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Electric power steering for my 8N

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JF in MI

01-13-2020 13:26:13




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This is a 2009 Toyota Prius power steering unit and module I adapted onto my 8N. The pictures show the Ford column tube cut off at the box and the inside of where the tube was machined out to fit a CR 8060 seal at this new location. After the Ford column shaft was cut off, leaving about an inch exposed, I welded up an adapter made from a piece of tube, to fit over the old shaft, welded to the end of a cut Toyota U joint connector from the Prius lower column extension. Part of the 8N body support work had to be cut away to clear the power unit and I also had to heat up and pound out (rather than just cutting away) some of the instrument sheet metal to also clear the unit. The throttle linkage also had to be relocated about an extra inch to the right to clear. I welded up an adapter to bolt the power unit (using the Koyo mounting surface bolt holes) to the 8N body support that is normally bolted to the 8N steering box. The final "challenge", as it were, was to figure out a way to attach an antique American steering wheel onto a Japanese column. The middle section of the Koyo column, where I had to shorten it to, has a serrated shaft of similar diameter to the Ford shaft albeit a much more coarse serration compared to the old Ford shaft. The wheel would not slide over the new column. I had to cut a section off the Koyo shaft to shorten the overall column so it would be the same height as the old one. I started thinking about the piece I removed and sharpened one end then used it as a broach tool by sticking it in the hydraulic press and forcing it through the steering wheel hub. It cut a new pattern into the old wheel. All I then had to do was tap the center hole in the column shaft to 7/16" threads to bolt the wheel on. Worked like a charm.


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JMOR

01-19-2020 22:13:20




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeIf your shop were that many square feet, it would likely be 'that neat'.. :)



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gears

01-19-2020 18:14:58




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
What happens to amp draw if you hit the horn while pressing the brakes AND the blinkers are on? :)

Nice looking machines JF. Wish my shop was that neat.



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Hobo,NC

01-17-2020 09:23:42




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
I did not say it was a requirement...

Its more something to keep in mind iffin' an issue does arise...
I did state a 65 amp alt will do the job BUT all yer ducks need to be lined up in a row.... A 65 amp gm 10si is a overkill for most all situations its the standard conversion alt it cost no more to up from 35 amps to 65 and the most common bolt on we use...
Wheres the pix of your plastic car we like pix...

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JF in MI

01-17-2020 10:36:30




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Hobo,NC, 01-17-2020 09:23:42  
The same one I posted of what has the "Fake" generator in it. My other Ford in the background.



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Hobo,NC

01-17-2020 07:06:52




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
I had my doubts EPS would pull anywhere close to its rated max of 60 amps unless something went way wrong.
Belt size does not matter as long as it is configured proper for the application and 100% efficient. Where issues arise is when wear sets in and the ability of the configuration to support the load of the driven part.
Let s go back to my Zane Thang the extra load it put on the belt lead to belt slippage overtime it worked well other than occasionally the battery would be so low it failed to crank the engine over fast enough to start I had to jump it off. This issue with this among 100 s of low battery issues I have dealt with over the years has taught me to first confirm the health of the belt and drive system The amp gauge read it was charging my voltmeter showed 13.2V my next step check the belt drive system even tho all seamed well it had enough slippage it was undercharging the battery (13.2V) A good habit I have accumulated is to first check the belt drive system on any condition that would affect components driven by the belt. I added a extra belt tensioner to it under the alt belt between the alt and crank pulley my issues were resolved and the voltage stayed constant over 14V : ).

My concern was the long term effect it would have on the charging system all you ducks have to be in a row for the belt drive to maintain battery health overtime it was something to keep an eye on if you suffer from a random low battery.
I have somewhat the same issue with my tow truck it uses an electric over hydraulic wheel lift no matter how many battery s I run on it and there size are how big the alternator is you better keep that dang belt banjo string tight are it will undercharge the battery because of the extra load the lift puts on them to recharge the batteries. This is the only issue I see with adding EPS its demand on the charging system with a belt drive system that was not designed for extra loads
I would check static battery voltage every now and again and confirm it was 12.6 before I started it, I would get in the habit of pushing on the alternator fan to keep up with belt tension and ware. All if this is to stay in front of a problem before it runs me over EPS is dependent on it WINK WINK

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JF in MI

01-17-2020 07:29:38




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Hobo,NC, 01-17-2020 07:06:52  
I haven't touched and have not had belt tension issues with my EPS Corvette over the last year, but wouldn't checking things like that or oil level be considered routine maintenance? EPS draw is momentary not constant. I'm bewildered by this 'tensioner' requirement thing. How did a gagillion motor vehicles manage to start over the last century?



