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Bringing back to life 8N parked 15 years ago, not starting

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chrislee85

Member
Hello all - I was given my grandfathers 8N by a long time family friend. He took it when my grandfather passed away and it hasn t ran since my grandad last started it probably 15 years ago. The fuel tank had leaks, so I purchased a new one, new fuel sediment bowl, battery and a new carburetor after I stripped out the main jet trying to clean and rebuild it. I got everything installed this afternoon and after topping off transmission fluid and radiator, I was ready to try to fire it up. It turned over, but nothing. It wasn t long until it felt like the engine was having trouble turning over, almost like it was too much for the battery, but the local auto parts store said they only have one size of 6v (which was 625 CCA. I pulled a couple plugs and put on the head and noticed there was spark, but the plugs were dry and didn t smell any gas. I let the carb sit and checked suction on the intake which felt like it was good.

I am taking the battery back to get charged tomorrow, and maybe now that the carb has set wit fuel in it it will be easier to fire up? Any other ideas of items to check?

Thanks!
Chris
 


Dry plugs means you ain't getting gas through the carb. Could be a plugged line. Maybe not enough gas in the tank? Maybe a defective carb. Should be a plug on the bottom of the carb bowl. Pull it and see if you have gas that far. If yes let in run a minute or 2. Should be a steady stream. If not pull the line and see if the line is plugged. Make sure the fuel valve on the sediment bowl is open too.

Rick
 

I think you re right. The first time I tried it wasn t getting good fuel flow, I took off the carb again then put it back on. It took longer to get fuel to and through the carb than I was initially thinking, by that time I think the battery was worn down enough that it wasn t turning over fast enough. Hopefully with a charged up battery it will have enough suction/flow to fire.

I pulled 2 plugs and put them on the head and saw a spark. I would expect to hear it fire (maybe not run smooth) but at least fire a few times if fuel was getting to the cylinders right?

With a tractor that has been sitting for 15+ years, would you expect I HAVE to replace points/plugs/plug wires?
 
Setting that long it could be suffering from stuck rings too. If that's the case you may not get enough compression to make it run. Maybe still get it to pop a couple of times. [b:a0625cf7a0]But first[/b:a0625cf7a0] you have to address the fuel issue. If you know you have GOOD spark (bright blue) and air/fuel mixture then if you have compression it should run.

Rick
 

If that s the case - would new rings fix the problem or much more of a repair than that?

I m comfortable with basic repairs, but when it gets to anything under the head with the pistons, cylinders, etc., I get a little intimidated....
 
Sitting for 15 years. it need a tea spoon of oil down the spark plug holes and then give it a shot of either.
 
Chris,15 years,First get your battery charged up,Clean all cable ends and grounds,ground hooked to clutch housing bolt shiny.Remove plugs and do a compression test,dry then wet ATF.Put an ounce of ATF down each cylinder,roll it over a few times with a crank or by the fan and let it soak a few days.It could have stuck valves but a compression test will show if stuck or not.Post back results of the compression test.
 
(quoted from post at 19:42:42 05/05/19)
If that s the case - would new rings fix the problem or much more of a repair than that?

I m comfortable with basic repairs, but when it gets to anything under the head with the pistons, cylinders, etc., I get a little intimidated....
Click to expand...

First get gas flowing. Then if it starts it starts. If it fails to start the shot of oil and either may get it running. If that fails then it would be time to do a compression test. Failing the compression test would indicate that there are internal issues. Would just a set of rings fix it? Who knows?

All I did was mention worst case. No need to throw money at it till you know what the problem is.

I just worked on one that the sediment bowl was plugged up. So it could be something simple that will only cost a little time to fix.

Rick
 

Some helpful comments by everyone. Very much appreciated.

I ll get the battery charged up and report back on what I find. I don t have a compression gauge, but may be time to get one.

Any particular weight of oil to spray in cilinders?
 
(quoted from post at 20:45:30 05/05/19)
Some helpful comments by everyone. Very much appreciated.

I ll get the battery charged up and report back on what I find. I don t have a compression gauge, but may be time to get one.

Any particular weight of oil to spray in cilinders?
Click to expand...

