Need direction

Pattyboy

Member
1948 12 volt 8N will turn over but wont fire/start!! I know you gentlemen have covered this issues in many many posts...i need direction.
I did a complete Engine, Hydraulic pump, Top lift and PTO Shaft rebuild on my 8N. Just to state the obvious this is front mount dist.
It has been converted to 12 volt in the past and has a Sherman step up transmission. 2 days ago the assembly was completed.
The 48N has new..12 volt coil(not internally resisted),distributor cap with plugs and wires but the distributor had a Petronix electronic ignition that was in it upon purchase, new 12 volt battery,1 wire Delco ALT, 2 wire/post ignition, new ring gear on fly, 3 post 6 volt solenoid,all the wiring is new and new connections assembled by me to meet specs of JMOR's wiring diagram for the parts i have installed, ammeter gauge( not hooked up), rebuilt carb & gov.
I have used this site for many steps along the way along with the manuals and help from experienced gentlemen. There is a lot more topics to cover as we know and many questions of motor assembly and everything else that you all have covered with others.
OK 3 things that i know i need to complete...
1. I do not have a ballast resistor installed yet. Has not arrived..IGN/BAT straight to coil. I will not run it this way!
2. Can not find clarification on ELI adjustments or anything that might pertain to it being the culprit but the two tangs matched up on the cam and whole unit is how it should be assembled
3. Currently snowed in and do not have ability for compression testing.
But..Sufficient fuel to Carb( fuel out of drain plug, checked float clearance and needle is not sticking and all that jazz)
Spark on all 4 plugs ( blue, jump 1/4 in )
Battery is charged/ full
Sediment is 2 turns open with tank half full
Firing order 1243 which on the dist cap it is labeled even tried swapping 4 and 3
Battery volts are 12.6 and 12.4 at coil
Trying not to ramble but many hours of homework, passion and attention to detail into this just like most of you..thank you for reading and any responses.
also...tried starting fluid into carb, air clear has not been on it, minimal choke and change spark plugs if they get to wet.
i will add my wire setup as it is..again without ballast resistor..or ammeter.
i understand that 1 diagram would be good and done but..combining these 2 covers my parts. i have it wired up as the sketch shows
Thank you

cvphoto77221.jpg


cvphoto77222.jpg


cvphoto77224.jpg
 
With plugs out do the finger in the hole compression test to be sure all cyls have compression. If the plugs are getting wet yet you have good spark is the spark there at the right time?
 
(quoted from post at 16:57:38 02/14/21) With plugs out do the finger in the hole compression test to be sure all cyls have compression. If the plugs are getting wet yet you have good spark is the spark there at the right time?
re you sure timing marks were aligned as shown?
3DG6HNr.jpg
 
If you have compression and spark at plugs, I would clean or replace plugs , keep gas turned off & try starting on ether/starting fluid or propane. Thinking plugs may be contaminated by flooding.
 
Compression on all 4 cylinders are pegged
out at 90 PSI and spark. Spraying starter
fluid into carb and nothing. Backfire
obviously if choked. Little back pressure
tho with my palm and it gets close. Thank
you
 
Pattyboy,Check your firing order again!! 1 2 4 3 Be sure you are going counter clock wise looking at the dist from the front.
 
Thank you.
The distributor cover is labeled as such
1 3
2 4...which im sure you know.
I have them wired the way it shows there.
I have also switched 3 and 4 with one another before several times but no progression sir.
Could you help me with corresponding issue?
I have been so focused on fuel, spark, wiring, ohms and all that..i have no oil pressure on gauge( which i know needs to be replaced) I put about 2.5 oz of 90w gear oil into oil pressure relief valve but still have oil in any of the lines or filter housing. Dipstick in is safe op range
Swapped #3 plug to #4 and vise versa on the distributor cap .
Thank you
 
Pattyboy,The way I prime the oil pump is remove the line from the oil pressure gauge and with a piece of vacuum hooked to itthen use a pump up garden sprayer -pump oil can-or even a old time ketchup bottle with engine oil to other end of the hose squirt in 3 or 4 bottles of oil in the hose.That will fill the oil galley ,prime the pump and lube the crank and rod bearings.Hook line back up to the gauge ,crank the engine over and watch for oil pressure.You may have to take two shots,but it always works for me the first time.Don't run your engine with out oil pressure as it can damage your bearings and crank!
 
Pattyboy,I went back and re read your posts,You say,Yes sir.Timing marks were aligned.
Replaced original cam gear due to missing 2 teeth
There has been a few New camshaft gears that have had the timing marks on the cam gear marked in the wrong place.I hope you don't have one of them.If so the camshaft timing will be off.
Did you use resister spark plug wires or solid core wires?
 
