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Lift pump check

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Shaun

06-10-2003 21:00:07




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I've read here about checking the pump for leaks and such (which I think mine has). I saw reference to the cover plate on the right. Is that the plate with the dipstick? I also saw mention of running the pto with this off to look for leaks. Am I understanding that correctly? Just want to be sure before popping the wrong plate, and having fluid fly all over.

Thanks!

-shaun




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Lee

06-11-2003 12:26:19




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 Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 21:00:07  
Shaun, Just so ya know, I've had 4 Ns. 2-8Ns,1-9N and one Jubilee. None of them have had hydraulics that'll hold anything heavy in place for more than 30 min. to an hour. Less if the tractor is moving and bouncing around. It doesn't sound to me like you had much wrong by needing to engage the PTO/hyd. pump to keep implements up while you relocate equipment. I keep a bungie hanging from the front of my bush hog to strap up the disconnected drive shaft during transport so that I don't have the blades spinning but can engage the pump/pto shaft to keep the bush hog up running down the road.
Good Luck, Lee

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Shaun

06-11-2003 12:44:54




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 Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Lee, 06-11-2003 12:26:19  
Lee -

Thanks for the added info! Definitely something I needed to hear as it's all sorted out. Looks like I'm going to thick oil and keeping those fingers crossed that it was that simple. Oh, in regard to the bungee... I've got a set of chains (simulating stay chains)that allow me to hold the impement high. I actually made this set from loops, chain, and hooks. Now all I have to do is get to the point where the PTO will get it there... ha, ha.

Thanks!

-shaun

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Lee

06-11-2003 12:51:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-11-2003 12:44:54  
I'll keep my fingers crossed that the heavier oil gets you back in business.
Later, Lee



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ZANE

06-11-2003 05:23:46




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 Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 21:00:07  
The 9N lift has no position control.To maintain the lift at a given position the hand must constantly be on the control lever to continually re adjust. I can fix that for you if you will Email me at wzsherman@aol.com or see the link below.

The most common places to leak on the lift is the piston rings and the pressure relief valve.
In order to determine where the lift is leaking you should remove the right hand inspection plate that holds the dip stick for the lift oil.If oil runs out when this cover is removed it has too much oil in it and letting it run out is ok.

Start the tractor with a load on the lift arms such as a rotary cutter etc. raise the lift and observe inside the lift to see where the oil is leaking down.If the piston rings are leaking their will be a pretty good stream of oil coming out the end of the ram cylinder. If just a few drops this is ok.

Observe the oil in the resorvoir and if you see the oil swirling around the relief valve is probably leaking.It is the gadget that is screwed into the back of the hydralic pump just under the pto shaft.It will be under the oil and feels something like a spark plug.

If before starting the tractor you will put your hand into the oil and locate the relief valve you can reach in and put one finger over the end of the relief valve and determine if it is leaking after the tractor has again been started. DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF PUTING A FINGER IN THE PUMP MECHANISM!!!!

If however you don't see a signifacant leak from the top you can assume that the relief valve is leaking and simply replace it with a new one and thereby prvent the possible loss of a finger or two.

I;ve never tried it but I’ve read that you can drain enough oil from the lift reservoir to uncover the relief valve and see if it is leaking instead of using the obviously dangerous finger feel thing I described.


There could also be a blown gasket somewhere in the upper portion of the lift but if so you will see a lot of oil coming down from the top and then it’s just a case of taking the cover off and finding the culprit.

Be sure to release the control rods from the control valve T on the pump before trying to remove the lift cover. To fail to do so will result in a broken lift control valve stem.
Zane in Alabama.

If you should be having trouble with the lift not going down when the lever is moved to the down position I would suggest that while the inspection plate is off on the side of the lift housing you reach in and manually push the two levers that go into the oil in the reservoir and are connected to the control valve. The control valve sometimes sticks in the up position. If you should find that you can make it go down by pushing toward the front of the tractor internally on the control rods then you should drain the lift and pour about 5 gallons of clean kerosene through the lift with the drain open. It is best to pour it directly into the inspection hole. Let the kerosene that drains out sit for about 15 minutes and pour it through again leaving the portion that is in the bottom of the container to be discarded. This should have the residue in it that may have been causing the control valve to stick when it was carried into the control valve.

