Pto shaft stuck and seal needs replacing 8n

Vgershon · Mar 30, 2020

I need help in simple terms - I m a 66 yr old woman and don t know many mechanical words. I removed the 4 bolts around pto. It pulled out about 1/4" and stopped. I tried rotating slowly and pulling, no good. I removed the plate the pto shifter sits in (left side) and the top plate with starter and shifter. Lots of shiny stuff in there!
I read about cutting out pto shaft with a sawzall, but I will need step by step instructions. I see a lot of gears and the pto shaft, but no idea where the hydraulic pump is.
Tomorrow I will remove right side plate where hydraulic dipstick is. I will do anything to keep from splitting this tractor in half.
Thanks for any advice or pictures you can give to help me figure this out.

TheOldHokie · Mar 31, 2020

(quoted from post at 00:30:41 03/31/20) I need help in simple terms - I m a 66 yr old woman and don t know many mechanical words. I removed the 4 bolts around pto. It pulled out about 1/4" and stopped. I tried rotating slowly and pulling, no good. I removed the plate the pto shifter sits in (left side) and the top plate with starter and shifter. Lots of shiny stuff in there!
I read about cutting out pto shaft with a sawzall, but I will need step by step instructions. I see a lot of gears and the pto shaft, but no idea where the hydraulic pump is.o ol
Tomorrow I will remove right side plate where hydraulic dipstick is. I will do anything to keep from splitting this tractor in half.
Thanks for any advice or pictures you can give to help me figure this out.

The "top plate" is on the transmission and has nothing to do with this. Put it back on before you drop something into those gears. The hydraulic pump is that square thing you can see through the side cover. The PTO shaft goes through the middle of it. How aggressive have you been pulling on the end of the PTO?

TOH

Tim PloughNman Daley RIP · Mar 31, 2020

Welcome to the forums. As a newbie, the best investment now is to get copies of all the Essential Manuals -see picture. You need the OEM Operator's Manual, the I&T/Clymer FO-4 Manual, the 39-53 MPC, the Ford tractor licensed by Ford parts supplier (they make many exact original parts because the own all the original Ford tooling) and the 8N Service Manual for dealer Mechanics are essential tools to have and read religiously. Next DO NOT cut any parts with a sawzall or anything else; not needed. The manuals have procedures for removing and repairing the hydraulics -there is a right way and a thousand wrong ways. I can help - my email is open.

FORD 8N TRACTOR ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS:

Tim Daley(MI)

Abbby · Mar 31, 2020

I just went through this. I have attempted to remove my PTO shaft a couple times over the past few years. Just like described it would slide out a little bit and stop. In
my mind only one explanation which proved to be true. The splined end of the shaft where it exits the front of the hydraulic pump either wore enough or twisted and it
will not slide back through the pump. I split the tractor between the transmission and rear end housing. Before I did this I pried and used a slide hammer on the PTO
shaft doing everything I could to get the shaft out. No go. After splitting the tractor I drove the shaft out through the pump with a large punch and hammer. It came out
with a lot of force. I am concerned I may have damaged the pump but the new shaft slide though without issue. Looking back I could have tried cutting shaft off but that
poses other challenges.

Vgershon · Mar 31, 2020

Thanks for that info on top plate. I did put it back in place before leaving so nothing would drop in. Haven t been aggressive pulling (not very strong at 120 lbs), also don t have many tools. I read "don t use a come along" but that is one thing I have. Might try that, gently. Or go buy a slide hammer.

Jim L WA · Mar 31, 2020

Try a pry bar. You say you don't have many tools, a large heavy duty screwdriver or a crow bar will do. Could you borrow one? Then try the slide hammer. If you could enlist some help, prying and sliding at the same time might do it.

Bob · Mar 31, 2020

(quoted from post at 11:40:04 03/31/20) Try a pry bar. You say you don't have many tools, a large heavy duty screwdriver or a crow bar will do. Could you borrow one? Then try the slide hammer. If you could enlist some help, prying and sliding at the same time might do it.

I'd be REAL hesitant to pry and yank on the shaft that vigorously.

Especially if not intending to remove the hydraulic pump and check it over for damage.

R Geiger · Mar 31, 2020

(quoted from post at 11:26:53 03/31/20)

(quoted from post at 11:40:04 03/31/20) Try a pry bar. You say you don't have many tools, a large heavy duty screwdriver or a crow bar will do. Could you borrow one? Then try the slide hammer. If you could enlist some help, prying and sliding at the same time might do it.

Click to expand...

I'd be REAL hesitant to pry and yank on the shaft that vigorously.

Especially if not intending to remove the hydraulic pump and check it over for damage.

Well if she ends up having to cut it off she will be removing the pump anyway. Me thinks she needs some help!

Vgershon · Mar 31, 2020

Thanks for all comments. I m stuck in FL due to nnalert, home is in PA (as is husband!) been reading manuals and they make my head spin, so going out with a crow bar when heat gets below 90. I figure anything I use won t do to much damage cuz I can t pull hard.
I ll let you know if I make any progress!