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TheOldHokie

01-17-2020 06:52:25




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I didn't say content didn't count. Minus one from the judges.
I have been on a debate team albeit a while ago and one of the "rules" is logic trumps all. If you start tossing out facts without logical application and relevance you will lose more than one point.

TOH



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JF in MI

01-17-2020 07:00:31




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-17-2020 06:52:25  
Sounds like we have a master debater here.;)



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TheOldHokie

01-17-2020 06:19:12




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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I'll leave this debate to you and Hobo but I find the test data interesting.

A 35A alternator and you are getting 18A discharge with the steering box output immobilized and still pulling hard on the steering wheel. Sounds like you are maxing the stalled motor out at 35A + 18A = 53A which is remarkably close to the full power rating of the motors I have documented but well short of their uncontrolled stalled draw. That would suggest the motor controller has the situation well in hand and is limiting the current to the stalled motor to avoid frying it. It would be interesting to see how long the controller allows that full power draw to continue if you were to chain the wheel over for an extended period of time but that test might wind up costing you some bucks. I am of course talking about the motor not steering gears or tie rod ends. Keep up your fluid intake and stay warm ;-)

TOH

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JF in MI

01-17-2020 06:35:55




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-17-2020 06:19:12  
No, the alternator feeds through the ammeter and the steering does not so it reads only what is being replaced into the battery as the result of the draw. That would be only 18 amps and because the voltage remains the same it indicates that there is no additional drain above that. No one seems to get this. The steering is drawing only a fraction of what the alternator can replace. The voltage regulator is doing the job it is supposed to.

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JF in MI

01-17-2020 05:51:50




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
From Hobo; >When you have to jump start it a few times and can not figure out whats the deal the amp meter show's its put'N out amps it must be a bad battery... When in fact the belt is slip'N and undercharging the battery that's why I am a voltmeter lubber it tells the truth...
Just fer the ell of it put a voltmeter on it how does the EPS affect it when under a load... This is not a debate on which is best if your alt cannot keep the voltage up that will turn into a problem over time<

OK, here we go again. Just to pacify or anger some (depending on your point of view) I dragged my weary a$$ out into the freakin' freezing (14 deg F) hangar and fired up the 8N with a voltmeter attached to the battery. After starting it up the voltage read 14.2 and eventually settled at 14.3 after the ammeter settled from the initial starter drain replacement. I then turned the steering wheel and held it hard over in lock while I read both gauges. The ammeter read about 18 amp load and the voltage dropped to 14.2 and held there. After a while I let go of the wheel, the amp draw went to zero and the voltage, within a few seconds, went back to and stabilized at 14.3. I might mention that during this exercise the steering box didn't split open, the battery didn't explode, the wiring, alternator or belt did not smoke or squeal but my fingers did get numb.
I might add that I got this stupid EPS tractor idea from the identical unit I installed, over a year ago, on my '60 Corvette with the V8 sitting over the front wheels, the miniature Kubota alternator on it with the tiny pulley and whimpy 3/8" belt. I've been driving this car to shows all last summer and the battery never failed to start the car once. How do you explain that?

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TheOldHokie

01-17-2020 05:00:01




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Socratic debate AKA rational argument (Humanities 101) relies on the application of logic to human language propositions in order to ascertain the truth or falseness of assertions involving those propositions. Syllogistic logic originated with the ancient scholars of India, China, and Greece (Aristotle) and was the basis for early reasoning and debate. Syllogistic logic was formalized as predicate logic in the late 19th century and was taught as Philosophy 202 - Introduction to Logic when I was in school. It is the underpinning for modern day scientific reasoning and mathematical proof. I am sure you remember this stuff:



Sophistic debate as characterized by Plato and Aristotle however is "the deliberate use of fallacious reasoning, intellectual charlatanism and moral unscrupulousness" to confuse the argument, promulgate found less propositions, and fool the listener into believing things that are not true. It is the antithesis of Socratic debate and a modern day example for that type of debate is arguments based on FUD.

Plato and Aristotle where probably overly harsh in their assessment of the Sophist's arguments but they got the distinction between the two types of debate dead right.