Yes sir. Will do and thank again.
Do you believe swapping 3 and 4 wires on
cap is correct? On here I have heard
both,but leaving it riiged up as marked
more often.
 
(quoted from post at 11:38:39 02/15/21) Yes sir. Will do and thank again.
Do you believe swapping 3 and 4 wires on
cap is correct? On here I have heard
both,but leaving it riiged up as marked
more often.
he diagram of mine that you initially posted shows the distributor cap/plug wires correctly.
 
Den I purchased original type wires from 47
with copper boots and rather durable
protective coating in my opion. Solid core
I believe sir.
cvphoto77600.jpg

These are them.
 
Pattyboy,Your electronic ignition must have resister plug wires to keep from burning up the pickup module .It could even cause some trouble starting from EI.
 
(quoted from post at 12:29:47 02/15/21) Pattyboy,Your electronic ignition must have resister plug wires to keep from burning up the pickup module .It could even cause some trouble starting from EI.
will maybe second that. I say maybe, because Pertronix went for a decade or two or more before they started asking for suppression wires, on the same ignition products. This means there are a "boat load" out there running just fine with metal wires.
 
(quoted from post at 09:56:08 02/15/21)
(quoted from post at 12:29:47 02/15/21) Pattyboy,Your electronic ignition must have resister plug wires to keep from burning up the pickup module .It could even cause some trouble starting from EI.
will maybe second that. I say maybe, because Pertronix went for a decade or two or more before they started asking for suppression wires, on the same ignition products. This means there are a "boat load" out there running just fine with metal wires.

JMor, I agree with you, I did several years ago when they first came out and as far as I know they are still running.
 
Perfect. I appreciate the both of you this
morning for your time and passing down the
knowledge. I'll swap out the wires, prime
through the oil tube,double check order
with new wire install.

Dem, just crank it over with spark when
anticipating oil pressure? Or just turn it
over?


JMOR, any wiring advice for current
situation and please consolidate my current
diagrams if you would not mind sir.
1 wire delco remy ( pigtailed as shown)
with the additional wire from the Petronix
distributor.
 
(quoted from post at 13:20:17 02/15/21) Perfect. I appreciate the both of you this
morning for your time and passing down the
knowledge. I'll swap out the wires, prime
through the oil tube,double check order
with new wire install.

Dem, just crank it over with spark when
anticipating oil pressure? Or just turn it
over?


JMOR, any wiring advice for current
situation and please consolidate my current
diagrams if you would not mind sir.
1 wire delco remy ( pigtailed as shown)
with the additional wire from the Petronix
distributor.
did dozen + diagrams over the years for various folks who requested different things/connection wise. Some I don't recommend, such as the one you initially posted , because it has ammeter wired to indicate ONLY alternator output, thus it will never show a battery drain. I prefer a "NET" reading ammeter connection (Ford used NET reading originally), which shows the net current into or out of battery. + if battery receiving current from alternator and - if battery delivering current to loads. Current in/out of battery, when fully charged and running at speed will be virtually zero on ammeter as the alternator will be supplying load current & battery does not need further charge current. That is this diagram:
ZhxBqzc.jpg
 
I understand. Thank you JOMR
Alternator to Ballast is from BAT terminal
or like with mine the 1 terminal pigtailed
wire ran?
Gauge wire specifications on this diagram
please kind sir then I will be on my way.
 
(quoted from post at 13:57:10 02/15/21) I understand. Thank you JOMR
Alternator to Ballast is from BAT terminal
or like with mine the 1 terminal pigtailed
wire ran?
Gauge wire specifications on this diagram
please kind sir then I will be on my way.
ellow wires connecting battery, ammeter & alternator 12 GA and all other (including yellow to switches) can be 16GA or larger if you like.

I don't know what you are saying with, "Alternator to Ballast is from BAT terminal or like with mine the 1 terminal pigtailed
wire ran?".???
 
Nevermind sir. I understand and apologize
for the confusion.
Thank you again for your help guys.

Stevie,
Thank you I will check the distributor
tangs again. Also if these steps prove
unsuccessful I will pop timing cover and
inspect timing mark orientation and gears.
 
Pattyboy,The front mount distributor only goes on one way,if it is bolted up 180% off it now has a broken housing.
The cam shaft timing can be checked without removing the front cover by checking valve rock on #4 cylinder.If you want to check it I will try and explain it to you.
 
Yes sir I know the dist goes only one way.I
was being polite. The flanges will not mate
180 off like you said I unless something is
seriously wrong. It is either flush with
the face of the motor or not especially
with new cam gear.
Den of course. Please go ahead.
 