Just use ATF,automatic transmission fluid,any type or brand will work.Also watch for oil pressure to come up while cranking over. Better yet take the oil line loose from the oil gauge and pump some motor oil into the line with a pump oil can with a hose atached to the line. Even a squeeze bottle with a spout will work,say a pint or more.This will lube the bearings and prime the oil pump.Do this before cranking it over any more or the rod and main bearings that are dry could be damaged!
 
I took the battery to the parts store and they tested and the
battery tested bad. Being that it tested bad made me think it
was likely not fully charged when I got it a couple days ago.
They will have another 6v in tomorrow, so I will drop some oil
in the cylinders and try again tomorrow after the fuel has had
a chance to soak in to the cylinders. If that doesn?t work, I will
start testing compression as was pointed out above, now that
I know there should be a carb full of fuel. How much oil & how
long should I let it set in the cylinders before it is safe to try?
 
Chris use Atf and follow what I posted above ,soaking a few days will free stuck rings and help stuck valves.Thenyou can try to start with startind fluid.PUT OIL down oil line at the gauge to prevent bearing damage.
 
(quoted from post at 19:44:51 05/06/19) Chris use Atf and follow what I posted above ,soaking a few days will free stuck rings and help stuck valves.Thenyou can try to start with startind fluid.PUT OIL down oil line at the gauge to prevent bearing damage.
Click to expand...

Den - once I let ATF soak for a few days, do I drain oil and what ATF I put in or is it safe to leave in engine with current oil?
 
(quoted from post at 22:10:31 05/06/19)
(quoted from post at 19:44:51 05/06/19) Chris use Atf and follow what I posted above ,soaking a few days will free stuck rings and help stuck valves.Thenyou can try to start with startind fluid.PUT OIL down oil line at the gauge to prevent bearing damage.
Click to expand...

Den - once I let ATF soak for a few days, do I drain oil and what ATF I put in or is it safe to leave in engine with current oil?
Click to expand...
Have you changed the oil already? If so, you could probably leave it. If the 15 year old stuff is still in it I would change it before going any further.

You also asked earlier if you should replace the points. I would, but if you're getting spark you may not have to. But I would definitely run some fine sandpaper or emery cloth through them if you haven't already done so.
 
Chris,If the oil on the dip stick looks good and just a little dirty you could leave it till after you get it running or if bad dirty change it and filter,and clean out filter canister inside.Remove the plug in the bottom and wash it out with some gas and a brush while the oil is draining.
The ATF in the cylinders will make a mess when you crank it over with the plugs out but that can't be helped.
Put at least a ounce or two of ATF down each cylinder roll over by hand and let it soak a day or more.Then crank it over with the starter and spit the ATF out of the cylinders.
Put the plugs back in and try starting it with a shot of starting fluid in the carb intake when cranking it over with ignition switch on.
Be ready for lots of SMOKE!
 
(quoted from post at 06:36:00 05/07/19) Chris,If the oil on the dip stick looks good and just a little dirty you could leave it till after you get it running or if bad dirty change it and filter,and clean out filter canister inside.Remove the plug in the bottom and wash it out with some gas and a brush while the oil is draining.
The ATF in the cylinders will make a mess when you crank it over with the plugs out but that can't be helped.
Put at least a ounce or two of ATF down each cylinder roll over by hand and let it soak a day or more.Then crank it over with the starter and spit the ATF out of the cylinders.
Put the plugs back in and try starting it with a shot of starting fluid in the carb intake when cranking it over with ignition switch on.
Be ready for lots of SMOKE!
Click to expand...

Thanks. Will the atf (or what is causing the lots of smoke) not damage the cylinders/pistons/rings/valves?
 
(quoted from post at 09:41:02 05/07/19)
(quoted from post at 06:36:00 05/07/19) Chris,If the oil on the dip stick looks good and just a little dirty you could leave it till after you get it running or if bad dirty change it and filter,and clean out filter canister inside.Remove the plug in the bottom and wash it out with some gas and a brush while the oil is draining.
The ATF in the cylinders will make a mess when you crank it over with the plugs out but that can't be helped.
Put at least a ounce or two of ATF down each cylinder roll over by hand and let it soak a day or more.Then crank it over with the starter and spit the ATF out of the cylinders.
Put the plugs back in and try starting it with a shot of starting fluid in the carb intake when cranking it over with ignition switch on.
Be ready for lots of SMOKE!
Click to expand...