TOH

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Ultradog MN

01-17-2020 06:29:41




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-17-2020 05:00:01  
Lol
Yes, I learned that stuff too.
Sophistry was explained as baffling them with BS.
Socratic debate was described as Kabuki theater where the style and form of an argument are as important as the content.
But go follow a college debate team for a few days and you will see them cramming more on the content of the upcoming topic than the form.
Modern debate depends on you being able to present facts according to a prescribed set of rules. It's ancester is the Socratic method but it is far removed from that and content scores higher than form.
Your post was just more obfuscation with a bit of Sophistry thrown in.
Thanks for the memories though.

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JMOR

01-17-2020 02:43:48




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeAbsolutely correct HOBO, debates are based on option, not facts. Go with facts, they prevail. When it works, it works!



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Ultradog MN

01-17-2020 02:56:45




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JMOR, 01-17-2020 02:43:48  
"debates are based on options".

I assume you mistyped and meant opinions?
If so you are entirely incorrect.
The more facts you present in a debate the more you are able to sway opinions.
That's Freshman Humanities 101 stuff.



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JF in MI

01-17-2020 04:18:34




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Ultradog MN, 01-17-2020 02:56:45  
You don't need no stinkin' facts to sway opinion. Haven't you been watching what is going on in Washington for the past few years?



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Hobo,NC

01-16-2020 19:03:16




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
When you have to jump start it a few times and can not figure out whats the deal the amp meter show's its put'N out amps it must be a bad battery... When in fact the belt is slip'N and undercharging the battery that's why I am a voltmeter lubber it tells the truth...
Just fer the ell of it put a voltmeter on it how does the EPS affect it when under a load... This is not a debate on which is best if your alt cannot keep the voltage up that will turn into a problem over time :wink:

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TheOldHokie

01-16-2020 17:01:14




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Funny you should mention the Simplicity. I have two 2007/2006 Kubota 24 HP lawn tractors with 60" decks and one has a rear power bagger with 3 front suitcase weights. Both have EPS and steer easily but the older one with weights is noticeably easier. I dont think it has anything to do with the weights - just that much variance in the EPS controllers.

TOH

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TheOldHokie

01-16-2020 15:48:57




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Had to delete your table - quoting classic view content displays the HTML. Interesting data and a thorough well done test. Clearly no loader on that tractor. Now all we need is for you to install EPS and repeat ;-)
Thanks
TOH



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deanostoybox

01-16-2020 16:33:14




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-16-2020 15:48:57  
"Clearly no loader on that tractor. "

Nope, no loader. If I need a loader I have easy access to a John Deere 310D with MFWD and extendable dipper stick:-)

"Now all we need is for you to install EPS and repeat ;-)"

Yea well, the 8N steers easily enough. I am more interested in running it on wood gas or charcoal or used motor oil or something like that. Save some $$ on gasoline. 60+ acres to mow:-) Had a Simplicity Landlord with a tiller and a front blade on it, about a 1964 model best I could tell, now that was HARD to steer and would have been a viable candidate. Got the easy steering 8N and never used the Simplicity again. Guy came by and had to have it. Took the battery out of the welder and drove it on the trailer for him.

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deanostoybox

01-16-2020 14:28:27




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Did the experiment. Left front tire is 6.00x16, right is 5.50x16. Both are mounted with offset toward spindle. Both are three rib tires. Steering wheel turned lock to lock. Gets harder to turn closer you get to lock. Guessing that has to do with camber. Guessing easier to turn left due to difference in tire size.









Tires inflated to 10 PSI
SurfaceTurn RightBack to CenterTurn LeftBack to Center
concrete30-6025-2025-6025-20
gravel30-6025-2025-6025-20
grass30-6025-2025-6025-20
Tires inflated to 26 PSI
SurfaceTurn RightBack to CenterTurn LeftBack to Center
concrete15-2520-1515-3020-15
gravel25-4525-2025-4020-20
grass25-4525-2025-4025-20

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JF in MI

01-16-2020 15:50:45




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to deanostoybox, 01-16-2020 14:28:27  
What are the numbers?



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deanostoybox

01-16-2020 16:03:23




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-16-2020 15:50:45  
Sorry, that is in foot pounds to the nearest mark on an old Craftsman beam type 1/2" drive toque wrench.



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TheOldHokie

01-16-2020 07:48:24




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I should have though to ask earlier but the gray cells are not what they used to be. What if any data is on the motor data plate? I would expect some basic RPM and current numbers.

TOH



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JF in MI

01-16-2020 08:47:00




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-16-2020 07:48:24  
No data plate. Just a Denso label with hard to read part number and 'made in Japan'.



