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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Recessed sleeves

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Flyboy 49

02-19-2021 13:24:27




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I am rebuilding my 8N engine block and my machine shop installed TISCO .040 sleeves into the block. The sleeves are recessed into the block by .035 inch on three and one at .048. I measured the flange lip and its .040 thick. The old sleeves flanges are .052. I think they were flush with the top of the block before I removed them. They must have not been seated in the counterbore because the counterbore is about .085. I am concerned that the sleeve will move in the block an cause major damage to the engine. What are my options? Bore the block to fit 090 sleeves? Leave it as is?

I have check with other suppliers of the sleeves and all of the .040 sleeve have only .040 thick flanges. The .090 sleeves have a .061 thick flange. If I bore out for .090 sleeves will the flange diameter go into the valve seat area?

Lot's of questions but no solutions yet. I need your help!

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TheOldHokie

02-21-2021 13:16:56




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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You have choice to make. You can trust the interference with some Loctite for backup or bore it for the larger sleeves. Its not "right" and I would bore it. Probably no more than $200 - I spend more than that in a week at the golf course :D
TOH



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Ken(Ark)

02-20-2021 16:04:37




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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What is the height of the flange . You are .035 - .048 too deep . If the thick wall sleeves are also .048 + taller then your current sleeves you are Ok .

Could be overthinking as most anything will probably work OK , as in just using loctice on what you have . You are probably not going to use it for 400 hrs this spring to plant crops to make a living .

Another route which is still not optimal is to have the machine shop bore and use an automotive sleeve . No counter bore needed , the machine shop will like that . Of course it limits the block to this use and maybe a rebuild with .040 over pistons in about 40 years when it is ready for a rebuild . I have a block with automotive sleeves which I have bored to use the oversized pistons . I doubt I will ever need to mess with it again . 3.188 I.D. x .125 wall = 3.438 O.D.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Melling/689/CSL205/10002/-1

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Flyboy 49

02-21-2021 13:07:37




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Ken(Ark), 02-20-2021 16:04:37  
I placed the new head gasket on the block and it does not cover the flange on the sleeves. Therefore the sleeve is relying on the interference fit to hold the sleeve in place. If so the fact the sleeve is below the surface should not be an issue. Any input???

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TheOldHokie

02-20-2021 14:53:25




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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Got to think like a machinist: "Crap Too small and angled to shim!! So I will bore a little bigger and sleeve it". :shock:
TOH



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TheOldHokie

02-20-2021 12:09:56




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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Yes and yes. I just measured the diameter of the flange on an.040 sleeve - 3.375/3.380 give or take few thousandths. The OD of a .090 wall sleeve is 3.367 so boring the block will obliterate all but .010 of the old counterbore. Then cutt the new counterbore to match the flange height on the new sleeves with whatever protrusion you want. Normal practice would be to install the sleeves high and then come back with a counerboring bar to trim the tops to rhe exact deck height you want. Machinists dont like to be told how to do their jobs so just clearly and explicitly give them the deck height you want and leave the process to them.
Or glue them in flush and wath the flanges burn off which is what the .040 sleeves always do anyway :twisted:
TOH

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Flyboy 49

02-20-2021 12:32:13




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to TheOldHokie, 02-20-2021 12:09:56  
I did get the measurements for the .090 sleeves, Flange dia. 3.4075, Flange width .061 OD 3.368. The .040 sleeve Flange dia. 3.3625 Flange width .040 OD 3.269. The difference of the .040 sleeve flange dia. 3.3625 and the OD of the .090 sleeve 3.368 is .0006. This should clean out the error with the old counterbore for the flange. Note: the counterbore does have an angle at the bottom edge making a shim more difficult on the .040 sleeve.

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Den N Ms

02-20-2021 11:35:57




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
Flyboy,You might try giving these folks a call.Ag kits have some but I don't think any small enough.https://www.agkits.com/sleeve-liner-shims.aspx

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Ken(Ark)

02-20-2021 10:25:10




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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Can somebody post the thickness of the lip on new .090 sleeves to help this guy out .
If the lip is not tall enough then new sleeves and the cost of boring the block is going to hurt .



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Flyboy 49

02-20-2021 10:17:02




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
I looked into shims early on and found none for these sleeves, talked to a lot of supplier with no luck. That would be the simple solution. The more I think about it the proper fix is to bore the block for .090 sleeves. Just more money but peace of mind. :cry:



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weirddeere

02-20-2021 11:04:42




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-20-2021 10:17:02  
Would it be possible to get a machine shop to MAKE you shims for the sleeves? Not sure how the cost would compare but I'd think it'd be cheaper then paying for a rebore etc

Brandon



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John Deere D

02-20-2021 10:08:45




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
I would be scouring the internet for a supplier of SHIMS...
As between the liner lip and the counter bore.......

All the best.
Bob...



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Den N Ms

02-20-2021 09:13:28




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
Flyboy 49,I would think about using shims of proper thickness under the sleeves to bring them up to like .001 protrusion above the deck.Shims are used on a lot of wet sleeves on gas and especially diesel engines if sleeve protrusion is not correct.Just some good measurements need to be taken before installing them.