Jim L WA · Mar 31, 2020

90 degrees? Stuck in Florida? Holly Molly. It's 36 degrees and snowing, raining, groppeling, you name it here. I'll take it here. Good luck on your attempt with the crow bar. We hope you get the shaft out.

Vgershon · Mar 31, 2020

For entertainment of those stuck in bad weather, above is my come along attempt to pull pto shaft. Didn t budge. The tractor rolled a little, so I figured any more would be excessive force. Went back and took off both right and left side plates. Can see and rotate pto, but no clue as to why it won t come out. I realized there is still about 3" of oil inside because I never could get bottom plugs off. So my next step is to find a big pipe to lever my socket wrench with. So happy to have 8n to play with while staying isolated! Stay tuned, I may need to learn how to cut this shaft out yet!

Bob · Mar 31, 2020

"Can see and rotate pto, but no clue as to why it won t come out."

The front of the PTO shaft has a long splined area that is it's weakest point, and will sometimes get a twist in it if a heavy load such as a rotary cutter suddenly jams and kills the engine.

That splined area passes through and drives the hydraulic pump.

If the shaft gets twisted it can't easily pass though the hydraulic pump, and gets stuck.

If NOT twisted the shaft can easily be withdrawn, there's nothing to impede it's coming out.

But if twisted much at all it CAN"T come out though the pump without the risk of wrecking the pump.

A little prying is OK, if that doesn't work, the fix is to remove the hitch cover for access and cut the shaft off at the front and back of the pump, then drop the pump out of the tractor and shave the twisted piece out of the pump "forward", that way the twisted part does not have to pass backwards though the pump.

Vgershon · Apr 1, 2020

Hi Bob,
Remove the hitch cover - is that the part where the trailer hitch is attached to tractor?
Cut the shaft, ok.
Drop the pump - I ve seen that phrase several times. Is the Pto shaft the only thing supporting hydraulic pump, so that if cut fore and aft, the whole thing just drops out?
Sounds like an adventure. First step after draining rest of fluid, is to remove hitch cover! I ll try to get that far before asking more specifics about sawing. I found an old industrial looking electric sawzall in my barn. Any tips on what kind of blade to use?
Thanks again everybody! #oldgirl-vs-oldertractor

HFJ · Apr 1, 2020

if u look at the bottom of the hydraulic section, you're looking at the bottom of the hydraulic pump. it is firmly attached to the tractor by those bolts.

not sure why it says front and rear. i'd have called those views bottom and top, personally.

Abbby · Apr 1, 2020

I think you have performed a very good attempt with the come along. Unfortunately it is going to need a slide hammer type action versus a steady pull. I would not be afraid to give it more force with a pry bar or better yet a slide hammer. Try putting max pull with your come along and use a hammer on the sides of the PTO housing and\or on the end actually attempting to hammer it back in. This provides a jolting like activity at the stuck point.

They way I see it cutting the ends of the shaft off down inside the tractor poses some significant challenges and you would want to exhaust all efforts of pulling from the back end before resorting to that.

showcrop · Apr 1, 2020

Vgershon, I am not very familiar with the Ns as my Fords are newer. However, here is some information that you can take to the bank. Bob has many years of hands on experience and is easily the most knowledgeable member here on these older tractors. Following his instructions will give you the greatest liklihood of the least painful good outcome. He will certainly be along soon and will advise on the removal of the hitch cover. Note also that his advice does not include a split.

TheOldHokie · Apr 1, 2020

(quoted from post at 08:47:19 04/01/20) I think you have performed a very good attempt with the come along. Unfortunately it is going to need a slide hammer type action versus a steady pull. I would not be afraid to give it more force with a pry bar or better yet a slide hammer. Try putting max pull with your come along and use a hammer on the sides of the PTO housing andor on the end actually attempting to hammer it back in. This provides a jolting like activity at the stuck point.

They way I see it cutting the ends of the shaft off down inside the tractor poses some significant challenges and you would want to exhaust all efforts of pulling from the back end before resorting to that.

If the splines are twisted (and it seems they are) pulling is not productive and potentially harmful and expensive. Here is a picture that may help. This is takem looking down from the top after removing the hydraulic top cover. Removing the cover is pretty easy - after removing the cover bolts use your come-a-long and a sky hook to lift it off:roll: In this picture the pinion drive coupler shaft is missing - it normally connects the two splined shafts at the top front and rear and is your main obstructiuon when accessing the PTO area from the top. As you can see in the picture the PTO shaft goes through the pump and into the shifter assembly on the left. I have labeled the splined portion of the PTO shaft where it exits the pump. That is the ares that gets twisted and prevents the shaft from pulling out to the right. Cutting that shaft off fore and aft of the pump will let you drop the pump and remove the cut off remnants of the shaft. Not a difficult job but one that would have me turning the air blue with aggravation....

