Crazy Overheating Issue, Part Deux - The Burping Block

Recap from part 1: '46 2N suddenly began overheating an spilling over coolant upon warm up. Only to settle itself if turned off and let to sit a couple of minutes.
- Original suspect was sticky t-stat due to BarsLeak. System drained and refilled, tractor allowed to run at temp for a while. All info available says this should of cleared BarsLeak. And new other discovery allows for questioning of sticky t-stat issue, but still not cleared.
- Others suspected tstat in backwards. But we had already cleared that potential due to 9-12 months of perfect performance and still have notes from original installation. Plus, I can feel through the hose by squishing it. Confident that's not issue.

Ok, finally had a very short window of opportunity this weekend to take another gander at this overheating issue. Usually, because of time constraints and ADD, I go do other things while I let her settle. This time I stayed and paid close attention. It was very cold Sat morning, the temp gauge never got past 160 before she overspilled - caught me off guard this time. But, that may be due to the exposed metal adapter the temp gauge lead goes into giving a false reading due to low ambient air temp and being delayed in catching up to engine temp.

Immediately after shut off, there was quite a bit of gurgling and burping down in the block, and I could see air belching up into the radiator (suspect that's when the t-stat opened). On occasion, a good hard burp would spray out coolant. Kind of reminded me of my younger days after a night of hard beer drinking. She shows no sign of water vapor in exhaust on start up. Once she finished her unlady-like event, all was well.

Ideas?
 
Start by removing the T-stat, this will rule that issue out 100%, and also allow you to see coolant circulating in the radiator immediately at startup if the waterpump is working.

Let us know how it acts then.

Just because the T-stat is relatively new that doesn't prove it's not sticking or otherwise malfunctioning.
 
When I first got my 2N running, I was guilty of putting the T.stat in backwards. I got the same symptoms that you describe. I'm not saying you have yours in backwards, I'm just thinking your T.stat is not opening.
 
Check the new temp gauge probe. If it leaks coolant out, the wax motor on the tstat would have a small air pocket around it, delaying it's opening.

John
 
Did that. Not leaking. But, the 75 y/o hose necks are so pitted, I hate taking hoses on and off. Have to smear the appropriate type of gasket sealer on it, tighten really good, and cross my fingers. It doesn't leak at either the radiator or block necks either, but I've started to wonder if maybe when it starts to cool off and a temperature differential develops, while there is no water being pumped around causing pressure, if it sucks in air somehow then seals itself off. Kind of like when canning jars.
 
(quoted from post at 10:14:06 02/05/20) Did that. Not leaking. But, the 75 y/o hose necks are so pitted, I hate taking hoses on and off. Have to smear the appropriate type of gasket sealer on it, tighten really good, and cross my fingers. It doesn't leak at either the radiator or block necks either, but I've started to wonder if maybe when it starts to cool off and a temperature differential develops, while there is no water being pumped around causing pressure, if it sucks in air somehow then seals itself off. Kind of like when canning jars.
WO weeks & the thermostat hasn't been removed yet!?
You can't just talk the problem away, you know. :roll:
 
REMOVE THE THERMOSTAT............

If RAD HOSES are so old they are separating, the a restriction can block coolant flow.....

You have to start dismantling and eliminating.......

I'm a resent Owner 2-N....I had to get with it and replace coolant hoses........


Bob...
 
WO weeks & the thermostat hasn't been removed yet!?
You can't just talk the problem away, you know. :roll:[/quote]

Like you said two weeks ago, no fun in fixing it, when you can try to talk the problem away. He can't take the 15 minutes it would take, to at least eliminate what most likely is the problem. :(
 
I do not like risking causing more issues due to messing around unnecessarily with a 75 y/o machine... badly pitted necks, fragile radiator, etc.

I have ran all the checks suggested, to no avail. The hoses, tstat, etc., are all new from complete overhaul 9-12 mos ago. Less than just couple dozen hours on them. Tstat is in correct orientation. I do
understand the tstat could malfunction right out of the box, but, at this point, I don't think it is. Something else is going on causing air to build up in block.

Talk it away??? No, just like to be informed before jumping in. Mind working on the machine. Not at all - fun and always educational - never know what your going to find with machines this old.
 
