1850 Engine

BFinIA

New User
7 1/2 years ago I bought a 1967 1850 diesel tractor with a short wheel base front end. I began to restore tractor - new hydraulics and went through everything but was running out of time so took
to a local implement New Holland dealer (previous white and oliver dealer). They completely overhauled it and were breaking it in on dyno and it completely locked up. Upon tear down it was discovered that the machine shop had honed the cylinders to 2-105 specs (too small). Also locking up under load appeared to have distorted the connecting rods and caps and the crank shaft. We found a used crank shaft and connecting rods, had new sleeves
and pistons put in, new bearings, bushings etc. Started using
the tractor seeding alfalfa and on a feeder wagon. After 100 hours started getting oil in the radiator. Checked out the oil cooler no problem there. Took apart and found head gasket leaking fixed - started feeding cattle again, another 30 hours and oil in radiator again.
Took apart and determined sleeves were sitting too high above the block and top of block was not surfaced completely flat. Put together again, more research on gasket, supposedly right gasket to match serial number on block. Started feeding cattle, another 30 hours later - oil in radiator. Machine shop says block must be cracked. Got different block, checked it out, new sleeves, put back together. Put on dyno and starts leaking oil to the outside and head gasket seeping oil. Machine shop doesn't want to see it anymore.
Had another mechanic look at it and discovered sleeves were placed too high because the counterbore of the sleeve was 5-10 thousandths above top of block, and should be 5-8 thousandths below. Also could see very light impressions of the valve heads on the pistons, so if we redo the sleeves and lower them, to get the head lower so the gasket will seal, the pistons will pound the valves. This has been going on for 7 years. The dealer and I both have too much money tied up in this, but would appreciate any advice on how to move forward to get my tractor runnning. It's just a good old 354 Perkins!
 
Thicker head gasket, recess the valves, turn the tops of the pistons down? Seems like someone, somewhere, did not know what they were
doing.

Possibly the head gasket spec was no longer appropriate for the block if it had already been skimmed. I don?t know enough of the Perkins specs,
but the above are just a few thoughts as a starter.
 
Wow! I feel bad just reading your post. I'm
no expert but have more questions than
answers. The part about honing the
cylinders, why did they require honing? A
new set of sleeves should have cross
hatching in them already. We're the
cylinder bores out of round before
installing new sleeves? Counterbores not
cleaned up properly? Those sleeves are
press fit, did they not get them down all
the way? Sleeve protrusion across all six
must have been ignored. So many things
here....
The engine locking up would first tell me
lack of lubrication, but why? Was a new oil pump
used or the old one reinstalled? (Their was
an upgrade). Assembly procedures/practices.
Anyone ever retorque the head and reset the
valves after the initial runin? Was the
rotating assembly balanced (rods and
pistons)? What condition is the fuel
system? This is in my opinion the second
half of an overhaul. Sorry for all the
questions but I'm afraid this is going to
be expensive and complicated to figure out.
Probably best to start from scratch.
 
The third time I had trouble with mine,I didn't even bother. I went and bought a good low hour 354 out of a White 8700 combine and put that in it. Saves a whole lot of time,money and aggravation.
 
Sounds like you got sucked into some "expert" who may be an OK mechanic, but doesn't know Perkins. There are many, many versions of the 354 with different specs for almost every part, you can't just say "I need parts for a 354". As to the reply below, Perkins sleeves are available both as finished, and semi-finished (requires honing). As to the head gasket, I would assume you meant that it was correct for the engine serial, not tractor serial. Perkins sells a sealant that should have been applied to both sides of the gasket before assembly, the after market sealants do not work as well or at all. The best source for engine parts, but not the least expensive, is Perkins themselves. We always dealt with Perkins Great Lakes, but Perkins distributors have limited territories so you would have to deal with the distributor that covers your area.
 
I agree with Ian. What dimensions did you use for the valves in the head How much recession do you have on the valves?
 
Thanks for all the responses, I'll try and answer your questions.
The mechanics we are using are good, but found out the machinist was an arro
gant rookie. 40 years ago we did not hone sleeves for 354 Perkins but just pounded them in and they normally used oil, but in the last 15-20 years have found that power honing to the correct diameter would give them good compression, power, and they will not use oil. The engine locked up because the ID of the sleeves was too small and we had metal transferring from pistons to sleeves after it warmed up. Engine oil pressure was good. We
have used Perkins parts, the fuel system was redone with reman
injectors and pump. The question that remains and we are digging into is we believe the 2nd block was previously planed down too far. We are looking for specs for both block and head plane down, only when we used the 2nd block with the same head did we get valves contacting pistons. I do not know valve
recession, need to find specs. The correct gasket and sealer
needs to be figured out, we may have had the right gasket and sealer but the wrong sleeve protrusion the last time. There are many different thicknesses of gasket for the 354 Perkins depending on the engine serial number.
I'm tending to agree with rrlund to find a good combine motor. Can you find combine motors with the 3 motor mount system as compared to the four as used in the 105? I appreciate all the responses, if anyone knows where to find 354 specs/serial number please post them, or where to find them. Or know of a good replacement motor. Thank you all very much.
 
Send me a U S mail address and a phone number. I have a genuine Oliver 1850 shop manual and I can photo copy the spec pages and mail them to you.
 
As far as the combine motor,you have to use the front cover and pan from the original tractor engine so you can use the front mount. There area a dozen or more other parts that have to be swapped from the original engine too,but it's not a bad job. Super99 on this forum has one out of a Massey 750 combine in one of his. When I was looking,we found that one from a newer Massey 550 appeared to have a different front crank,but most all the earlier 354s looked like they'd work.

If you do decide to go that route,I can give you a list of parts that have to be swapped as best I can remember them.
 
rrlund- Thanks so much for your reply. I'm thinking that your motor swapping idea may be the best.
I am seeing what I can find for a motor. If you could help me out with the parts that need to be swapped I would appreciate it. Thanks again.
 
If you find one,post back and I'll try to remember what all has to be swapped. It's a long list,but it's just small external stuff for the most part. Things that would come off for an out of frame overhaul anyway.
 
While the machinist may not have done things correctly, it's the mechanic's responsibility to verify everything is right during assembly. It doesn't sound like he did. If the block has been surfaced to correct for eroded counterbores, piston stand out must be checked and corrected if needed. If the pistons have enough material simply cutting them down in a lathe will do the job.
 

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