8N STARTER PROBLEMS

MAD BRAD · Jun 22, 2011

O I HAVE THE CORRECT STARTER AND SOLENOID
(PIC"S OF OLD AND NEW)NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE STARTER DRIVES, DRIVE ON NEW DOES NOT FULLY RETRACT AND IS MUCH LARGER. SMALL TERMINAL ON SOLENIOD IS OPPOSITE OF OLD ONE. INSTALLED NEW STARTER AND SOLENIOD HOOKED UP BATT CABLE NOTICED
COOKED ELECTRICAL SMELL. SOLENIOD AND STARTER GOT SO HOT COULD NOT TOUCH. BATTERY WAS BOILING DISCONNECTED BATTERY CABLE AND REMOVED STARTER AND SOLENOID. NEW SOLENOID BROKE ON TOP SEE PHOTO.PARTS ARE FOR FORD 8N FRONT MOUNT DIST. SER # 8NI40699 WHICH INDICATES 1948.ANY IDEAS WHAT WENT WRONG??

Bruce (VA) · Jun 22, 2011

First off, please turn off the caps lock. It's very hard to read.

The bendix on the old starter is OEM; the new one isn't. Just put it back; it will retract as soon as you start the tractor.

Did you hook up the solenoid backwards? The little terminal needs to go toward the block.

Look at the solenoid; most new ones say BAT on the battery side.

I have heard of some new solenoids made in The Land of Almost Right being wired backwards. What was your parts source?
50 Tips

MAD BRAD · Jun 22, 2011

the solenoid was installed exactly as the old one came off with the smallest terminal facing OUT.my parts came from Yesterdays Tractor,but I did notice that the parts were made in India

Bruce (VA) · Jun 22, 2011

Interesting; facing the smaller terminal out is usually backwards.

No matter, you need another solenoid. Hook it up w/ the small terminal TOWARD the block.

Does the new one have BAT marked on it?

NAPA has them; p/n Solenoid ECH ST540
50 Tips

MAD BRAD · Jun 22, 2011

I'm glad I can get another solenoid local and not have to wait.No,the new one doesn't have any markings other than S and I on side the small terminal is on,and the small terminal on the old one was S,and the new one is I(see photo).Would a backwards install cause the battery to boil?

JMOR · Jun 23, 2011

(quoted from post at 21:49:12 06/22/11) I'm glad I can get another solenoid local and not have to wait.No,the new one doesn't have any markings other than S and I on side the small terminal is on,and the small terminal on the old one was S,and the new one is I(see photo).Would a backwards install cause the battery to boil?

o. Forward or backwards, the connection between the two large terminals should have remained open, with no current flow in solenoid, cables, starter or from battery. If backwards, the solenoid simply will not activate when you push the neutral safety start button.

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

is your machine still setup to use the thumb switch to activate the solenoid?

boiling battery and hot starter tells me current was flowing, ie.. solenoid was either shorted across the big terminals, or was being activated.

sustained large current flow made the starter hot and cracked the solenoid.

soundguy

MAD BRAD · Jun 23, 2011

There is no switch to the solenoid.Ihave a new one bought this a.m. on the new starter.
This started as a head gasket replacement.In removing the wiring harness,I noticed it was pretty well toast so I replaced it,triple checked to make sure it was correctly installed.
When I bought this tractor,it was wired with a negative ground and the hot lead to the solenoid,and cranked and ran like this for 2 years.I just looked at my diagrams again and all 3 indicate a positive ground!!Now I'm thinking that in replacing the wiring harness,any past mistakes by the previous owners have been corrected,and the tractor should be positive ground.That would also explain the boiling battery.Any thoughts on this?

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

you need to back up and make a new post about this.

all this non oem stuff is a real problem..

hot to start is NOT compatible with the thumb switch OR the oem solenoid.

we really need to know EXACTLY what hardware you have, how you have it wired.. and what charge system you have.

soundguy

JMOR · Jun 23, 2011

I do not know what you mean here:"There is no switch to the solenoid.Ihave a new one bought this a.m. on the new starter."??

