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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
:

2n new build losing prime

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TheCarDoc

06-19-2020 09:52:17




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Hey guys, I've got a 2n headache. Here's the deal, new sleeves, pistons, seals, gaskets, oil pump body (3/4 gears), line bore and machine work, new pick up and relief valve and spring, new valves and everything. Checked crank, cam and all with mic, it's to spec 30/30. New .30 rod and main bearings. Packed oil pump for initial start up, got oil flow from block. Both oil gallery plugs are in. After initial break in I stopped the engine and let it cool. Started it up again, started hearing some noise, no oil pressure, primed through relief hole, low and behold, oil pressure........until I cut it off and let if sit around 15 mins. No oil pressure. I know everything is to spec. Torqued and all. The only thing I can think of is the paper gasket at the pick up isn't sealing and allowing the hot thin oil the seep out and lose its prime. Anyone have any thoughts? I'm running 10w40 for break in. I'm in alabama so thicker oil isn't out of the question either being that we dont know what winter is.

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TheOldHokie

06-27-2020 17:37:46




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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Steve Dabrowski discovered the problem with the oil pump kits. I simply researched the gears and obtained full specifications from the Ford prints because I prefer facts over speculation. i know darn little about N series tractors and I am not gruff. I am in fact an arrogant a-hole who spends hours on the phone abusing silly N owners who call me looking for all manner of help. They apparently like the abuse because they call at all hours of the day, often talk at length, and frequently call again. Strange how that works.

TOH

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showcrop

06-27-2020 15:42:13




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
CarDoc, let me fill you in on a little background. I believe that it was early last year that an issue came up with the N oil pump kits. The Old Hokie was the one who bought some and measured them and found excessive clearances in some. He is the worlds foremost expert on Ns so you should acknowledge that and be thankful that he is willing to offer his advice, even if it is in a gruff manner.



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Thecardoc

06-26-2020 14:36:30




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
Got my new kit in today, used a dial caliper and checked new gears, both are .725 +/-. Packed and installed. The face of gear tooth clearance to side of housing was half of the other gears. Filled with 30w. Started and had 65 to 80 psi on start up, went steady around 40 to 45+ cold. @Idle and normal operating temp, it's around 20 to 24 psi and under mild throttle it's around 35 to 40. Darn pump kits. Thanks guys.

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Thecardoc

06-26-2020 14:43:44




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to Thecardoc, 06-26-2020 14:36:30  
Also, I have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge from TS. Not sure how much I trust it. I'm now reading slightly under 20psi at idle and around 26-28 at mid throttle. It has oil pressure though and it's pretty hot today so I'm not too discouraged.



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TheOldHokie

06-20-2020 10:53:50




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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Well I'd say you have found your problem and the good news is it is an easy and inexpensive fix. Hard to blame the machine shop if you provided the parts.

TOH



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Thecardoc

06-20-2020 10:57:23




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheOldHokie, 06-20-2020 10:53:50  
Yeah, I'm not blaming them, just gonna fix it. The oil pressure wasn't good when it was pumping so I'm pretty sure that's it. I will keep you posted. Appreciate it.



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jimtrs

06-20-2020 09:10:55




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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I could mention a lot of stuff here, but I'll keep it simple:

Listen to TOH

Oil pumps have been discussed here to great lengths.



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TheOldHokie

06-19-2020 20:39:40




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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Face width of .724 is right on. The bad ones are typically around .710. But apparently something in that pump is not right. Measure tip clearance to housing with a feeler gauge. Should be just a few rhousandths. Also measure end clearance with a good straight edge and feeler gauge. Remove all traces of gasket and sealer then set straight edge on face of housing and measure gap between gear and straight edge with the feeler gauges. Should also be just a few thousandths.

Which brings us to the unasked question. You replaced original oil pump and pickup tube. Why?

TOH

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Thecardoc

06-20-2020 10:37:38




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheOldHokie, 06-19-2020 20:39:40  
Okay, just pulled it down again. The edge of tooth to wall clearance is tight on a .005 brass feeler. The face of the driven gear to pick up back plate (straight edge) is between .006 and .007. The drive gear is way more. Low and behold, the drive gear face to face is .710. The driven gear is .724. When I had it line bored I got the machine shop to go ahead and press the gear on for me. Between me and dropping of the kit(unopened package) and getting it back, either a gear got switched (most likely) or it was packaged wrong (not like from yt). I'm not happy, machine shop has some questions to answer. I did knock it off myself to check the measurements. It's a mess.