HTH,

TOH

jimtrs · Apr 1, 2020

(quoted from post at 00:30:41 03/31/20)
I read about cutting out pto shaft with a sawzall, but I will need step by step instructions.

Why are you wanting to remove the PTO shaft? If because the seal leaks, you may just want to put up with the leak.

Cutting a PTO shaft out of an old N tractor is not for the faint of heart. It sounds easier than it actually is. I have had to cut several out over the years. It's a tuff cut. As said, it's usually twisted splines from years of use, that keep it from coming through the pump.
There's not a lot of room and some awkward angles to complete cuts. It makes a mess that needs to be cleaned out. Usually the pump needs to be dropped after the cut to thoroughly clean out the sump, and to remove the section of shaft left in the pump. This section can still be stuck hard, possibly damaging the pump trying to remove it.

Not saying it can't be done, just may want to consider how necessary.

R Geiger · Apr 1, 2020

(quoted from post at 10:50:06 04/01/20)

(quoted from post at 00:30:41 03/31/20)
I read about cutting out pto shaft with a sawzall, but I will need step by step instructions.

Click to expand...

Why are you wanting to remove the PTO shaft? If because the seal leaks, you may just want to put up with the leak.

Cutting a PTO shaft out of an old N tractor is not for the faint of heart. It sounds easier than it actually is. I have had to cut several out over the years. It's a tuff cut. As said, it's usually twisted splines from years of use, that keep it from coming through the pump.
There's not a lot of room and some awkward angles to complete cuts. It makes a mess that needs to be cleaned out. Usually the pump needs to be dropped after the cut to thoroughly clean out the sump, and to remove the section of shaft left in the pump. This section can still be stuck hard, possibly damaging the pump trying to remove it.

Not saying it can't be done, just may want to consider how necessary.

That was my thought also, if you have to use the pto fine, but when done remove drive shaft to mower and install PTO cover to contain the leak.

Vgershon · Apr 1, 2020

It really leaks! Like a constant heavy drip until the fluid is about 1/3 gone. Then it leaks more when I mow. Have trouble with excessive heat and decreased lift when I mow.
But I hear you about what a PITA this could be. Just gonna get it all opened up and look at pump first. Right now having issue with drain plugs on bottom. The wrenches keep twisting off cuz the corners are worn off. Tomorrow will attempt with pipe wrench.
AND, I need a project while "sheltering in place." Could take all summer!
Thanks All!

showcrop · Apr 1, 2020

(quoted from post at 18:59:57 04/01/20) It really leaks! Like a constant heavy drip until the fluid is about 1/3 gone. Then it leaks more when I mow. Have trouble with excessive heat and decreased lift when I mow.
But I hear you about what a PITA this could be. Just gonna get it all opened up and look at pump first. Right now having issue with drain plugs on bottom. The wrenches keep twisting off cuz the corners are worn off. Tomorrow will attempt with pipe wrench.
AND, I need a project while "sheltering in place." Could take all summer!
Thanks All!

Vgershon, the problem with the plugs is common. If you have an hydraulic bottle jack get the pipe wrench set, then get the jack under there with suitable piece of wood on top. Get the jack to close to the right height, then slip the wrench on the plug and bring the piece of wood up to the wrench. Put some good pressure on it, then a piece of pipe over the wrench handle and pull away. The reason that it is so tight is that the previous owner had no new gasket to put on so they had to resort to super tight to stop the drip. You can make a gasket from cereal box cardboard.

Vgershon · Apr 2, 2020

Well I got the front hydraulic plug off with the board/jack method, but the threads stayed in the tractor!

I chose the front one cuz it was easiest to get to. Almost feels like this plug was welded in place. Oh well, not sure if this can be fixed!

JMOR · Apr 2, 2020

The part that the plug was screwed into is most likely aluminum, so great care will be needed to remove plug threads from aluminum threaded hole & not damage those.

TheOldHokie · Apr 3, 2020

(quoted from post at 19:16:26 04/02/20) Well I got the front hydraulic plug off with the board/jack method, but the threads stayed in the tractor!
I chose the front one cuz it was easiest to get to. Almost feels like this plug was welded in place. Oh well, not sure if this can be fixed!

Pretty impressive for a self described 120 pound female weakling. How long was the pipe

It can be fixed - just pick the shards out of the threads in the hole and get a new plug. There are only about two complete threads on those plugs to begin with and based on what's left of the plug not too much to pick out. I'd probably start my attack with an awl and small hammer. If it's the front plug the case is cast iron but even so dont get carried away with the hammer....

TOH

JustBill · Jun 20, 2020

Just a quick reminder. Always use Never Seize when replacing nuts, bolts and screws. I use the copper type as it works just as well as the silver type and I don't have to have two cans laying around.

Pto shaft stuck and seal needs replacing 8n

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