That "Mechanic to the Stars", what a corker!

My old buddy Norm Sappenfield says the machine work on my 8N engine is almost done, but unfortunately some of the things he said, and did, appear Quite Ominous to me and Portend Possible Problems because this was supposed to be a low-budget rebuild.

Norm milled the head and decked the block, even though I had asked him not to because I am trying to save money. (But WTH do I, a mere mortal, know compared to the "Mechanic to the Stars", anyway?)

He said he had a helluva hard time removing the old sleeves because they were rusted to the block; he wound up having to bore them out; and it was very time consuming. Again, Ominous Indeed.

He said we should hone the cylinders to give them the right texture, which is supposedly unnecessary for the sleeves I bought. When I asked him how much honing would cost, he refused to answer, so I asked him again and he replied, "You're already into it for so much that it doesn't matter". I did not like the sound of that one bit!

Unfortunately Norm, the poor guy, seems to have the terribly mistaken impression that I actually have any money in my bank account! I think a Heavy "Come To Jesus" Meeting will probably take place when he tells me to come pick it up and presents me with the bill, and I tell him that I can't write him a bad check.

My past experience with my old friend Norm is that he can't prove up a detailed invoice because he hates to do the time and activity recordkeeping. I can't really blame him too much for that, because I always hated doing that myself when I was working, but the fact remains that if you can't prove up your invoice, you are simply in no position to insist upon 100% payment.

So, IMHO, let this be a cautionary lesson to you mechanics out there: either maintain accurate and contemporaneous time and activity records for each job, or be prepared to write off, as a cost of doing business, part of your bill when you can't prove up your invoice.

Thoughts?

Sounds like a really good machinist.
Pay up and don't be a cheapskate!
After all there are all sorts of "shade-tree" sorts you could have chosen from.
And you know what that adds up to:
"You can always afford to do things right THE SECOND time around"

If he's everything you've said he is be prepared to pay the man and no WHINING!

No reason for him to risk his reputation by doing a sub-standard job to meet your budget.

If you wanted a half-arsed job at a bargain-basement price there's lots of other shops you could have gone to, I'm sure!

Oh yes, if he can really prove up his invoice I'll pay the entire amount without complaint. After all, I always want to remain friends with Norm. But every story has two sides, and I intend to tell him my side, shall we say.

The real issue is, would an itemized invoice really withstand scrutiny, since it would seem that either too much time or too high an hourly rate would have to be charged in order to justify the total.

"He said he had a helluva hard time removing the old sleeves because they were rusted to the block; he wound up having to bore them out; and it was very time consuming. Again, Ominous Indeed."


I've never seen dry sleeves that WEREN'T rusted into the block. But 8N sleeves with the correct size adapter and a hydraulic press aren't as bad as most. If he's hitting you with an upcharge for doing that I'm not sure I'd trust him.

(quoted from post at 15:15:29 01/26/21) My old buddy Norm Sappenfield says the machine work on my 8N engine is almost done, but unfortunately some of the things he said, and did, appear Quite Ominous to me and Portend Possible Problems because this was supposed to be a low-budget rebuild.

Norm milled the head and decked the block, even though I had asked him not to because I am trying to save money. (But WTH do I, a mere mortal, know compared to the "Mechanic to the Stars", anyway?)

He said he had a helluva hard time removing the old sleeves because they were rusted to the block; he wound up having to bore them out; and it was very time consuming. Again, Ominous Indeed.

He said we should hone the cylinders to give them the right texture, which is supposedly unnecessary for the sleeves I bought. When I asked him how much honing would cost, he refused to answer, so I asked him again and he replied, "You're already into it for so much that it doesn't matter". I did not like the sound of that one bit!

Unfortunately Norm, the poor guy, seems to have the terribly mistaken impression that I actually have any money in my bank account! I think a Heavy "Come To Jesus" Meeting will probably take place when he tells me to come pick it up and presents me with the bill, and I tell him that I can't write him a bad check.

My past experience with my old friend Norm is that he can't prove up a detailed invoice because he hates to do the time and activity recordkeeping. I can't really blame him too much for that, because I always hated doing that myself when I was working, but the fact remains that if you can't prove up your invoice, you are simply in no position to insist upon 100% payment.