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Ken(Ark)

02-20-2021 06:21:37




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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Yes I would check the thickness of the .090 sleeve flange . Shims or ??? may work . I would be concerned with heat transfer especially between the sleeve and exhaust seat area . If thin sleeves were glued into place with a lip that has a .050 gap underneath it it may erode quickly or create a hot spot for pre detonation .
Decking the block is an option but probably not a good one at .050 . They do make head shims or the head could be relieved , but again not a good option there .

I am not a qualified machinist , just food for thought .

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jimtrs

02-20-2021 05:19:02




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
Sleeves need to stand proud of the deck. There are specs for this. Not sure off hand what they are for you but something like .001 -- .003, or .003 -- .006, something like that. This assures that the cylinder head with the gasket holds the sleeves in their position. With the top of you sleeve below the deck, the sleeve can travel upwards to the cylinder head. Then it will travel downwards till the lip hits the counter bore, eventually breaking the lip. At some point enough of the lip breaks off and allows the sleeve to drop too low, coming in contact with either the connecting rod on the down stroke or the crankshaft. When this happens, it ain't pretty. Keep in mind it sounds like all your sleeves are a problem so you have this problem times 4.

This should have been addressed when the first sleeve was put in and seen to be too low. Your not that far past that step compared to where you will be later. While it is never fun to redo work that's already been done, my experience is that it is always easier and less work than redoing it later. I mean the engine is out, its not completely assembled. Even if it was, the risk of damage to the rebuilt engine is no way worth it. You've gone this far, to rebuild you engine, why continue with this major point being out of spec?? IMHO it's unacceptable.

If the lips are flat on the underside a machine shop could make shims to go under them, but I think the .040 lips are tapered. I've seen blocks bored to make a lip on the bottom, to press a custom sleeve up against, then deck the top and sleeves flat. These were all work arounds to a problem. Your best option is to bore and counter bore for .090 sleeves. Talk to a qualified machine shop and get their opinion.

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Ken(Ark)

02-19-2021 18:22:43




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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Check the fire ring on the head gasket and see where it seats . I remember reading the topic of sleeve height . The wisdom of John Smith was the book says the sleeves should be .001 proud to properly crush the gasket ring but it was not that critical and having a block and sleeves decked to .000 together was OK . .020 to .030 short could be a problem ?

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TheOldHokie

02-19-2021 16:42:24




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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Just remember the TDS says fixture time on Loctite 680 is 4 minutes. So once you start to press them back in don't stop until they are fully seated. If the phone rings or the wife calls you don't answer :lol:
TOH



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Flyboy 49

02-19-2021 16:09:41




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
TOH,

Thanks again, I think I will Loctite them in. I have put so much money into this engine (first block was cracked, crank needed major work) and this will be my last rebuild on this tractor. :cry:



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TheOldHokie

02-19-2021 15:33:53




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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I would push them up an inch or so, put a band of Loctite 680 around the top of the sleeve and bottom of the bore, and fully reseat them. Wipe off the excess that squeegees out and let them cure 24 hours at room temperature before installing pistons. Thats roughly 18 square inches of 4 KSI anaerobic adhesive. I would not expect them to move in service but you may have difficulty getting them out next rebuild 🙄
TOH

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Flyboy 49

02-19-2021 15:20:11




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
I had pressed out the old sleeves and took the block to the machine shop to replace the exhaust valve seats and grind the valve seats. Since the block was there I asked them to install the new sleeves which I supplied them. I pressed out one of the new sleeves they installed and inspected the counterbore. It appear they did not alter the counterbore, just pressed the new sleeves in. The problem appears that the counterbores may have been bored deeper in the past. The old sleeves I pressed out were most likely not seated in the counterbore. No fault of the machine shop.
TOH suggests use Loctite 640 Sleeve Retainer on the new sleeves .Question is to press them level with the top of the block or seat them in the counterbore?

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Steve A W

02-19-2021 14:57:52




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
Did you check with the machine shop?
If they didn't do the job right shouldn't
they make it right?



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TheOldHokie

02-19-2021 13:49:33




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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I cant really help with the question of using what you have. But I can say if it were mine and I decided to use them they would get a dose of Loctite High Strength sleve retainer and I would sleep pretty good.

You can rebore the engine for .090 sleeves without issue and that is what I would have done from the GitGo along with align hone and new oil pump with 3/4 inch pumping gears. Both of those design changes were significant improvements.

TOH

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Flyboy 49

02-19-2021 14:30:45




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to TheOldHokie, 02-19-2021 13:49:33  
TOH,
Thanks for your feedback. If I go with pressing out the new sleeves and applying Loctite to the sleeves, do I press them level with the deck or seat them in the block?



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TheOldHokie

02-19-2021 13:49:05




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 Re: Recessed sleeves in reply to Flyboy 49, 02-19-2021 13:24:27  
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I cant really help with the question of using what you have. But I can say if it were mine and I decided to use them they would get a dose of Loctite High Strength sleve retainer and I would sleep pretty good.

You can rebore the engine for .090 sleeves without issue and that is what I would have done from the GitGo along with align hone and new oil pump with 3/4 inch pumping gears. Both of those design changes were significant improvements.

TOH

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