You should also inspect the spring that is connected between the front end of the ram cylinder of the lift to the knee portion of the control rods that go from the linkage at the top to the control valve in the bottom of the pump. This spring sometimes looses it tension from age and usage and must have enough tension on it to pull the control valve out when the lever is moved to the down position.


I noticed that you have a tractor with the Ferguson lift system “Ferguson system” which does not incorporate the option of POSITION CONTROL. I have invented an add on device that will give position control with no modification of the original lift or any component of the tractor and thought that you might be interested in seeing the particulars.

See the link below

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Jim

06-11-2003 04:31:21




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 Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 21:00:07  
Shaun;
The hydraulic needs to have some weight on the lift when you check it so you can find the leaks.
The pump will not be pumping if it does not have weight on the lift and if the lift is not in the process of lifting. The oil is shut off and the pump is starved of oil when the lift arms is not in the process of lifting. When the lift arms are all the way up or not moving the pump does not get any oil. In other words the only time the pump actually gets oil to pump is when the lift is calling for oil to move it.
The lift should hold up a heavy implement even when the tractor is shut off. Unless it is leaking.
Tractor supply sells a GL1 mineral oil that It says on the container is equivalent to the Ford original hydraulic oil. Ford motor says the 134c is great to use and they recommend it now, it was not available when these tractors were built.
If I were checking my hydraulic I would use the heaviest implement I could find, or chain the lift down to test for leaks.
Jim

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bg

06-10-2003 21:32:12




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 Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 21:00:07  
Fluid won't fly all over. It may run out of the hole if it is overfilled, but it isn't pressurized inside the sump. The pump runs constantly when the PTO is engaged and bypasses, sort of, when there is no demand for fluid to be pumped. The reason you remove the right side cover(the one with the dipstick) is that the left side has the PTO control on it. You should look for major fluid dripping from above, or extreme turbulence in the sump. Keep your hands out while the machine is running. The fluid pumps up through a tube in the side wall of the sump. That tube can crack or leak, the lift piston or the gasket can leak, or the various pump valves can leak, There may also be cracks in the pump housing or bad valve seats. Looking inside is the preliminary step. You may ultimately have to drop the pump.

What problems are you experiencing with the lift?

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Shaun

06-10-2003 21:45:35




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 Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to bg, 06-10-2003 21:32:12  
Thanks for the info, bg. Well, I thought about taking a look since my lift wouldn't hold after the PTO was disengaged. Well... let me take that back. It would hold "up", but as soon as the tractor would move, it would drop. So, I wanted to get that working properly, but it wasn't urgent... until today. Today I go to use the tractor and I had no lift at all (did when I parked it). BUT, here's the nitty gritty. Last operation, I changed the trans/hyd fluid. It did have water in it and I have no idea what exact fluid the previous owner was running. After reading all about the 134D and 90wt gear oil, and then checking with my local N mechanic who recommended using SAE 30, I did go with the 30 - which I now think is too light and may be part of the current problem or at least showing the symptoms of my problems (internal leaks). Someone else here mentioned some of his other equipment takes SAE 30 / 40 in the trans/hyd. I also read that the 134D also reveals leaks due to how thin it is.

The strange part is that it all worked fine the day I changed it. So in summary, I was going to take a peak and see what's going on inside.

Pointers?

-shaun

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Hi, Shaun...John,PA

06-10-2003 22:24:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 21:45:35  
What bg said is sound. I gaurantee!

About the "weight of the fluid in your hydraulic system, well, let me shed some light, if I may, Sir:

I am not shore what equipment, but I can only talk about the 9N's.

We always used 80 to 90 wt. "gear oil".
Majority of the time, the gear oil was referred to as "mineral oil". The older fellows will understand this terminology, I'm shure.

This new stuff confuses me.

I would recommend that you git rid of the lighter stuff and try some heavier mineral oil.

Even though this might mean more investment, (financial), I think it might be worth while.

About the leaks, I am confuised with your post.


Save your lighter libricant, though. Might be able to use it in your oil cans. The typ[e that you use for oiling hinges, etc. Do not let it go to waste.