So, IMHO, let this be a cautionary lesson to you mechanics out there: either maintain accurate and contemporaneous time and activity records for each job, or be prepared to write off, as a cost of doing business, part of your bill when you can't prove up your invoice.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

f you didn't have an up front number or at least an estimated cost, with room for modifications along the route, with approval, then you do not have a leg to stand on. That is of course just my worthless opinion.

I agree with JMOR, if you didn't get things in writing before you handed it over, you haven't a leg to stand on.

Every experienced builder (machinist) knows exactly what it takes to do the job or they wouldn't be in business very long. And yes there are some things that can come up that may not be able to be predicted, but that warning should be given before the job is started.

X3 with JMOR But, what's with all the crap when you haven't even seen the bill yet. Sounds like your pre-determined to have a fight.

Are you talking about he doing some job that was described in abstract?
Or, are you talking about a situation were you gave him specific work order and job creep set in?

If in abstract, ie: "fix my engine", and he did, you got what you are charged for.

If you gave specifics, ie: "hot tank this engine and remove these sleeves", and he job creeped to run up the bill, then you may have reason to dispute.

I can understand the frustration but your experience does help the rest of us understand the question to ask if we go down the road of letting someone else rebuild the engine.
Thanks for sharing.

Norm may be to old to teach new tricks. Years ago I scratched out invoices I was reluctant to use a puter based invoice program. Once I started and it did take awhile I learned I made more when I detailed my labor on the invoice. The first thing I noticed my customers were impressed with that puter generated white sheet of paper being spit out of a printer : )... When I added each function as separate line items the puter based invoice program made me money I was giving away.
I understand its hard to get a handle on working being done if its combined/wadded up in one job. Its easer to get a grip on when its in its on line item.

Lets use this

REPLACE BATTERY. REPAIR BATTERY CABLES. INSTALL POINTS AND CONDENSER, REBUILD CARBURETOR, INSTALL FUEL FILTER

Labor 2.50 hr $300.00. The first thing the customer sees you charged me $300 to put a set of points in :SHOCK:

If its broke down it can be turned into 4.00 Hr. $480.00. That's probably the true time as you can see it cost you to bundle... I see it as you devaluate your skills when you bundle your time. Does your doctor Bundle are do they make it so hard to chiffer you just pay the bill...

Most of the time when the customer has sticker shock then read what I did they understand why. I feel your pain as I inflect it often its my way are the highway I don't have to do it anymore...

Every time I cut a corner it cost me to save you a few bucks I spec Norm has that down pat... I hear all the time about when my name comes up :Take it to Hobo: "he's to high" :Yes but it will be fixed right the first time you will not have to take it back:

I don't know Norm I spec he's a top gun he did not earn his reputation cutting corners... And I don't think he's gonna change anytime soon...

I once told a Lawyer I worked hard to earn my reputation as the highest place in town I was not going to lose it over a cheap arse Lawyer... : )

Norm may be to old to teach new tricks. Years ago I scratched out invoices I was reluctant to use a puter based invoice program. Once I started and it did take awhile I learned I made more when I detailed my labor on the invoice. The first thing I noticed my customers were impressed with that puter generated white sheet of paper being spit out of a printer : )... When I added each function as separate line items the puter based invoice program made me money I was giving away.
I understand its hard to get a handle on working being done if its combined/wadded up in one job. Its easer to get a grip on when its in its on line item.

Lets use this

REPLACE BATTERY. REPAIR BATTERY CABLES. INSTALL POINTS AND CONDENSER, REBUILD CARBURETOR, INSTALL FUEL FILTER

Labor 2.50 hr $300.00. The first thing the customer sees you charged me $300 to put a set of points in :SHOCK:

If its broke down it can be turned into 4.00 Hr. $480.00. That's probably the true time as you can see it cost you to bundle... I see it as you devaluate your skills when you bundle your time. Does your doctor Bundle are do they make it so hard to chiffer you just pay the bill...

Most of the time when the customer has sticker shock then read what I did they understand why. I feel your pain as I inflect it often its my way are the highway I don't have to do it anymore...

