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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken

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dave404

07-23-2012 18:17:46




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well , heres what ive come up with.
the sleeves will drop in on their own.
we measures the bores and outside diameter of the sleeves.
the bores are 3.272 and o.d of sleeves are 3.266
a difference of 6. so an oversize .005 sleeve will still be too loose .? Had to be the problem of extreme smoking.

gonna chk. machine shops tomorrow and see if i can get it bored and use the .90 sleeves.
wouldnt be safe to use lock-tite would it ? Someone correct me if im wrong,im not too good at math

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TheOldHokie

07-25-2012 04:38:43




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to Britcheflee, 07-23-2012 18:17:46  
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Not to mention the .090 sleeves are a better mousetrap.

TOH



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NOXJohn

07-25-2012 03:11:20




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to dave404, 07-23-2012 18:17:46  
For me nothing would be worst then to go through the expense and work of a rebuild and then need to tear it apart again because of a major problem. If it were me I would take the motor to a good machine shop and have them bore it out for the 0.090 sleeves. It does not cost that much considering what it may cost to do it twice.



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TheOldHokie

07-24-2012 10:02:30




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to Mad Farmer, 07-23-2012 18:17:46  
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They make .005 over sleeves for people to fit to worn and/or damaged cylinders. Since you have good clean round bores all at 3.272 with no taper then you may well be right - let us know how it works out.

TOH



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TheOldHokie

07-24-2012 09:18:30




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to gary messenger, 07-23-2012 18:17:46  
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I think you are missing my point. New stock sleeves are too small so why is the block "nominally oversize" by roughly .005? My strong hunch is that at some time in the past the thing was run without sleeves using .083 over pistons - a fairly common practice. If that is the case the block bores where probably honed a bit oversize to fit the pistons at that time and now are not only even larger but far from straight and round. Have you carefully measured out of round and taper on all of the bores? Are you sure you have good straight round holes?

Since you are dealing with a sleeve fitup tolerance of +/- .0005 your are really taking a lot on faith. You "theorize" the OD of a .005 oversize sleeve is 3.273 with a manufacturing tolerance of roughly +/- .0005 but that is not documented anywhere. Heck, the OD and tolerance of a stock sleeve (.040 or .090) is not documented anywhere I have found. That is why I use the term "nominal" whenever I talk about these numbers. Call the vendor of the oversize sleeves and ask for an OD specification with a tolerance - they may or may not know.

Also consider that the shop manual says when fitting .090 sleeves to a .040 engine block you should measure the new sleeves and bore/hone the block to fit each sleeve. Why don't they explicitly state that dimension? They give all sorts of other dimensions and tolerances. Maybe given the multiple sources of manufacture and supply there simply isn't a reliable one and each fitup is a job that requires careful measurement of each individual sleeve and final fitment to the block by the shop doing the work :idea:
Just some food for thought. The oversize sleeves may arrive and fit fine but I still think it's a leap of faith.

TOH

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dave404

07-24-2012 09:50:27




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to TheOldHokie, 07-24-2012 09:18:30  
yes i understand you O.H but im not good at measurements.
the o.d of the .005 is listed here at the tractor parts store of 3.273 >Link

and>Link it is odd every cylinder is 3.272 at the top,middle and bottom, i don't think they would wear all the same so im thinkin someone honed them all the same or something.

i contacted the previous owner and hes a shadetree mechanic also, and got standard sleeves from tsc when he rebuilt it. He also said the ones he removed was loose so a goof up somewhere before he got. He didnt know they were supposed to be tight.

its no telling how many hands its passed thru, but im thinking somewhere, someone honed it for the .005 oversize sleeves and the next owner-owners didnt know it and installed standard sleeves.
Why would a company make .005 sleeves if they were never used by anyone ?

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TheOldHokie

07-24-2012 06:04:12




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to Bruce (VA), 07-23-2012 18:17:46  
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See my original response - I edited it to provide some additionl info.

TOH



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TheOldHokie

07-24-2012 04:24:47




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to soundguy, 07-23-2012 18:17:46  

dave404 said: (quoted from post at 22:01:16 07/23/12) got it figured out.

the block bore is 3.272

so the previous owner used standard size sleeves

i need the .005 oversize sleeves

.040 in. Sleeve .005 in. O/S Dia., 3.273 in

this will give me the .001 i need for a tight fit.


That analysis doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Stock piston bore is 3.1875.

3.1875 + .040 + .040 = 3.2675.

So your stock sleeves should nominally measure 3.2675 at a minimum - not 3.266. The .040 wall sleeves are hard to measure accurately - very easy for them to be out of round when free standing especially if they have been hnadled roughly or banged around. I just measured what appears to be an original factory installed Ford sleeve that was partially driven out of the block - OD at top of it measures 3.2705. One out of that same set measured on the bench is anywhere from 3.265 to 3.274 at various positions around the OD

third party image

How accurate are your measurements of the block bore and sleeves? Did you remove the original sleeves from that engine or was it being run without sleeves? The surest and safest route forward is to take it to a shop and have it bored for .090 wall sleeves. Will cost you about $100 and is well worth it.

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 06:02:06 07/24/12 2 times.

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dave404

07-24-2012 06:54:09




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to TheOldHokie, 07-24-2012 04:24:47  
thanks again O.H. i just called my son who done the measuring. He said the block bore is correct - 3.272 the sleeves measured 3.266-3.267 ,measurements had some slight differences top,bottom, on sleeves. probably wore them some since they were so loose and turning in the bore.

As the .005 oversize sleeves - Outside sleeve diameter is 3.273 inches - .005 larger than original.

Then the sleeves i removed from this engine can't be .005 oversize.
I'm betting the previous owner didnt know it and installed standard sleeves instead of the .005 oversize.

And the bore being 3.272, and the .005 sleeves(3.273), this will give me the .001 needed for the correct fit.
So i need to purchase a set of .005 sleeves or as u suggested, have the block bored for .90 sleeves.

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dave404

07-24-2012 05:40:37




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to TheOldHokie, 07-24-2012 04:24:47  
thanks oldhokie, yes i removed the sleeves and the bore diameter 3.272 is correct

i need to contact the po guy and ask him if he knows.



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dave404

07-23-2012 19:01:16




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 Re: ATF not going help rings .... - measurements taken in reply to dave404, 07-23-2012 18:17:46  
got it figured out.
the block bore is 3.272
so the previous owner used standard size sleeves
i need the .005 oversize sleeves
.040 in. Sleeve .005 in. O/S Dia., 3.273 in

this will give me the .001 i need for a tight fit.



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