I know what you mean. This girl was my first tractor nearly 30 years ago. Picked it up when I was just a little bit more naive. Thought I got a great deal. Then realized how bad she had been abused and neglected.

It took some work to get her running like she should. A lot of trial and error, and one heck of an education. This was well before I knew this website was here (probably before it existed??). After the first few mistakes, I learned to ask a lot of questions before messing up part B while trying to fix part A.

She's no parade queen. She works hard, and shows her wear. Normally runs like a top, hydraulics work like new. It always amazes me that a machine this old can still perform so well. Then again, I treat her well. Always maintain as should, and never ignore warning signs.

I know it is just a machine, and all in my head, but I've developed an affection for her and cannot consider getting rid of her. I suppose part of that is she has been a great tool for teaching my kids basic mechanics. Straight fuel and fire. No other garbage to get in the way.
 

We hear you, but you have to start somewhere and need to keep it simple. Removing the t-stat will let you know several things. The T-stat is bad, water pump is not pumping, or you have compression leaking into the cooling system. You have to start somewhere. As far as your pitting problem there are fixes for that.
 
I can squeeze the hose and feel the fluid movement begin at just north of 160 (PS: watch out for the fan). I can see the fluid circulating, in between the burps. I did not realize it was "burping" like
this when I submitted the original post.

Seems like there is some other blockage, after shut down vacuum causing a vapor lock, or, like said, compression leak.

I realize I am not addressing the problem straight on and taking shortcuts (some stupidly hazardous, ie: that fan). The problem is that I am in the middle of a major project - putting in 2 miles of fence
and clearing 50+ acres of heavy mesquite & rose hedge, all after normal work hours and dawn to dusk on weekends. I am using her as a mobile fuel delivery system (with 55 gal tank). Because of money
outflowing on rented dozer and other equipment, I do not have the luxury of time to haul her the 20 miles back to the barn for a true workup. Was more or less just seeing if anyone has had a similar problem
- for purposes of eliminating issues.

Other issue is that with the addition of the temp gauge adapter, there is a bit more to it than just yanking off a hose. Not hard, just more time consuming and much harder to get hoses on/off due to
clearance issues.

I am beginning to worry that it is a compression leak. But, I would of thought that would flow both ways. Another machine I had once with a gasket leak would puff out clouds of water vapor on startup. Not
happening here. However, also haven't noticed any loss of power. But, am not sure how obvious it would be. Would of thought that in lugging around 450 pounds of diesel, a compression leak would cause some
bogging.

I'll wait to post a followup after I get the opportunity to take all apart.
 
When the thermostat opens, wait a minute or two, shut it off and feel the outside of the radiator all the way around for cool spots. You can use a non contact thermometer for this as well. Just because you have air in the coolant doesn't mean it's a head gasket. You could be only using a small portion of your radiator to cool the coolant. If it is that a radiator shop can rod out yours and reseal of necessary if the cores are not too bad.
 
(quoted from post at 16:04:26 02/05/20) When the thermostat opens, wait a minute or two, shut it off and feel the outside of the radiator all the way around for cool spots. You can use a non contact thermometer for this as well. Just because you have air in the coolant doesn't mean it's a head gasket. You could be only using a small portion of your radiator to cool the coolant. If it is that a radiator shop can rod out yours and reseal of necessary if the cores are not too bad.
n this 8N, only the red part was hot.
EAq2YLh.jpg
 

(quoted from post at 08:35:13 01/21/20) '46 2N. Lately been having an issue wherein the girl overheats immediately after warming up. But, after turn off and sitting a minute, it cools down and runs perfectly.
Installed a thermostat for the first time last year (was missing, and I was oblivious). Wondering if this thing has gotten "sticky" or something.

I do have a temp gauge I put in last year also. I've noticed that initially, once it starts to heat up, it heats up very quick. Like, the needle starts to move and is pretty methodical to about 160, then
rockets up to around 190+ when she boils over. Once it she starts to operate correctly, stays under 160 deg.

Stated in his original post, all is well after it overheats. Meaning after the overheating opens the t-stat.
I don't think the radiator has anything to do with it or it would keep overheating when he starts to work it.
 
Have you considered preforming a cylinder compression test..?

Both when engine is cold...has not operated for 24 hrs....and again after engine is up to operating temperature...

Not suggestion compression is entering the coolant area...how ever..?

