Ring Ramblings

Greetings Forum Chums..
New .040 sleeves...
Pistons check out well within
specs...
new Hasting rings...what could
go wrong...right?...
plenty!!!...when I checked the
end gap on the Hastings
rings?...all over the map.
.021 - .028. The specs are
.010 to .017. I questioned one
of the icons here of the
Forum...he asked me what the
bore measured and other basic
questions...here is where it
gets embarrasing... I have
always
relied on my Machinist to tell
me..."Ed...pistons
good...gonna grind mains and
rods 10 under, so order your
bearings accordingly"...the
Icon said very patiently..
."we don't have enough info
to work with Ed...new is
meaningless"...he was
right...I felt like an
idiot...short story...pistons
and sleeves...dead nuts
on....ordered a new set of
Tisco rings....14.99 for a set
of 4....you heard right...and
EVERY RING came in at .010.
As Hobo is fond of
asking..."what did we
learn"...well...brand name is
meaningless...and I am quality
control...and I need to have a
better understanding of
calipers, mics and bore
gauges...the order has been
placed...happy wrenching
Chums...Cheers!
 
(quoted from post at 11:10:40 02/16/20) Greetings Forum Chums..
New .040 sleeves...
Pistons check out well within
specs...
new Hasting rings...what could
go wrong...right?...
plenty!!!...when I checked the
end gap on the Hastings
rings?...all over the map.
.021 - .028. The specs are
.010 to .017. I questioned one
of the icons here of the
Forum...he asked me what the
bore measured and other basic
questions...here is where it
gets embarrasing... I have
always
relied on my Machinist to tell
me..."Ed...pistons
good...gonna grind mains and
rods 10 under, so order your
bearings accordingly"...the
Icon said very patiently..
."we don't have enough info
to work with Ed...new is
meaningless"...he was
right...I felt like an
idiot...short story...pistons
and sleeves...dead nuts
on....ordered a new set of
Tisco rings....14.99 for a set
of 4....you heard right...and
EVERY RING came in at .010.
As Hobo is fond of
asking..."what did we
learn"...well...brand name is
meaningless...and I am quality
control...and I need to have a
better understanding of
calipers, mics and bore
gauges...the order has been
placed...happy wrenching
Chums...Cheers!

I find it noteworthy that the Hastings rings have an installed end gap that is almost 150% larger than original 1950's OEM specification but exhibit the same manufacturing tolerance range of .007. Three questions jump to mind:
  • [*:b1926ff27d]Is Hastings manufacturing and QA so bad they missed their target by that relatively massive margin?[*:b1926ff27d]Is it possible Hastings engineering has decided that the metallurgy and/or design of their current rings requires a bigger installed end gap?[*:b1926ff27d]Is it possible the rings you received are for some other application and/or have been mislabeled/boxed at the factory or distributor?[/list:eek::b1926ff27d]Did you discuss this matter with Hastings technical support?

    TOH
 
(quoted from post at 11:51:41 02/16/20)
(quoted from post at 11:10:40 02/16/20) Greetings Forum Chums..
New .040 sleeves...
Pistons check out well within
specs...
new Hasting rings...what could
go wrong...right?...
plenty!!!...when I checked the
end gap on the Hastings
rings?...all over the map.
.021 - .028. The specs are
.010 to .017. I questioned one
of the icons here of the
Forum...he asked me what the
bore measured and other basic
questions...here is where it
gets embarrasing... I have
always
relied on my Machinist to tell
me..."Ed...pistons
good...gonna grind mains and
rods 10 under, so order your
bearings accordingly"...the
Icon said very patiently..
."we don't have enough info
to work with Ed...new is
meaningless"...he was
right...I felt like an
idiot...short story...pistons
and sleeves...dead nuts
on....ordered a new set of
Tisco rings....14.99 for a set
of 4....you heard right...and
EVERY RING came in at .010.
As Hobo is fond of
asking..."what did we
learn"...well...brand name is
meaningless...and I am quality
control...and I need to have a
better understanding of
calipers, mics and bore
gauges...the order has been
placed...happy wrenching
Chums...Cheers!