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Tractorguy2

06-22-2020 21:20:29




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to Thecardoc, 06-20-2020 10:37:38  
Several people have had trouble with the Atlantic brand oil pump kits sold by YT.



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Thecardoc

06-19-2020 20:50:06




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheOldHokie, 06-19-2020 20:39:40  
Housing had a crack from outside face of fear shaft into center of pump housing. This engine was not oiling before. Pick up had been severely abused in the past 70 years. I will pull it and check all tomorrow and let you know.



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TheOldHokie

06-19-2020 19:46:21




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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Calm as cucumber and I simply missed the line bore comment. I am trying to help you but you are not giving specifics. What did the oil pump gears measure?

TOH



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Thecardoc

06-19-2020 20:14:13




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheOldHokie, 06-19-2020 19:46:21  
.724 +- (on the fly measurement with my dial). Trying to be very specific so I don't leave anything out. I think I may have another kit from a previous build, i may swap the gears out.



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Thecardoc

06-19-2020 19:33:19




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
I will pull it back down tomorrow and pull the housing again.



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TheOldHokie

06-19-2020 18:59:42




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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I heard you the first time and I gave you something to check. Dont assume anything. Use a micrometer and check the actual dimension of one of your "new 3/4" gears". It should measure .725.. There are lots of junk kits on the market with new gears that are roughly .010 undersize. Let me repeat, those kits are unusable JUNK and will not pump reliably.

Your new oil pump housing is also a main bearing cap. Caps and blocks are bored as a matched assembly by the factory. You cannot simply swap caps from one block to another. If you replace ANY cap on an engine block you have to rebore the block and other caps to match. If you dont the bearing bore of the new cap will be out of round and alignment with the other bearing bores. This is basic engine building 101.

TOH

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Thecardoc

06-19-2020 19:30:17




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheOldHokie, 06-19-2020 18:59:42  
In my initial post I said I had it lined bored. Every part I purchased came from YT. Except my engine kit. There was no attitude in any of my replies, calm down. Was in the middle of putting everything back together when I responded, I checked the gears with my dial caliper.



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wore out

06-19-2020 18:16:39




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
Check how much clearance there is between the "sides" of the oil pump gears and the housing using Plastigauge.



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Thecardoc

06-19-2020 16:08:06




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
The pump gears are 3/4" in a new housing. Bushing was pre center reemed with pump housing from the store. Just put it back together with the same issue. New pick up, no cracks,dents,dings nothing. It is to spec. Put the old relief valve back in and has the same issue. I can prime it, crank it and have oil pressure. Stop it and wait 5 minutes, no oil pressure.



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Thecardoc

06-19-2020 16:09:17




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to Thecardoc, 06-19-2020 16:08:06  
New oil pump build kit.



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TheOldHokie

06-19-2020 15:39:33




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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PS> New oil pump body needs to be align honed to get proper bearing clearances on the front main. That is a different issue but needs to be addressed.

TOH



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TheOldHokie

06-19-2020 15:36:01




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
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Gravity keeps enough oil in the pump to maintain prime. Despite protestations to the contrary something is not to specification. My first WAG would be face width of new oil pump gears.

TOH



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Jim L WA

06-19-2020 12:16:29




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
What is supposed to keep the oil from running out of the pump when it is shut down? I'm wondering if it is the pressure relief valve and your new one isn't seating. If oil could run out of the oil pick up gasket like you are thinking, then what's to keep oil from running out when ever anyone drains the oil for an oil change? Just some thoughts.



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TheCarDoc

06-19-2020 11:13:19




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
I'm going to drop the pan shortly. I put a vacuum pump on the new pickup when I got it and closed the other end to make sure there were no issues.



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TheCarDoc

06-19-2020 10:52:21




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
I was just addressing the type oil I'm using. Brand new pick up. Tight as a button.



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HCooke

06-19-2020 10:36:30




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TheCarDoc, 06-19-2020 09:52:17  
I don't think thicker oil will solve your problem. Drop the oil drain plug and check the pickup tube for looseness. Maybe tube was cracked during assembly?



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TimInd

06-19-2020 20:08:23




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to HCooke, 06-19-2020 10:36:30  
I agree with Cooke. check that pickup tube.



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Thecardoc

06-19-2020 20:28:43




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 Re: 2n new build losing prime in reply to TimInd, 06-19-2020 20:08:23  
I did earlier thouroghly. No cracks or leaks in the pick up. It held vacuum for 10 mins.



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