parts with the color coat. Will it work?? I will be using Case/IH Ironguard paint by the way.

yakob · Jan 4, 2019

What you should be doing is using an epoxy or self-etching primer as immediately as possible following paint/rust removal. Usually the recoat window on these is within 24 hours, and you speak like you want a
surfacer/sanding primer/high build primer/whatever you want to call it, so I'd shoot a couple coats of one of these on over your metal sealing coat in order to be sanded where applicable.

Areas that you don't want to resand, I'd recommend trying to plan to topcoat within that window or plan to rescuff with a pad when you are ready.

I hate using surfacer where there will be lots of overspray, FYI. It hits the adjacent surfaces after drying in the air in these cases and can give you a porous surface to deal with on the next coat/top coat
and be a B***h to sand back smooth.

We often clean up and sand an entire tractor before painting. Some parts sit for 2-3 weeks very regularly. Our shop is very dry in the winter, so we don't have any issue with flash rust coming in, nor does
it come through the finish 20 years down the road doing it this way. If you have humidity/damp floor, this probably won't pan out for you. This probably isn't the BEST advice to spread around and admittedly
is not ideal, but you have to work at some level of convenience and material consciousness.

RedGreenGuy · Jan 4, 2019

I have been using Eastwood After Blast. About $40/gal. Goes a looong way. I clean my surfaces than use
spritz bottle for application. Have not had a flash rust problem. Have not undercoated for month or more
and no flash rust. Unnecessary to remove. I undercoat over it after wiping clean again.

Alan8n · Jan 6, 2019

I have struggled with the same thing before. I have tried 2 products that seem to work for me. Dry Coat is one and the other is Rust Block. On bare metal you spray it on and let it dry and it says it will protect bare metal up to a year. I have never let it stay on that long. When you are ready to paint I wash it off with hot water and then dry it with a heat gun. Doing that eliminates the flash rust. Obviously you can't hose the whole tractor down so I do it in sections and dry it as quickly as possible. If I get a little flash rust I use a scotchbrite and then the epoxy primer over it and top coat within the time limit for the primer.
This has worked for me and your mileage may vary
Alan

Alan8n · Jan 6, 2019

I have struggled with the same thing before. I have tried 2 products that seem to work for me. Dry Coat is one and the other is Rust Block. On bare metal you spray it on and let it dry and it says it will protect bare metal up to a year. I have never let it stay on that long. When you are ready to paint I wash it off with hot water and then dry it with a heat gun. Doing that eliminates the flash rust. Obviously you can't hose the whole tractor down so I do it in sections and dry it as quickly as possible. If I get a little flash rust I use a scotchbrite and then the epoxy primer over it and top coat within the time limit for the primer.
This has worked for me and your mileage may vary
Alan

Alan8n · Jan 6, 2019

I have struggled with the same thing before. I have tried 2 products that seem to work for me. Dry Coat is one and the other is Rust Block. On bare metal you spray it on and let it dry and it says it will protect bare metal up to a year. I have never let it stay on that long. When you are ready to paint I wash it off with hot water and then dry it with a heat gun. Doing that eliminates the flash rust. Obviously you can't hose the whole tractor down so I do it in sections and dry it as quickly as possible. If I get a little flash rust I use a scotchbrite and then the epoxy primer over it and top coat within the time limit for the primer.
This has worked for me and your mileage may vary
Alan

yakob · Jan 7, 2019

(quoted from post at 17:25:44 01/02/19) one part epoxy primer.

I just reread this thread and saw this comment...

What is "one part epoxy?" Doesn't it require 2 parts that you mix to be a true epoxy?

DScott · Feb 9, 2019

I am far from being an expert but I struggled with the same issues the original poster mentioned when I started in this hobby as I had never painted anything. This is how I have prepped and painted my tractors since 2000:
Use paint stripper and a hot water pressure washer to strip the tractor down to bare metal. I do use electrolysis on some parts (fuel tanks, etc). As soon as they are clean, I spray them down with phosphoric acid and wipe off any excess after a few minutes. Parts will be almost black in some areas and white in others. These can set for months without any surface rust coming back when kept inside my shop.
When ready to prime, I wipe down with a good prep cleaner (Prep-sol, etc.). I then shoot the epoxy primer, I usually use PPG Omni epoxy primer. Wait the required time and then top coat.
This has always worked for me, some of these tractors I restored 19 years ago still look fresh with no rust bubbles or creeping out around the nuts and bolts as I see on some older restorations. I have heard people caution about priming/painting over phosphoric treated metals but I have never had an issue.