PattyboyI found a description of how to find the rock in the archives by JMOR with a video.
It is the bottom post with video at the bottom
https://imgur.com/XlalKGS
The Rock
 
Pattyboy ,You can view the #4 valves by taking the rear valve cover off and not pull the head.Same with #1 valves closed to find compression stroke,then find #1 TDC on the flywheel timing mark.
 
Den, I found TDC on #1 cylinder after doing
the valve and all that. On compression
stroke #1 both intake and exhaust were
closed and since lapping i ensured with no-
go feeler gauge as well acknowledging
intake and exhaust valves in proper
movements.. then installed distributer.
Also one of the fun parts of the rebuild
was installing new ring gear onbthe
flywheel on this 48. There was no timing
marks sir. I've heard some have them in
later 8n's.
Trust me when I say that with this tractor
I have inspected everything because their
were mods and apparatuses from different
owners that raise question of what else is
going to be a surprise. Also this is a
front mount distributor i believe those
marks are for side mounted 8ns
 
Pattyboy, you can find TDC with a piece of 10 Ga.copper wire bent in a J shape down #1 plug hole to reach over some to the center hit the piston top and under the head then feel while moving the crankshaft forward till it stops and put a mark on the crank pulley to be aligned with another mark or pointer of some kind on the front cover. Then hold the wire in place and turn the crank the other way till it stops again.Them mark the pulley again with the mark on the front cover.TDC will be exactly half way between the two marks on the pulley.
You may need someone to help hold the wire in place in the plug hole with out moving the wire till the crank is turned back. Remember both valves will be colsed when the piston is traveling up on compression stroke.
 
(quoted from post at 19:29:18 02/15/21) Den, I found TDC on #1 cylinder after doing
the valve and all that. On compression
stroke #1 both intake and exhaust were
closed and since lapping i ensured with no-
go feeler gauge as well acknowledging
intake and exhaust valves in proper
movements.. then installed distributer.
Also one of the fun parts of the rebuild
was installing new ring gear onbthe
flywheel on this 48. There was no timing
marks sir. I've heard some have them in
later 8n's.
Trust me when I say that with this tractor
I have inspected everything because their
were mods and apparatuses from different
owners that raise question of what else is
going to be a surprise. Also this is a
front mount distributor i believe those
marks are for side mounted 8ns
elatively[/u] sure that key way up (12o'clock) aligns with #1 and #4 at TDC. And distributor rotor pointing to #1 or #4 wire connection towers, depending on valves closed on #1 or #2. Someone can probably dispute or remove my "relatively" sure. :)
 
Right on gentleman. I'm going start with
acquiring good oil pressure then use all
this knowledge and advice to get this 48
back to work. Appreciate it.
 
(quoted from post at 21:27:18 02/15/21) Many a time all I had to do was pull up the distributer, rotate it 180 degrees and bolt it back down. The backfiring tells me its trying.
n a 9N or front mount 8N? Not likely!
 
(quoted from post at 17:48:12 02/14/21) Compression on all 4 cylinders are pegged
out at 90 PSI and spark. Spraying starter
fluid into carb and nothing. Backfire
obviously if choked. Little back pressure
tho with my palm and it gets close. Thank
you
o it kinda has compression and does have spark. Something is majorly amiss someplace if its not firing off. While this might be out in left field alittle are you sure the intake is all sealed up? You dont have something crazy where the non threaded end of the studs your using are of so slightly thicker than the manifold itself?
 
The 1948 8n is running and starting up. Dem
thank you for our advice on squinting oil
from the oil gauge line. I put in 2 quarts
and the dip stick was reading high doni
assumed lines were full and it took anmonet
for the oil pump to catch prime. So 25 to
29 lbs of OP while running.
I also double checked the timing with your
pulley trick and TDC is good and both
valves are closed in sequence. Thank you
very much sir
Kossuth you are correct sir! After initial
start up and checking for leaks the
manifold is sucking air making is all most
impossible to adjust cars but that is ok. I
will replace studs and nuts and maybe
manifold after I examine it.
I will say that it was so close to starting
but flooding/ wet plugs and carb adjustment
was killing me..the needle and seat were
good but I swapped them out and changed
from 437AUTOLITES to 216 AUTOLITES...man
what difference.
Again thank you all for your help.
 
JMOR I have a petronix ELI installed on my
48 8n front mount distributor. 12 volt coil
measuring 2.3 ohms. I am following your
diagram you provided me but wanted to check
if I need OEM ballast resistor with ELI and
12 volt coil sir?
Thank you
 

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