My Neighbor was commenting on coolant burping, etc., etc.,....he listened and tried all the diagnostics in a step by step methodical process...

One of the problems was a bad head gasket...removed head, installed different head after a dye penetrant inspection.....with strait edge head was less than .002 daylight between strait edge and head face..

No more coolant burping...

Neighbor sent me a snap shoot with verbiage.....Engine has been operating perfectly....and yes Cylinder compression is low...

Bob..
cvphoto4380.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:31 02/06/20) Have you considered preforming a cylinder compression test..?

Both when engine is cold...has not operated for 24 hrs....and again after engine is up to operating temperature...

Not suggestion compression is entering the coolant area...how ever..?

My Neighbor was commenting on coolant burping, etc., etc.,....he listened and tried all the diagnostics in a step by step methodical process...

One of the problems was a bad head gasket...removed head, installed different head after a dye penetrant inspection.....with strait edge head was less than .002 daylight between strait edge and head face..

No more coolant burping...

Neighbor sent me a snap shoot with verbiage.....Engine has been operating perfectly....and yes Cylinder compression is low...

Bob..
<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto4380.jpg">
O testing/diagnostics allowed here, only guessing and speculation, for weeks on end! :wink:
 
Machine is in the field, 20 miles from the barn. Trailer piled high with fence posts. Just trying to isolate a potential problem after running quicky checks on the obvious things. Other than running for
quicky checking tstat & flow purposes last Saturday, I've only ran her two-three times in the last two weeks. Both times less than a few minutes, just long enough to pump diesel into another machine, not
long enough to get temp up.

The guy helping me with fence couldn't work yesterday evening. So I had opportunity to take out the tstat last night, in a muddy field, in the dark.

Not tstat, just what my quicky "squeeze the hose north of tstat" test already suggested. Still same problem. Boils over, and will continue to as long as I let it continue to run. Or conversely, until the
spill over shorts out the distributor. Covered it with a plastic bag this time - so I could let her run a little longer - but lost poker face over fear of burning her up and killed the switch. Still appears
to be circulating while spilling over.

Turn off. Gurgle gurgle burp burp spew... Once it stops, restart, all is fine.

Did notice coolant flow seemed a little weak. Not sure if that is due to a pump issue, vapor lock in block, or some other blockage (i.e.: clogged radiator).

Did not feel any uneven places in the radiator. But, it is cold, so really hard to tell with numb fingers.

Plan now is to just lay out posts in order to empty trailer and just pray someone doesn't decide posts laying next to a road are public property for the taking. Then I can haul her back for a better
breakdown.
 
I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!
 
(quoted from post at 11:50:00 02/07/20) I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!

the problem is that they use two different lists of things to censor. classic view has one list, and modern has another.

they know they will lose users if they drop either view. but i can't think of any reason that this known issue hasn't been fixed long ago by using the same list for both.
 
(quoted from post at 12:06:54 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 11:50:00 02/07/20) I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!

the problem is that they use two different lists of things to censor. classic view has one list, and modern has another.

they know they will lose users if they drop either view. but i can't think of any reason that this known issue hasn't been fixed long ago by using the same list for both.
ah! They say that they will leave, but they won't.
 
(quoted from post at 12:12:02 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:06:54 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 11:50:00 02/07/20) I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!

the problem is that they use two different lists of things to censor. classic view has one list, and modern has another.

they know they will lose users if they drop either view. but i can't think of any reason that this known issue hasn't been fixed long ago by using the same list for both.
ah! They say that they will leave, but they won't.

well, u can debate that with them if u like :)

any idea why they simply don't use a single word censor list instead of two different ones?
 
(quoted from post at 12:25:33 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:12:02 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:06:54 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 11:50:00 02/07/20) I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!

the problem is that they use two different lists of things to censor. classic view has one list, and modern has another.

they know they will lose users if they drop either view. but i can't think of any reason that this known issue hasn't been fixed long ago by using the same list for both.
ah! They say that they will leave, but they won't.

well, u can debate that with them if u like :)

any idea why they simply don't use a single word censor list instead of two different ones?
o,on both.
 