Below is a pic of my 34 A (painted in 2008) after being treated with phosphoric acid and ready for primer.

Same tractor after being primed.

After paint (John Deere Classic green).

Finished tractor, pic taken last summer.

ASEguy · Feb 10, 2019

You do good work. I use Picklex-20 instead of phosphoric acid. You never regret doing it right.

RTR · Feb 10, 2019

(quoted from post at 19:22:21 02/10/19) You do good work. I use Picklex-20 instead of phosphoric acid. You never regret doing it right.

This is what I’m dealing with and why I choose to prime as I go on cleaning. I cleaned the tractor a couple months ago and re-cleaned the axle last weekend and went ahead and primed it with rattle can primer. That is all I could finish the one day I had time to work.

See all of the surface rust on the cleaned areas that has accumulated? I feel like it will be near impossible to clean back off for a good paintable surface. All I have to use is a twisted wire wheel on a grinder and regular sand paper.

What do you all suggest to clean back to bare metal so I can lay down some good epoxy primer ? I don’t want to do any more sanding/cleaning on the tractor until I know I can get it primed within a week.

RTR · Feb 10, 2019

(quoted from post at 00:27:25 02/11/19)

(quoted from post at 19:22:21 02/10/19) You do good work. I use Picklex-20 instead of phosphoric acid. You never regret doing it right.

Click to expand...

Pictures of the above.....

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31171.jpg[/img]

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31174.jpg[/img]

RTR · Feb 10, 2019

Pictures- 2nd try.

yakob · Feb 11, 2019

(quoted from post at 14:38:07 02/10/19)
Pictures- 2nd try.

You don't really have that big of a mess on your hands, so I hope you aren't stressing out too much about it.

The wire wheel is going to get it back off the fastest. Some guys don't like to use them because they "polish" the surface...we haven't really had a problem but you could get a box of scuff pads or 320 sand paper and abrade the metal after cleaning with a wire wheel if it concerns you (it definitely won't be a step backwards). If you can't primer all at once and paint in your situation, I would suggest priming as you go as mentioned before. When it comes time to paint, scuff the cured primer yet again with some scuff pads, do a final seal coat of primer, then spray your paint on within recoat windows.

I always recommend against cheap primers, and you definitely don't want a primer that is going to "roll up" under whatever you do the final scuff with when the time comes...you'll have a whole new mess on your hands.

Another option would be to massage one of the phosphoric products into the metal with a scuff pad, section by section. Keep drips at bay and be careful with it -- get the rust dissolved as best you can then wipe *clean* with a damp cloth, then move to the next section. Again with this I would recommend scuffing once it comes time to prime/paint fully...I'm not a fan of trying to paint over hardened products of any sort without a good scuff to get things to adhere. I would recommend rolling out plastic under your tractor while you do this to keep concrete spots at bay if you drip a bit here and there.

Your primer cannot be an acid based primer to go over the phosphoric coating. I'm a fan of Kirker EnduroPrime epoxy primer these days. Fantastic product at a great price. It does take a couple hours to flash off for paint, but you might be able to turn your heat up to like 80* for a bit once done spraying to get around that...it sounds like you are a little pinched for time like the rest of us.

The only way in MY opinion that you will avoid re-scuffing whatever you put on the metal is if you prep the entire piece, prime, paint all with in a couple days.