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Hobo,NC

01-16-2020 07:44:36




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
A man that could adapt EPS should add a belt tensioner like a Timing belt tensioner... I did that to a Zane Live Thang : )..

https://www.carid.com/preferred-components/engine-timing-belt-tensioner-assembly-mpn-t60059.html

I see no reason to to up the alt a standard 65 amp with a good belt set up should do it for most users... The only reason to up it is cuzz you can : )....

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JF in MI

01-16-2020 08:15:53




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Hobo,NC, 01-16-2020 07:44:36  
I don't get it. The belt is plenty tight with the normal alternator/generator adjusting setup from the factory. Why would I want to add a tensioner?



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TheOldHokie

01-16-2020 05:27:10




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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These Toyota retrofits are typically fused at 60A. If that blows you have pushed the motor AND wiring past its rated capacity.

Cost and energy savings were definitely the initial motivation for EPS in passenger cars but it's way more than that now. It is an essential component for steer by wire and autonomous vehicles.
TOH



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Phil N

01-16-2020 04:58:58




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Saturn-Vue-Chevy-Equinox-Electric-power-steering-electronic-controller-box-EPAS/142461763061?hash=item212b61fdf5:g:DRQAAOSwr7tZfvQP

Click on above. I used one of these with a Saturn VUE EPS on a street rod with manual rack and pinion steering. It works great and you can dial in the amount of assist while driving the vehicle. It's the way to go in this application. A tractor with FEL might be a different story because of heavier and more constant loads on the EPS unit. On a tractor, I would use a 50 or 60 Amp automotive or marine circuit breaker. If it trips the breaker, you're overloading the EPS. Obviously you'll need a 12V conversion with a 100 Amp alternator. A properly mounted idler pulley will be needed to provide more angle of wrap of the V belt around the alternator pulley to reduce belt slippage. The EPS is a torque amplifier. It just does it with an electric motor instead hydraulically with a pump etc. The reason for an EPS in a car is it is more energy efficient because it only uses energy on demand from the driver's input through the steering wheel. It is also cheaper to manufacture.

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JF in MI

01-16-2020 05:50:14




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Phil N, 01-16-2020 04:58:58  
> The reason for an EPS in a car is it is more energy efficient because it only uses energy on demand from the driver's input through the steering wheel. <
No way you need a 100 amp alternator simply for the reason you stated above. Maybe if you're going to turn the wheel to lock then bungie it there but then the module would kill the power. My tractor has a 35 amp alt and when I steer the ammeter only dips for a fraction of a second and not enough to show a "recharge" rate like it does after you start the engine.

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JMOR

01-15-2020 20:09:28




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeTOH, you are wasting you time! This guy has said repeatedly that he is interested in "debate" and he needs no facts for that ! A few years ago he ragged on Bruce unmercifully about wanting originality , but now......wants originality vs EPS. Kinda like today's climate.....if you are for it I'm against it and if you are against it, I'm for it! Some "people' simply need to be ignored. :idea:

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Ultradog MN

01-16-2020 08:10:34




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JMOR, 01-15-2020 20:09:28  
Thanks jmor.
I always choose my words carefully and purposely used debate instead argument quarrel, fight, etc.
Debate implies a civil dialogue where people can offer different, even opposing views.
Next time I'll use a more appropriate word, as some here have little to offer but sniping and bile and civility is not a part of their character.



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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 18:11:18




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Some more ipsi dixit assertions for your consideration - did I mention I made my living with them? Here is a link to the the web page for Johnson Electric's line of "high torque" electric power steering motors. You may have heard of Johnson Electrics , one of the big boys in the automotive electrics game and a major supplier of OEM components.

[Url=https://www.johnsonelectric.com/en/features/high-power-electric-power-steering-motor]Johnson Electric 12VDC EPS Motors[/url]

You will find links to data sheets for the three different motor platforms on that page but you will have to register to download them. To save you the trouble I will summarize the pertinent data:

EPS-B67, max operating torque 2450 mNM@53A, stall torque 4900 mNM@106A

EPS-B72 - max operating torque 3225 mNM@64A, stall torque 6448 nNM@126A

EPS-B78 - max operating torque 3700 mNM@70A, stall torque 7500 mNM@140A

For the metrically challenged that works out to operating torques of 1.8, 2.4,and 2.7 lb-ft. The corresponding stall torques are 3.6, 4.8, and 5.5 lb_ft.