Thanks. Will the atf (or what is causing the lots of smoke) not damage the cylinders/pistons/rings/valves?
Click to expand...

Chris,

The residual ATf burning off will be causing the smoke.
Before your start attempt, when you remove the plugs and roll it over to expel the excess ATF, put an old folded towel over the head to minimize your mess.

Prior to that while the pistons are swamped with ATF, turn the crankshaft to different positions periodically so that the pistons are at various positions in the cylinders.

My '51 chev that was sitting for 19 years is happily running again. Personally, what I do with the plugs out is to insert a piece of small diameter tubing into each plug hole and push it in so that the end of it is up against the cylinder wall.Then I liberally spray my favorite penetrating lubricant that I know instantly starts to dissolves rust, gum and varnish (Amsoil MP) into the piece of tubing.

Doing that sends your penetrating fluid where it is needed, where it does the most good; i.e., up against the walls where it will run down the walls, track around and pool on the top rings. THIN is better for obvious reasons.

T
 
(quoted from post at 06:36:00 05/07/19) Chris,If the oil on the dip stick looks good and just a little dirty you could leave it till after you get it running or if bad dirty change it and filter,and clean out filter canister inside.Remove the plug in the bottom and wash it out with some gas and a brush while the oil is draining.
The ATF in the cylinders will make a mess when you crank it over with the plugs out but that can't be helped.
Put at least a ounce or two of ATF down each cylinder roll over by hand and let it soak a day or more.Then crank it over with the starter and spit the ATF out of the cylinders.
Put the plugs back in and try starting it with a shot of starting fluid in the carb intake when cranking it over with ignition switch on.
Be ready for lots of SMOKE!
Click to expand...

Alright - I got 2 ounces of ATF in each cylinder, now for the waiting game! Any chance I ve damaged anything for trying to start it before the ATF or anything else I should do before trying again?

Also - while the plugs are out I figured I would go ahead and replace, these look rusty on top and black on the tip, is there a general consensus on replacement plugs? Also - are they gapped right out of the box or will they need to be gapped?
 
Chris,Have you rolled the engine over by hand yet,I would roll it over by hand a couple times a day for a couple days to work the ATF in the rings and valves.Put oil down the oil gauge line.Then cover the head with a old towel or rags then spin it over with the starter with plugs out to expel excess ATF.Watch oil pressure gauge while cranking it over for pressure.
Get you a set of NGK 3112 (B41) plugs and the gap is .025,all the sets that I have put in were gaped on the money asthey have a plastic tube on the end for protection.Does it have gas through the bottom plug of the carb at least 1 pint in 2 minutes.Then give it a shot of starting fluid in the carb throat while crankit over with the ignition switch on to start it up.Then watch for oil pressure to come up.If no oil pressure in 10 -20 seconds shut it down,but if you primed the gauge line it should have pressure.
 
(quoted from post at 22:16:52 05/07/19)

Alright - I got 2 ounces of ATF in each cylinder, now for the waiting game! Any chance I ve damaged anything for trying to start it before the ATF or anything else I should do before trying again?

Also - while the plugs are out I figured I would go ahead and replace, these look rusty on top and black on the tip, is there a general consensus on replacement plugs? Also - are they gapped right out of the box or will they need to be gapped?
Click to expand...

I would check the gap. Lots of times they're pretty close coming out of the box, but not always.
 

I attempted to roll it over by hand but only able to get it to turn about 1/4 turn. The fan spins freely, because of slack in the belt.

Any good way to turn it over? With the radiator, seems like its hard to get access to the wheel.

I will get new plugs and check the gap.

Thanks!
Chris
 

First of all, make sure that you have all of the spark plug wires off when you try to turn it over.

Wouldn't it be just your luck that it pops just from a little spin, starts running and breaks your arm? Murphy's law.