Scuff pads:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/Scotch-Brite-Hand-Pad-7447/?N=5002385+3293241244&rt=rud

Epoxy primer:
https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/kirker-enduro-prime-epoxy-primer-p-12620.aspx
https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/kirker-enduro-prime-epoxy-primer-catalyst-p-12621.aspx

RTR · Mar 5, 2019

(quoted from post at 20:50:43 02/11/19)

Thanks for the suggestions. Those are good words. I think I'm going to finish cleaning the rest of the tractor and pull it outside to wipe down with a vinegar-water mix (or phosphoric acid, then vinegar-water, then a prep-cleaner) to get the flash rust off the tractor. I will also be able to pressure wash the entire tractor before paint and let it dry in the sun. I don't have a way to "bake" the tractor or turn up the heat so the sun and weather temp is the only thing working for me.

Does anyone else have suggestions to get that surface flash rust off, or is my idea above good??

I think I'm gonna shoot an epoxy primer over it once cleaned.

yakob · Mar 5, 2019

(quoted from post at 13:11:13 03/05/19)

(quoted from post at 20:50:43 02/11/19)

Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestions. Those are good words. I think I'm going to finish cleaning the rest of the tractor and pull it outside to wipe down with a vinegar-water mix (or phosphoric acid, then vinegar-water, then a prep-cleaner) to get the flash rust off the tractor. I will also be able to pressure wash the entire tractor before paint and let it dry in the sun. I don't have a way to "bake" the tractor or turn up the heat so the sun and weather temp is the only thing working for me.

Does anyone else have suggestions to get that surface flash rust off, or is my idea above good??

I think I'm gonna shoot an epoxy primer over it once cleaned.

The rust isn't going to just "wash/wipe off" with anything short of scuff pads, if that is what you meant to say. The phosphoric treatments need to stay wet while they work and the best way to achieve this is to do them a small (1'x1') area at a time until that area is clean, wipe well with dry cloth, and progress. You seem to be interested in this type of product and in your case this looks like a good solution as it will leave the metal "rust resistant" at least for the immediate future. The coating will need scuffed again before priming for adhesion.

The vinegar is a waste of time IMO.

RTR · Mar 5, 2019

Does the acid have to be neutralized after treatment? I know I soaked a gas tank with muratic Acid once and didn’t neutralize it just washed it out. It rusted back up worse than it was.

yakob · Mar 5, 2019

(quoted from post at 13:56:49 03/05/19)
Does the acid have to be neutralized after treatment? I know I soaked a gas tank with muratic Acid once and didn’t neutralize it just washed it out. It rusted back up worse than it was.

That probably depends on what you use. For example, Kirker's acid product says to neutralize with their cleaner as your next step before topcoating.

"For best results DTM Prep 6860 should be netrulized before applying a top coat primer such as Kirkers EP series of epoxy primers. to do this allow to fully air dry, then wipe off with clean water damped rag or a surface wash such as kirker 600 surface wash. "

Picklex I see used heavily on another forum and the process is to do what I have described -- just work one section and keep wiped off well with clean towels, then scuff before priming.

Some products (Picklex may actually be one of them) will actually tell to prime right over them, without the scuffing step. This is generally not accepted by the pros and seems to be marketing jargon to make the product appear easier to use than it actually is.

All products need to dry well before priming.

Whatever process you choose DO A SMALL AREA/PART FIRST from start to finish to make sure the process succeeds for you and you can't see weird spots coming through. If spots show up...you need to work harder at the wiping stage, most likely (LOL).

showcrop · Mar 5, 2019

(quoted from post at 11:56:49 03/05/19)
Does the acid have to be neutralized after treatment? I know I soaked a gas tank with muratic Acid once and didn’t neutralize it just washed it out. It rusted back up worse than it was.

RTR, if you use any of the tried and proven phosphoric acid rust converters like Picklex or SEM Rust Mort which I use, it may just eat that flash rust easily. It is tough to tell from a photograph. Anyway, as you use your product of choice by the instructions, you will see the rust turning black. The black substance is iron phosphate which is inert. it is the black coating that they put on impact wrench sockets. As the instructions on the container will tell you you give it the contact time and keep brushing it, then wash it to get the excess off. I toss small pieces into a bucket and pressure wash larger pieces. Areas that don't have rust to convert need to be dried soon to avoid flash rust. I usually use a cloth soaked with alcohol. If you wash adequately the metal will be clean when dry. If not you will see a white residue which will need additional water washing with a brush