"...and the tractor should be positive ground.That would also explain the boiling battery.Any thoughts on this?"

If you have a factory 6v generator & regulator, then the system will work perfectly fine either pos gnd or neg gnd, however, if you have converted to an alternator, that is a different story. What do you have?

MAD BRAD · Jun 23, 2011

O.K.,the wiring harness and starter came from Yesterdays,for early 8N,front mount dist.I installed the harness using the Ford 8N owners manual reprint,also from Yesterdays,and two online guides,all 3 are the same.The solenoid I got at NAPA this a.m. Idid note that the NAPA solenoid is exactly like the old one as far as the position of the small terminal,and was marked with a BATT sticker on one side.When installed,the small terminal faces OUT ,as did the old one.
There is not a thumb switch,turn the key and hit the starter button to start.

JMOR · Jun 23, 2011

(quoted from post at 11:47:19 06/23/11) O.K.,the wiring harness and starter came from Yesterdays,for early 8N,front mount dist.I installed the harness using the Ford 8N owners manual reprint,also from Yesterdays,and two online guides,all 3 are the same.The solenoid I got at NAPA this a.m. Idid note that the NAPA solenoid is exactly like the old one as far as the position of the small terminal,and was marked with a BATT sticker on one side.When installed,the small terminal faces OUT ,as did the old one.
There is not a thumb switch,turn the key and hit the starter button to start.

K, so does it work now....when you push the starter button (with you thumb, index finger, big toe, or ??)?

Too many people count on that "small terminal toward engine" line & while it was true for the original Ford solenoid, it can not be counted on with the variety of replacement part manufacturers in today's world.

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

as has been told to you.. the oem starter solenoids WILL NOT WORK with key to start systems!!!

soundguy

MAD BRAD · Jun 23, 2011

This 8N has ran for 2 years wired as I have described.Perhaps something crossed in the fried wiring it had,I don't know.Now I'm at a loss as to how to proceed.Do I put things back as they were,or reverse to a positive ground?Also,what is a thumb switch and what does it do?

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

positive vs negative ground makes no difference tot he switches, solenoids and starters, so quit swinging that idea around like it's gonna do something for ya.

as tot he wiring. I honestly don't know what you have nor have done.

all I can tell you is the oem N solenoid, requires GROUND on the small 3rd terminal in order to make it activate.

if you are using an automotive style yey switch with a wire to the solenoid, it is sending power.. and that simply won't work.. which tells me the old solenoid you had was an automotive style.. not an oem style.

'thumb' switch referes to the safety interlocked switch on the tranny top.. it won't let you push it down and activate the solenoid when the tranny is in gear... it merely grounds the 3rd termoinal on the oem solenoid.

if i were you.. I'd loose that deathtrap waiting to happen automotive key switch, and install a working interlocked safety swith, and use oem solenoid, wireing and ground polarity to avoid all this confision.

I'd also get a service and owner and parts manual so you have some inkling of a clue of what we are talking about when we refer to a part ..

with the standard wiring on a key-to-start setup, you can start in gear and run yourself or somebody else over!!!

soundguy

JMOR · Jun 23, 2011

(quoted from post at 12:09:21 06/23/11) This 8N has ran for 2 years wired as I have described.Perhaps something crossed in the fried wiring it had,I don't know.Now I'm at a loss as to how to proceed.Do I put things back as they were,or reverse to a positive ground?Also,what is a thumb switch and what does it do?

on't mess with what has been working....just asking for more trouble.......pos/neg ground is NOT related to your starting problems.

What we are calling a thumb switch, neutral start safety switch, start button or ??? is the silver item in this picture next to gear shift with a single wire going to small terminal on the solenoid. When pushed, it provides ground to the small solenoid terminal.