Anyway, feel the center of the pulley in the center of the engine at the bottom of the front of the engine. That's the pulley that runs everything. It should be on the end of the crankshaft. Feel the center of that pulley with your hand, or look at it, if you can see it.

Is there a hex nut there? I'm guessing there is.

My 2N, which is related, but not the same, has a hex nut in the center of that pulley. On the 2N, a 1-5/16" socket fits it. I'm not sure what yours is, but probably similar.

If you can get a socket on that nut...and get a ratchet or breaker bar on that socket... you can turn the engine with it.
 
You say,I attempted to roll it over by hand but only able to get it to turn about 1/4 turn. The fan spins freely, because of slack in the belt.

Just tighten the belt,or push down on the belt with one hand between the pulleys to take up the slack when turning the fan blade.
 
(quoted from post at 14:47:41 05/08/19) You say,I attempted to roll it over by hand but only able to get it to turn about 1/4 turn. The fan spins freely, because of slack in the belt.

Just tighten the belt,or push down on the belt with one hand between the pulleys to take up the slack when turning the fan blade.
Click to expand...

That is what I did, was hoping for an easier way. Tightening the belt wouldn t help on mine, the fan pulley is smooth and just slips. Based on how hard it is to turn, I m going to give the ATF another night and try to rotate more again later tonight by hand. Also - new plugs will be in tomorrow, so maybe Thursday or Friday I can try starting again.
 
Is there a reason you can't just put it in gear and roll the rear tire? That seems very controlled. That's how I line up the points on top of the cam inside the distributor.............
 
(quoted from post at 17:22:03 05/08/19) Is there a reason you can't just put it in gear and roll the rear tire? That seems very controlled. That's how I line up the points on top of the cam inside the distributor.............
Click to expand...

I have been able to push down and get it to turn by forcing the belt, but when it s in gear it doesn t want to budge - even giving it a good push and the plugs out.
 
(quoted from post at 19:12:40 05/08/19)
(quoted from post at 17:22:03 05/08/19) Is there a reason you can't just put it in gear and roll the rear tire? That seems very controlled. That's how I line up the points on top of the cam inside the distributor.............
Click to expand...

I have been able to push down and get it to turn by forcing the belt, but when it s in gear it doesn t want to budge - even giving it a good push and the plugs out.
Click to expand...

Which gear? 4th should be the easiest (less revolutions of the engine per push?)
 
(quoted from post at 19:35:12 05/08/19)
(quoted from post at 19:12:40 05/08/19)
(quoted from post at 17:22:03 05/08/19) Is there a reason you can't just put it in gear and roll the rear tire? That seems very controlled. That's how I line up the points on top of the cam inside the distributor.............
Click to expand...

I have been able to push down and get it to turn by forcing the belt, but when it s in gear it doesn t want to budge - even giving it a good push and the plugs out.
Click to expand...

Which gear? 4th should be the easiest (less revolutions of the engine per push?)
Click to expand...

I had tried 1, 2 & R, just tried 4th and I could barely push it, but able to get the cylinders moving. Thanks! I rolled it probably 5 ft, not sure how far would get complete cycle of the cylinder, but that should get some of the ATF moving I d think!
 
After letting the ATF soak for a few days and rolling over the engine by hand a few times, I left the plugs out and hit the starter with towels over the plugs. No ATF came out.

I replaced the plugs with new NGK 3112s and tried starting, but still not firing. I sprayed some starter fluid in cylinder 1, but nothing.

It does look like ATF is leaking out of the carb when I try to turn it over, but can t seem to get it to fire. I pulled plugs and cleaned points and looks like all 4 cylinders are sparking.

The battery has gotten weak from trying so I ve got it on the charger now. Any ideas? Thanks for the help so far!
 
Chris,The next thing I would do is a compression test.You can get one fairly cheap at Harbor Freight or even rent one at sutozone.
Dit it show any oil pressure on the gauge when cranking it over?
Is the firing order correct?
Will the spark jump a 1/4" or more?
 
Chris ,You could even do a quick test by removing all the plugs and put your finger or thunb over the hole tight and crank it over to see if the cylinders have any compression.
 