RTR · Mar 6, 2019

WHEW! That Picklex 20 looks like some good stuff, but gosh it is expensive. I know one should not skimp on the paint prep, but I could see using a half gallon ($100 worth) per tractor. Am I right? What are my options as far as equivalent stuff but cheaper, or where should I buy this stuff? I'll go with it if I have no choice like I said becuase it seems to be good stuff, but wanted to ask.

yakob · Mar 6, 2019

(quoted from post at 14:29:41 03/06/19) WHEW! That Picklex 20 looks like some good stuff, but gosh it is expensive. I know one should not skimp on the paint prep, but I could see using a half gallon ($100 worth) per tractor. Am I right? What are my options as far as equivalent stuff but cheaper, or where should I buy this stuff? I'll go with it if I have no choice like I said becuase it seems to be good stuff, but wanted to ask.

It will go a long way. I honestly haven't really used any of these products to speak of and don't know what would actually prevent you from using the klean strip acid etch the same way and it is like $15/gallon...

showcrop · Mar 6, 2019

(quoted from post at 12:29:41 03/06/19) WHEW! That Picklex 20 looks like some good stuff, but gosh it is expensive. I know one should not skimp on the paint prep, but I could see using a half gallon ($100 worth) per tractor. Am I right? What are my options as far as equivalent stuff but cheaper, or where should I buy this stuff? I'll go with it if I have no choice like I said becuase it seems to be good stuff, but wanted to ask.

RTR, my current project is a 1967 Datsun roadster. It was very rusty. I bought a quart of the Rust Mort when I started in 2015 and I have not used all of it and I am now in final assembly. It goes a long way. As stated earlier there are a number of different products that you can use, however if you want the conversion to iron phosphate which is a PROTECTIVE COATING it has to be PHOSPHORIC acid based. The Rustmort is made by SEM. they specialize in products for the auto body industry. RTR, please read this post two more times.

RTR · Mar 7, 2019

RTR, please read this post two more times.

I understand what you are saying and while I'm trying to save money where I can I will use what I need to that will work. If I save money here and there when it will work like the more expensive stuff, it will all add up in the end!

Like Yakob mentioned, why wouldn't the Klean Strip Acid Etch work just as good as the SEM Rust Mort? It looks like they are both phosphoric acid based which is what I need....right?? $16 a gallon is a lot better than $80 a gallon.

yakob · Mar 7, 2019

(quoted from post at 10:04:18 03/07/19)

RTR, please read this post two more times.

Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying and while I'm trying to save money where I can I will use what I need to that will work. If I save money here and there when it will work like the more expensive stuff, it will all add up in the end!

Like Yakob mentioned, why wouldn't the Klean Strip Acid Etch work just as good as the SEM Rust Mort? It looks like they are both phosphoric acid based which is what I need....right?? $16 a gallon is a lot better than $80 a gallon.

Check out Eastwood as well. They tend to carry a full line of just their own label. I'm not sure who actually manufactures it all but it is a bit easier to find a set of products when they aren't selling 25 different brands. You can probably call their tech support and figure out which products you need to buy...lots of rust removal products there. You could get free catalogs as well.

RTR · Mar 7, 2019

Ok. I will check with Eastwood. The Klean Strip stuff is found at Home Depot so that is really easy.

paintron · Mar 12, 2019

(quoted from post at 13:51:49 01/02/19) I am currently restoring a Farmall 140 tractor and a Cub Cadet 1450 lawn tractor. Since I am working alone and doing the work on the weekends, there is not enough time to completely finish one task. I am saying that I have been cleaning, sanding, and wire wheeling the tractor a little at a time down to bare metal and they are both sitting in my open air shop (pretty damp conditions lately) that has a concrete floor and covered 15 foot high roof.

My question is how can I protect what I have cleaned so far without having it to rust and have to go back over it again? I want to use a good quality primer to fill imperfections and give a nice final top coat finish, but it would be too much trouble to mix up a little bit of primer just to paint a portion of the tractor each time I clean it or clean a part.

What are your suggestions? Should I use rattle can primer (rustoleum grey) as I go first, then use the good primer in the HVLP gun once it is all done ?

Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question

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