Now why don't you tell us what you are calling a starter switch and describe it & describe how it is wired?

MAD BRAD · Jun 23, 2011

The key switch goes from one terminal on the terminal block,thru the switch,to the other side of the terminal block,wires 16 and 18 in the Ford operators manual.The small terminal goes to the tranny mounted starter switch,whitch goes to ground.And yes,I have the owners manual and service manual.Only two switches are shown,ignition lock and starter switch,8N-3679-B and 8N-11500.I think your thumb switch is the starter switch,as it works as you described,and will not let the tractor start in gear.
If polarity in the system makes no difference,why did the battery boil????

MAD BRAD · Jun 23, 2011

I just had one of those "OH C_ _ P" moments.OEM parts vs. automotive parts.Good point soundguy!
I noticed earlier that the position of the small terminal on the ordered part and the NAPA part was different.NAPA on S and OEM on I.I'm thinking that a previous owner used an automotive solenoid.Installing the OEM solenoid with the small terminal out,as the old one was,would be BACKWARDS.I've removed the NAPA part,crazy glued the OEM back togeather,and installed it small terminal IN on the starter.I have a spare voltage regulator,so I'll install that as well,go to a positive ground as shown in the wiring diagrams,and all should be well.I'm determined that my 8N will live again!!!

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

wow this is getting all confused.

so.. you DO have the thumb starter switch on the tranny housing and it IS hooked up to the solenoid.

when you press it does the starter turn ?

if not, what happens to the battery volts, as viewed on a VOM?

soundguy

MAD BRAD · Jun 23, 2011

The thumb switch and the starter switch 8N-11500 are the same thing.This comes from the Ford Operators Manual #3729-50-M.Wire #32 goes from the starter switch to the small terminal marked I on the solenoid.I just finished installing the new OEM voltage regulator and am charging the battery.As soon as the battery is fully charged,I'll turn the key,hit the switch,and pray it starts!

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

you don't need to school me in part numbers.

there is only 1 thumb switch for the 8N.

post back when you know something new.

soundguy

MAD BRAD · Jun 23, 2011

I've been working on this 8N for months now.I just hooked everything up according to the wiring diagrams and got nothing.I've had it,the first $1900.00 takes it.

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

if you want to get more than 500$ out of it you need to get it running... non runners have no market other than parts and scrap.

soundguy

souNdguy · Jun 23, 2011

nothing? as in the starter won't spin?

if so.. make sure you have the solenoid hooked up correctly...

backwards yeilds nothing.

Bruce (VA) · Jun 23, 2011

Take a day off. Drink a beer.

Then get back on the board & answer all of the questions you've been asked about how it's configured. Plenty of folks here can help you get it running.

But, if you're really tired of fooling w/ it, don't count on $1900 for a non-running N. Like Soundguy said, $500 is more like it.

36 Coupe · Jun 24, 2011

My grand daughter just turned 11.With a minutes insruction she could check out the new solenoid with an ohmmeter and tell us how it is wired.

JMOR · Jun 24, 2011

(quoted from post at 06:40:48 06/24/11) My grand daughter just turned 11.With a minutes insruction she could check out the new solenoid with an ohmmeter and tell us how it is wired.

r, if she didn't have a meter, she could do this: Take solenoid in her sweet little hand, touch small terminal to either battery post, use a piece of wire, wrench, screwdriver or anything that conducts electricity, to connect a large terminal to the other battery post. If it clicks, you have found the big terminal that will be wired to the battery cable (other one goes to starter motor). If no click, then try same procedure with other large terminal, and if it clicks, you have found the big terminal that will be wired to the battery cable (other one goes to starter motor). If you get no click either way, then you either have a bad solenoid OR more likely the wrong type solenoid for your 8N. To verify wrong type, touch small terminal to one battery post and a conductor from solenoid mounting bracket to other battery post....if it clicks, it is wrong type for your 8N.

8N STARTER PROBLEMS

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