Hope this helps/ :})

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Shaun

06-10-2003 22:50:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Hi, Shaun...John,PA, 06-10-2003 22:24:26  
Hey there, John -

Thanks for the info. Yeah... I think that thinner oil did me in. Just too coincidental with the oil change. Only strange part is that the lift did work the day I changed it and the weather temperatures are about the same now as then (only about 10 days ago).

Sorry for any confusion in the post. Here's the scoop:

1. bought tractor - lifted fine while running but with PTO off and tractor moving, the implement would fall. I never could get it to hold "up" unless the PTO was running.

2. changed oil to SAE 30 and all worked well on the day of change

3. went to use today - no lift at all

So, I think another oil change is in order and I'll give the 90 a shot and see if the lift comes back. Either way, I couldn't get it to hold "up" when I bought it so I'm guess I still have something internally wrong.

Oh, does the pump etc. drop out the bottom should I need to go that far?

Thanks!

-shaun

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Dell (WA)

06-10-2003 23:02:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 22:50:55  
Shaun..... ..you do know that unless your PTO is turning (engaged) your hydraulic pump doesn't pump, don't you?. The N's don't have "live hydraulics".

30wt oil in hydro/tranny ain't gonna hold 'nuttin' up. Ford/New Holland now recommends type M2C-134D hydro-tranny oil (its about 60wt). 'course you can use the 60 yo recommended 90wt mineral oil (if you can find it. Some claim GL-1 is ok, I'm not certain. Read the lables. Hydraulic oil is NOT ok, its too thin and doesn't provide proper lubrication for the differential ring gears..... ...Dell

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Shaun

06-10-2003 23:33:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Dell (WA), 06-10-2003 23:02:43  
Thanks, Dell. Yep, I'm aware of the non-live PTO, but SURE wish it was live... ha! I've been told that if I am running the PTO and lift an implement, that the implement should stay up even after shutting the PTO off. Is that correct or is the pump system not "sealed" in a fashion to allow this. I gathered this was correct for transport from field to field. If this is incorrect, maybe my insides are fine and it's only the thin oil.

Thanks for the info on the lubes too. I've read so much about the different weights and the 134D that... well... I guess I'm still as indifferent as before I read it all... ha!

So, what is the difference between 90 gear oil and 90 mineral oil? If the mineral oil is tough to find, is the 90 gear oil OK?

Thanks!

-shaun

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Dell (WA)

06-10-2003 23:53:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 23:33:15  
Shaun..... ...I'm told that good N-Hydaulics will hold a heavy implement up overnite, not that you want to do that for safety reasons. Most N-Owners would claim braggin' rights if it'll hold for an hour. There is some sorta valve sealing thats supposta keep the hydraulics up, but usually its the hydraulic piston rings that start leaking and won't hold things up unless constantly pressurized by keeping the PTO operated hydraulic pump operating. Can be a PITA.

As I said, some claim GL-1 is equivalent to OEM 90wt mineral oil. Me, I use Ford/New Holland spec M2C-134D from my local Kabota dealer $25 for 5 gals. read the lable..... ....Dell

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Tim

06-11-2003 05:09:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Dell (WA), 06-10-2003 23:53:23  
In the last 40 years I have never seen a 8N or 9N that will keep anything very heavy up very long without the pto running. Try140 wt oil it works fine, lets you lift more and holds better. Only drawback is it has to warm up to lower in the winter. We use it in both our N's and still use them to plant cotton with a 2 row planter.



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John,PA

06-10-2003 23:01:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to Shaun, 06-10-2003 22:50:55  
Well, is this an 8N, 2N, or 9N Ford tractor?

When ZANE git awake in the AM, I'm shure that he will shed his opinion on your ploblem. Do like this: Hey ZANE, I have a problem.

When put like this, the hydraulics expert will recognize your post.

So, I hope this will help. Good luck, it is problably a quick fix.

:})



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Shaun

06-10-2003 23:23:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lift pump check in reply to John,PA, 06-10-2003 23:01:52  
It's a 9N (unless I can pencil rub that serial number to tell me differently).

Thanks!

-shaun



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