Every time I cut a corner it cost me to save you a few bucks I spec Norm has that down pat... I hear all the time about when my name comes up :Take it to Hobo: "he's to high" :Yes but it will be fixed right the first time you will not have to take it back:

I don't know Norm I spec he's a top gun he did not earn his reputation cutting corners... And I don't think he's gonna change anytime soon...

I once told a Lawyer I worked hard to earn my reputation as the highest place in town I was not going to lose it over a cheap arse Lawyer... : )

Bill, what sort of work did you do to earn your money "when you were working"?

That depends on local law. Moreover, it doesn't seem fair or to make sense to me.

If the customer and mechanic fail to put their agreement in writing, why is the [i:4c18a292c8]mechanic's[/i:4c18a292c8] side of the argument therefore certain to prevail? To be fair, both sides have to be evaluated on their merits or lack thereof. The lack of a writing cuts against the mechanic just as much as it cuts against the customer.

In my state (California) the law (a statute) provides that the mechanic MUST: (1) give a written estimate in advance; (2) advise the customer and obtain his consent before substantially deviating from the prior estimate; and (3) provide a detailed and itemized receipt.

Blackhole49, your point is well taken.

showcrop, you probably already guessed it: I was a lawyer. But please forgive me because I've been retired for a long time, am faithfully attending my Lawyers Anonymous meetings twice a week and I'm taking it one day at a time. Please pray for me (I can't pray for myself because I'm an atheist).

"Man up" and pay the bill, Bill.
And if your assembly and fine tune skills are anywhere as good as Norn's machine skills, you will be purring like a kitten very soon.
That is the outcome you wanted; right?

Sorry Bill, I can't hold off any longer. I do not mean any disrespect, but


Bill, Chill.

this was supposed to be a low-budget rebuild

Click to expand...

No such thing, really.

Norm milled the head and decked the block, even though I had asked him not to because I am trying to save money

Click to expand...

A machinist and/or mechanic needs to be able and stand behind their work. To do that, any body in that position worth their salt is going to do a thorough job so as to give the customer a good thorough product.

He said he had a helluva hard time removing the old sleeves because they were rusted to the block; he wound up having to bore them out

Click to expand...

He said we should hone the cylinders to give them the right texture, which is supposedly unnecessary for the sleeves I bought

Click to expand...

Don't you see what you're doing here? you, a lawyer, are micro managing and second guessing the advice of a skilled and experienced machinist in his shop, that has been doing this for lord knows how many years?

Unfortunately Norm, the poor guy, seems to have the terribly mistaken impression that I actually have any money in my bank account!

Click to expand...

Ummm.... Undertaking probably the biggest repair that can be done to one of these tractors is going to cost money. If you undertook this project without the resources to do so, you can't hold anyone else responsible.

if you can't prove up your invoice, you are simply in no position to insist upon 100% payment

Click to expand...

I'm sure his work will stand for the invoice. If you ever doubted that you shouldn't have proceeded with him.

So, IMHO, let this be a cautionary lesson to you mechanics out there: either maintain accurate and contemporaneous time and activity records for each job, or be prepared to write off, as a cost of doing business, part of your bill when you can't prove up your invoice

Click to expand...

Wow, not even sure where to start with that statement.
Sounds like lawyer talk. And I thought Engineers were hard to do work for.
Lucky for us service providers that the customer doesn't get to determine what the bill should be.

If the customer and mechanic fail to put their agreement in writing, why is the mechanic's side of the argument therefore certain to prevail

Click to expand...

Cause their the one doing the work.

In my state (California) the law (a statute) provides that the mechanic MUST: (1) give a written estimate in advance; (2) advise the customer and obtain his consent before substantially deviating from the prior estimate; and (3) provide a detailed and itemized receipt

Click to expand...

So..... did you get that? If not, why did you still proceed? I don't think you got much to stand on having voluntarily proceeded without receiving that.

Hey how's that ..... I'm not even a lawyer, and heck I don't even usually play one here on YtMag

Sorry, Bill I really don't mean disrespect, just couldn't take it any longer.

"That's the outcome you wanted, right?"