I find it noteworthy that the Hastings rings have an installed end gap that is almost 150% larger than original 1950's OEM specification but exhibit the same manufacturing tolerance range of .007. Three questions jump to mind:
  • [*:3023cb50a6]Is Hastings manufacturing and QA so bad they missed their target by that relatively massive margin?[*:3023cb50a6]Is it possible Hastings engineering has decided that the metallurgy and/or design of their current rings requires a bigger installed end gap?[*:3023cb50a6]Is it possible the rings you received are for some other application and/or have been mislabeled/boxed at the factory or distributor?[/list:eek::3023cb50a6]Did you discuss this matter with Hastings technical support?

    TOH


  • A quick check of Hastings website indicates they want more clearance on the top ring than originally specified by Ford. Their [u:3023cb50a6]minimum[/u:3023cb50a6] for that ring is almost the old [u:3023cb50a6]maximum[/u:3023cb50a6] They want even more gap on the second. And for hypereutectic pistons the minimum gaps are even bigger. I would really like to know what their technical support had to say about your out of the box gaps. If you do call them I'm guessing they will want to know individual top and second ring clearances for all cylinders. Price of a refund might be worth the time spent on a call.

    TOH
 
Those are some great
questions Dan, ones that I
have not yet addressed but in
tend to.... In response to
question 3, that could
certainly be the case and
that crossed my mind
immediately... And although I
see where you are going with
question two.. my response
to Hastings would be why'd
they not make any notations
to that effect in the very
limited installation
instructions if that were the
case. Moreover, wouldn't
most people utilizing their
rings be looking at a Ford IT
manual regarding specs?...
Correct me if I am wrong, but
is not ring gap a balance
between allowing for heat
expansion and minimizing
compression loss? Again, one
ring was the full 11
thousands over the limit...
Not an insignificant
amount... In any event I'm
going to give Hastings a call
on Monday and will post back
here what they tell me...
Thanks again for the help and
the thoughts Dan, always
appreciated!
 
(quoted from post at 12:29:15 02/16/20) Those are some great
questions Dan, ones that I
have not yet addressed but in
tend to.... In response to
question 3, that could
certainly be the case and
that crossed my mind
immediately... And although I
see where you are going with
question two.. my response
to Hastings would be why'd
they not make any notations
to that effect in the very
limited installation
instructions if that were the
case. Moreover, wouldn't
most people utilizing their
rings be looking at a Ford IT
manual regarding specs?...
Correct me if I am wrong, but
is not ring gap a balance
between allowing for heat
expansion and minimizing
compression loss? Again, one
ring was the full 11
thousands over the limit...
Not an insignificant
amount... In any event I'm
going to give Hastings a call
on Monday and will post back
here what they tell me...
Thanks again for the help and
the thoughts Dan, always
appreciated!

I suspect those rings are sold to fit more than just the L-head so shop manuals are probably not going to be Hastings source of info. Were there no end gapping instructions in the box with the rings?

I could not find the page I originally read but here is one with some interesting genric information. According to it the SAE recommendation for compression ring end gap is .006 per inch of piston diameter. For the L-head that yields:

.006 x 3.1875 = .019

Checking End Gap

TOH
 
The rule of thumb on ring gap is that too loose causes slight compression loss (much less than one would expect) along with a very slight increase in combustion gases getting past the top ring. An increase in carbon buildup between the top and second ring is possible, but not assured.

Too tight a ring gap can cause excessive wear and even seizure. Scored cylinder walls and ruined pistons are likely.

Given the alternatives, which would you prefer?
 
Me personally?....would prefer an end gap in accordance to the OEM specs ranges....unless I had compelling reasons to wing it..thus far..I have not....going by recommended specs has NEVER done me wrong....but that is is just me!!
 
(quoted from post at 22:31:34 02/16/20) Me personally?....would prefer an end gap in accordance to the OEM specs ranges....unless I had compelling reasons to wing it..thus far..I have not....going by recommended specs has NEVER done me wrong....but that is is just me!!

This is my last $.02 on this topic.

The OEM recommendations in your FO4 are for parts and materials in use 80 years ago and you are installing new parts made from new materials and with new performance characteristics. In my opinion that is a compelling complication when a question like this arises.

Hastings has a good reputation for quality rings and I would need a compelling reason to believe their rings were manufactured with 2X more end gap than appropriate when installed in new virgin block bores. If in doubt about that out of the box clearance I would talk to Hastings technical support not an internet forum populated with old fogies like me ;-)

TOH
 

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