(quoted from post at 13:17:45 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:25:33 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:12:02 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:06:54 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 11:50:00 02/07/20) I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!

the problem is that they use two different lists of things to censor. classic view has one list, and modern has another.

they know they will lose users if they drop either view. but i can't think of any reason that this known issue hasn't been fixed long ago by using the same list for both.
ah! They say that they will leave, but they won't.

well, u can debate that with them if u like :)

any idea why they simply don't use a single word censor list instead of two different ones?
o,on both.

I think they are maintaining two entirely different code bases with a lot more differences than just the content filters. There are plenty of implementations out there that provide more user flexibility than either Modern or Classic view but switching would probably doom a lot of legacy features like the archive search....
 
(quoted from post at 13:52:17 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 13:17:45 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:25:33 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:12:02 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:06:54 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 11:50:00 02/07/20) I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!

the problem is that they use two different lists of things to censor. classic view has one list, and modern has another.

they know they will lose users if they drop either view. but i can't think of any reason that this known issue hasn't been fixed long ago by using the same list for both.
ah! They say that they will leave, but they won't.

well, u can debate that with them if u like :)

any idea why they simply don't use a single word censor list instead of two different ones?
o,on both.

I think they are maintaining two entirely different code bases with a lot more differences than just the content filters. There are plenty of implementations out there that provide more user flexibility than either Modern or Classic view but switching would probably doom a lot of legacy features like the archive search....

in any event...
 
(quoted from post at 15:59:00 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 13:52:17 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 13:17:45 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:25:33 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:12:02 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 12:06:54 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 11:50:00 02/07/20) I have no clue as to what the problem is but that said, this site has a problem in that it has the classic view and the modern view and all posts do not show up on both all the time. One would think that one of the systems should just go away! MY RANT FOR THE DAY!

the problem is that they use two different lists of things to censor. classic view has one list, and modern has another.

they know they will lose users if they drop either view. but i can't think of any reason that this known issue hasn't been fixed long ago by using the same list for both.
ah! They say that they will leave, but they won't.

well, u can debate that with them if u like :)

any idea why they simply don't use a single word censor list instead of two different ones?
o,on both.

I think they are maintaining two entirely different code bases with a lot more differences than just the content filters. There are plenty of implementations out there that provide more user flexibility than either Modern or Classic view but switching would probably doom a lot of legacy features like the archive search....

in any event...

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 16:58:06 02/07/20)

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

TOH

you're welcome. any thoughts as to why two different word censor lists are used?
 
(quoted from post at 01:05:31 02/07/20) Have you considered preforming a cylinder compression test..?







It would be rare on a good runner a compression test would confirm it has a head gasket issue. I would wager over haft of the N's out there have a leaking head gasket you would never see it on a compression test till the gasket became so computerized.

I have many ways to check for head gasket issues one that will nail it and EZ to do on a N would be to apply air pressure to the cylinders... About 100 PSI will do it...




https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1191074&highlight=black

About the only guess are recommendation I can give from far far away is re-torque the head gasket it sure as ell will not hurt it...
 
(quoted from post at 18:04:16 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 16:58:06 02/07/20)

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

TOH

you're welcome. any thoughts as to why two different word censor lists are used?

No. You would hope the banned expressions were stored in a database table shared by the two different code bases but that does not seem to be the case. I am of course assuming the code bases share a common database andvthat may not be the case either.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 18:52:47 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 18:04:16 02/07/20)
(quoted from post at 16:58:06 02/07/20)

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

TOH

you're welcome. any thoughts as to why two different word censor lists are used?

No. You would hope the banned expressions were stored in a database table shared by the two different code bases but that does not seem to be the case. I am of course assuming the code bases share a common database andvthat may not be the case either.

TOH

Another data point. I posted two responses to a message in the 134 oil thread. I was reading that message in Modern view and using quote to reply. Neither reply would show in modern view. A third attempt using reply worked fine. Apparently something in the quoted content was killing my posts yet the original post displayed fine. I am getting really tired of battling these problems.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 12:27:07 02/09/20)

Apparently something in the quoted content was killing my posts yet the original post displayed fine. I am getting really tired of battling these problems.

TOH

yes.

bob posted a link to TSC's website using classic view. that post displays properly in both classic and modern view, and the link functions correctly in each. but, when that link is quoted, it gets converted to (dare i type it?) ex.tur.null_link and the alarms go off. needless to say, that's not anything modern view does out of the box.

:roll: :roll:
 

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