Not really, Harry. Assume, for example, (just as a thought experiment, because I don't know if it really happened) that Norm didn't have the correct adapter to drive out .090" sleeves, so he had to bore them out instead, which was much more time-consuming than driving them out with a hydraulic press. (I had thought Norm would already have the correct adapter because I thought he must have rebuilt at least one 8N engine before, but everyone is telling me that if he had the right adapter he wouldn't have had to bore them out.) Had I known he would bore the old sleeves out at a much higher cost, I would instead have gone to Harbor Freight and bought a hydraulic press (which I need) and bought the correct puck from YT.

My point is, the customer is entitled to control the nature and extent of the rebuild, and I don't want to pay for unnecessary machine work.

(quoted from post at 13:15:29 01/26/21) My old buddy Norm Sappenfield says the machine work on my 8N engine is almost done, but unfortunately some of the things he said, and did, appear Quite Ominous to me and Portend Possible Problems because this was supposed to be a low-budget rebuild.

Norm milled the head and decked the block, even though I had asked him not to because I am trying to save money. (But WTH do I, a mere mortal, know compared to the "Mechanic to the Stars", anyway?)

He said he had a helluva hard time removing the old sleeves because they were rusted to the block; he wound up having to bore them out; and it was very time consuming. Again, Ominous Indeed.

He said we should hone the cylinders to give them the right texture, which is supposedly unnecessary for the sleeves I bought. When I asked him how much honing would cost, he refused to answer, so I asked him again and he replied, "You're already into it for so much that it doesn't matter". I did not like the sound of that one bit!

Unfortunately Norm, the poor guy, seems to have the terribly mistaken impression that I actually have any money in my bank account! I think a Heavy "Come To Jesus" Meeting will probably take place when he tells me to come pick it up and presents me with the bill, and I tell him that I can't write him a bad check.

My past experience with my old friend Norm is that he can't prove up a detailed invoice because he hates to do the time and activity recordkeeping. I can't really blame him too much for that, because I always hated doing that myself when I was working, but the fact remains that if you can't prove up your invoice, you are simply in no position to insist upon 100% payment.

So, IMHO, let this be a cautionary lesson to you mechanics out there: either maintain accurate and contemporaneous time and activity records for each job, or be prepared to write off, as a cost of doing business, part of your bill when you can't prove up your invoice.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Never do business with a good old buddy or relative!! no matter what you will lose!

[i:c42d6282a6]"A machinist and/or mechanic needs to be able and stand behind their work. To do that, any body in that position worth their salt is going to do a thorough job so as to give the customer a good thorough product."[/i:c42d6282a6]

That would be true only if the machinist was building the engine. Since I will be assembling it myself, Norm's reputation is not involved.

[i:c42d6282a6]"you, a lawyer, are micro managing and second guessing the advice of a skilled and experienced machinist in his shop, that has been doing this for lord knows how many years?"[/i:c42d6282a6]

The customer gets to control the nature and extent of the job because he's the one who's paying. If the mechanic doesn't like that, he should refuse the job at the outset. What you are saying would let the mechanic totally ignore and override the customer's instructions.

[i:c42d6282a6]"Undertaking probably the biggest repair that can be done to one of these tractors is going to cost money. If you undertook this project without the resources to do so, you can't hold anyone else responsible."
[/i:c42d6282a6]
But I never requested the repairs you are referring to. Does the mechanic have the right to ignore my instructions? Maybe it would be easier if I just hand my wallet over to him and let him take as much cash as he wants?

[i:c42d6282a6]"I'm sure his work will stand for the invoice."
[/i:c42d6282a6]
As I stated previously, if it does I will pay the entire amount without complaint.

[i:c42d6282a6]"...why is the mechanic's side of the argument therefore certain to prevail? Cause their the one doing the work."
[/i:c42d6282a6]
That makes no sense whatsoever. It is tantamount to arguing that the customer has no rights under the contract, only the obligation to pay.

[i:c42d6282a6]"So..... did you get that (written estimate)? If not, why did you still proceed? I don't think you got much to stand on having voluntarily proceeded without receiving that."