(quoted from post at 19:12:37 05/10/19) Chris,The next thing I would do is a compression test.You can get one fairly cheap at Harbor Freight or even rent one at sutozone.
Dit it show any oil pressure on the gauge when cranking it over?
Is the firing order correct?
Will the spark jump a 1/4" or more?
Click to expand...

I picked up a compression gauge at autozone. Once it charges up I ll test, with a weak battery cylinder 1 didn t have but 25-30 lbs and cylinder 2 had abt 45lbs....that was quite concerning, but when I had the towel over the cylinders it sucked them in a fair amount. Also, with plugs out, you could definitely hear some suction/pressure.
 
Chria,All plugs out and the throttle wide open to test.
What about oil pressure on the gauge whrn cranking it over for a few seconds?
 

Ok I wasn t paying attention to the throttle and other plugs were in. The oil pressure gauge didn t move at all, I m thinking maybe the gauge is broke?
 

I sent you a response.

I had an oiler that I put in the end of the hose that came off of the back of the gauge and kept pumping in until it overflowed then waited 15-20 seconds and tried again and it overflowed again.
 
(quoted from post at 21:02:08 05/10/19)
I sent you a response.

I had an oiler that I put in the end of the hose that came off of the back of the gauge and kept pumping in until it overflowed then waited 15-20 seconds and tried again and it overflowed again.
Click to expand...

Well....it happened. I was taking off the started to clean the connection to the block and the back of the start slipped off past the brushes. I have spent all day trying to get the brushes pulled back while getting the rest of the starter back in to no success. Maybe tomorrow I can hold my teeth just right and get it back together....assuming I can sneak away and work on the tractor on Mother s Day!
 
Den - i got the starter put back together and back on the tractor and I went back through the oil pressure line like we had talked abt and pumped 1pint of oil down the line. I figured I would hit the starter now that the oil pressure line was loaded up again and a couple cycles and VRRRm. She fired right up and before I could shut her down to open the shop door she had smoked up the shop. I rolled her outside and tried again and was able to get her to fire up one more time and ran for probably 5 seconds - this time I let her run as long as she could. I couldn t get her to fire back up, but figured it was time to let her rest and touch base with you again while I let the battery charge over night to see if I needed to do anything else to prevent damage. In the attempts and while she ran, I didn t see any movement in the oil pressure gauge.
 
Chris OH No ,I tould you in a pervious post NOT to run it for more than 10 - 20 seconds without oil pressure!
 
Den - it hasn t run for more than 5 seconds. I was checking to see if there was oil pressure after I had loaded up the line like you had said.
 
Den - I primed the oil pump like we talked about and bypassed the oil line to the filter and was able to get a reading of 5-10lbs of oil pressure. Also - I tested compression in the cylinders dry then wet with4 squirts of oil and my readings were as follows (from seat to front of tractor:

1. 75 dry 75 wet
2. 90 dry 90 wet
3. 50 dry 70 wet
4. 50 dry 90 wet

I only turned the engine for 5-6 seconds. Give me a ring when you get a chance and let me know your thoughts.

Thanks
 
Chris,Now that you have oil presure,start it up and let it run say 1/2 hour varring the RPMs every so often shuld help it run better.
The compression test shows that 3 cylinders are leaking past the valves,from posible rust on the valve face and seats.Hopefully running it will help clear the rust and seat up the valves.
 

Hi Den - hope all is well, not sure if you remember helping me get this tractor up and going but has been running great. Recently noticed the oil pressure has been running a little lower than it was. Starts out around 30 and drops down to about 10.

I recall you had recommended an engine oil to me and have been looking all over the place and cant find where I wrote it down. Do you mind sharing again? Im in north Texas heat and running a 1949 8N. It is on the lower end on the dipstick, not sure if adding oil will help or not but figured it definitely wouldnt hurt.

Hope all is well!
 
Chris,You might try a oil and filter change and like Castrol GTX 20-W-50 weight oil.That should bring the oil pressure up some in that HOT! Texas weather.
 
(quoted from post at 09:40:17 08/03/20) Chris,You might try a oil and filter change and like Castrol GTX 20-W-50 weight oil.That should bring the oil pressure up some in that HOT! Texas weather.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Safe to run in the cooler weather as well?
 
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