[/i:c42d6282a6]Norm was not in his shop when I dropped off the engine. I did ask for a written estimate, but never got one. The next time I heard from Norm, he called me to come over to his shop to take a look. Then I found out that he had done a lot of work that I had not requested, and when I asked him how much the various un-requested items cost, he made quite a point of refusing to answer.

I don't have to ask other people to obey the law; they are supposed to do it voluntarily. You can't shift the blame for the legal violation to me.

Looks like you got old Norm by the balls... I read post from shop owners in kalafornia I know their laws are TUFF on shop owners... I read from then get the damm work order SINGNED...

In NC you can wave your rights my mouth over the phone are whatever, I always thought that would be a hard one to enforce. Let the court decide are what ever gubberment outfit handles it...

Very few know the law this hangs in my shop but you have to look around for it.






One you don't have to look for.

(quoted from post at 14:36:55 01/29/21)
Looks like you got old Norm by the balls... I read post from shop owners in kalafornia I know their laws are TUFF on shop owners... I read from then get the damm work order SINGNED...

In NC you can wave your rights my mouth over the phone are whatever, I always thought that would be a hard one to enforce. Let the court decide are what ever gubberment outfit handles it...

Very few know the law this hangs in my shop but you have to look around for it.

One you don't have to look for.

Click to expand...

obo, going back to one of Bill's earlier posts, I pulled this out and maybe it will clear things up. " Please pray for me (I can't pray for myself because I'm an atheist)."
:roll:
or not!

IMHO it's <pick your adjective> to call someone out publicly if there is no proof they deserve it.

Such speculation is inflammatory and non-productive.

Bill, you need to go talk with Norm. Period.

(quoted from post at 17:19:00 01/29/21) IMHO it's <pick your adjective> to call someone out publicly if there is no proof they deserve it.

Such speculation is inflammatory and non-productive.

Bill, you need to go talk with Norm. Period.

Click to expand...

Hunk, well said.

Bill, You say "My old buddy Norm Sappenfield" and then at the same time you call him a "Corker". Wondering if he has seen this post yet, I'm thinking your bill is going out of site.

(quoted from post at 20:19:00 01/29/21) IMHO it's <pick your adjective> to call someone out publicly if there is no proof they deserve it.

Such speculation is inflammatory and non-productive.

Bill, you need to go talk with Norm. Period.

Click to expand...

say, not to worry, it will maybe come in under $5,000-$6,000. :twisted:

https://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/nor...guy-still-making-souped-up-engines-at-age-84/

(quoted from post at 13:19:04 01/30/21)
https://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/nor...guy-still-making-souped-up-engines-at-age-84/

Click to expand...

Wow, where's the "like" button!!

Not a fellow I would take an engine to, if I thought I was going get away doing a patch job "overhaul". Or I would have said thanks, paid, loaded it up, and taken it away as soon as the hot tanking was done. Ok he didn't give you a written estimate, but you were aware of the law. Did you ask him for an estimate and he refuse? I can't see blaming Norm for where you are at. It seems like you had opportunities to say "Thanks Norm, I'll take it from here", but you went along with it; Implied Consent?. JMHO

"No good deed goes unpunished."

Norm and I decided to emulate the constipated mathematician, and worked it out with a pencil.

He did nice work and didn't charge me a complete arm and a leg, so I did not think it was necessary to make him itemize the invoice for the transaction, since clearly he didn't want to. I'm sure he has more productive things to do. He said he wanted to charge me a reasonable amount because I was an old customer but, due to lack of communication (messed up by nnalert-19), for awhile there I thought he had me confused with a fat-walleted movie star!

He fitted the pistons individually to the cylinders, marked the piston boxes to let me know where each one is supposed to go, and he assembled the entire valve train.

I hope this will be a sweet-running engine. OF COURSE I am going to over-restore it by painting it BRIGHT red.

Norm really is my old buddy, and I didn't mean to say anything bad about him. He's just a character; that's all that "corker" means. When you get to be 93, you'll probably be a corker, too.

And please pray for my forgiveness for being an atheist ex-shyster.

(quoted from post at 14:32:32 02/04/21) Norm and I decided to emulate the constipated mathematician, and worked it out with a pencil.

Norm really is my old buddy, and I didn't mean to say anything bad about him. He's just a character; that's all that "corker" means. When you get to be 93, you'll probably be a corker, too.

And please pray for my forgiveness for being an atheist ex-shyster.

Click to expand...

Happy to hear you worked it out and are happy. I am starting to think you are as much a "character" as Norm might be. It looks like your friendship survived.
And sorry I have better things to pray for.

(quoted from post at 14:40:23 01/29/21) Sorry Bill, I can't hold off any longer. I do not mean any disrespect, but


Bill, Chill.

this was supposed to be a low-budget rebuild

Click to expand...

No such thing, really.

Norm milled the head and decked the block, even though I had asked him not to because I am trying to save money

Click to expand...

A machinist and/or mechanic needs to be able and stand behind their work. To do that, any body in that position worth their salt is going to do a thorough job so as to give the customer a good thorough product.

He said he had a helluva hard time removing the old sleeves because they were rusted to the block; he wound up having to bore them out

Click to expand...

He said we should hone the cylinders to give them the right texture, which is supposedly unnecessary for the sleeves I bought

Click to expand...

Don't you see what you're doing here? you, a lawyer, are micro managing and second guessing the advice of a skilled and experienced machinist in his shop, that has been doing this for lord knows how many years?

Unfortunately Norm, the poor guy, seems to have the terribly mistaken impression that I actually have any money in my bank account!

Click to expand...

Ummm.... Undertaking probably the biggest repair that can be done to one of these tractors is going to cost money. If you undertook this project without the resources to do so, you can't hold anyone else responsible.

if you can't prove up your invoice, you are simply in no position to insist upon 100% payment

Click to expand...

I'm sure his work will stand for the invoice. If you ever doubted that you shouldn't have proceeded with him.

So, IMHO, let this be a cautionary lesson to you mechanics out there: either maintain accurate and contemporaneous time and activity records for each job, or be prepared to write off, as a cost of doing business, part of your bill when you can't prove up your invoice

Click to expand...

Wow, not even sure where to start with that statement.
Sounds like lawyer talk. And I thought Engineers were hard to do work for.
Lucky for us service providers that the customer doesn't get to determine what the bill should be.

If the customer and mechanic fail to put their agreement in writing, why is the mechanic's side of the argument therefore certain to prevail

Click to expand...

Cause their the one doing the work.

In my state (California) the law (a statute) provides that the mechanic MUST: (1) give a written estimate in advance; (2) advise the customer and obtain his consent before substantially deviating from the prior estimate; and (3) provide a detailed and itemized receipt

Click to expand...

So..... did you get that? If not, why did you still proceed? I don't think you got much to stand on having voluntarily proceeded without receiving that.

Hey how's that ..... I'm not even a lawyer, and heck I don't even usually play one here on YtMag

Sorry, Bill I really don't mean disrespect, just couldn't take it any longer.

Click to expand...

I agree with everything you said. But, the guy doing the work knew the owner didn't want to spend big money on the job.

So, to my thinking, he should have turned down the job unless he had the explicit go ahead to do whatever he perceived needed to be done.

All I've got to say is you should be glad you have a friend like Norm Sappenfield. We should all be so lucky! After reading this whole thing, I can see you wrote it with "tongue in cheek" and are truly blessed to have your work done by such a notable Mechanic.
The work is probably worth twice the price no matter what it cost.

I got the engine back together and it runs well. The oil pressure came up immediately, and it idles much more smoothly and quietly that it did before, with no popping or backfiring from bad valves like it used to have. And I guess I'm going to have to find some other way to fog the mosquitos around here because it no longer smokes.

When I assembled the engine I measured about .005" of piston-to-cylinder clearance and the ring end gaps were .022". (Norm had nothing to do with this; this is how the supplied parts fit out of the box.) That seems too loose to me, but what do I know? It's not making any noises and seems to have excellent compression. I asked Norm what he thought about it, and he replied that it would be pretty loose for a car engine, but maybe tractor engines are supposed to have clearances like that; he wasn't sure. So what do you guys think about that piston clearance, and that ring end gap on a tractor motor?