The B67 model is in the same class as the GM motor we discussed earlier. If I remember my 10th grade physics correctly with a 10:1 worm drive on the output shaft that motor stalls at 36 lb-ft of gear box input torque and a locked rotor current draw of 106A. The motor controller will have shut it down well short of that. The other motors are way bigger than we would find in a Prius or Vue but even they are hardly gear busting behemoths.

TOH

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Ultradog MN

01-15-2020 18:08:17




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
I'm reading about eps.
Its hard to find much info about output torque on them.
Ive made a few inquiries, sent some emails.
I will post if/when I have something for you guys.
This debate is Not settled. It's just getting started so if you don't like learning new stuff look out.
It took us 15 years to peaceably talk about 12 volts and or EI here without causing a hellful ruckus. But we got through it and we all learned something.
Toh, I don't understand why you bothered to post those links.
I found zero info applicable to our discussion. My first thought was obfuscation but I will give you the benefit of the doubt...
JF, thank you for building the adapter and doing the test. Good info for a start.
Now we just need someone to do that for us with a loader on his N or while plowing. Something that takes a little more muscle.
Establish some real values for my hypothetical 100, 150, 200 ones.

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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 15:50:48




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Just relax and let the medicine work - sometimes it takes days of dosage before you begin to feel the results :shock:
TOH



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JF in MI

01-15-2020 15:40:15




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
OK, you guys are REALLY pi$$ing me off now. You've FORCED me to fabricate an adapter to put on the steering wheel to measure the torque required to turn it with no power applied. It takes 220 inch pounds on dry concrete (I might add that I have what would be referred to as high floatation [wider] front tires and not the standard narrow 8N type). I will NOT test it in the grass because I won't see any for another 3 months and I will NOT park it out in a puddle to let it freeze overnight to test in the morning. I hope you're all happy now. I didn't want to do anymore fabricating and wanted to be left alone with my bottle. So much for rest for the weary.

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Tom/Idaho

01-15-2020 15:36:32




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
WOW! Being the owner/installer of EPS in my 8N I most certainly do agree with Hobo,NC and TOH. This very same unit is being installed in a great numbers in many off-road racing and antique vehicles. Take a few minutes and Goggle this site ePowersteering.com. Mine is not the only tractor shown.
Tom/Idaho



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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 14:35:17




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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I spent decades in a profession where research and fact finding was job one. When I post here I try to base my assertions on same. I typically spend time researching my assertions before I put them in print for the world to see in perpetuity and in this case I have spent more than a little time at that. Here is an example of that research - a simple explanation of the basic operation of EPS with some quantifications for the doubters. It is GM specific but generally representative of the type, size, and power of EPS steering motors.

General Motors Electric Power Steering (EPS)

Per that GM document their steering motor is a 12V DC brushless permanent magnet motor with a current rating of 58 amps max. That current is instantaneous and cannot be sustained for more than a second or two without the risk of motor damage and in any event isn't going to make enough torque to bend or break any steering gear or tie rod end I ever saw. Less you accuse me of another ipsi dixit assertion here is a link to a reference that will walk you through the math of guestimating the torque output of such a motor:

Motor Constants

Maybe that reference isn't the sort of thing you are looking for. . As you can see the calculation is a little complicated so maybe we go this way. Here is a link to typical 12V DC right angle gear motor of the type used in that EPS system:

Typical 12 VDC Permanent Magnet Gear Motor

This motor has a maximum current rating of 16A, no load speed of 500 RPM, rated torque of 8.5 in-lbs, and a speed of 250 RPM at rated torque. Not exactly gear busting numbers. And neither is the output of that slightly larger 58A GM motor. Both are going to need a lot of help from the EPS reduction drive to get anything close to what a human could produce at the steering wheel.
I will repeat my hopefully not so ipsi dixit now assertion : a typical EPS steering motor is going to stall when presented with an immobilized steering gear and locked rotor current in the motor is going to skyrocket. As described in my earlier reference the motor controller is going to see that spike and immediately back the power off or shut it down completely to prevent frying the motor. Input torque to the steering gear is never going to get much more than what a human could pull up without assist and nothing is going to get broken except possibly the motor.

You can find many more credible references corroborating my "ipsi dixit" assertions in greater detail if you would like to do a little research rather than spew FUD. And if you do avail yourself of some real research on this matter you will quickly discover the steering motor is the weak link in this arrangement, the one that will be the first to fail if overloaded, and the one that needs to be and is protected by the motor controller. The inconvenient for you facts are all there if you bother to look.

TOH

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JMOR

01-15-2020 14:22:41




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeyou are welcome!



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Hobo,NC

01-15-2020 12:59:29




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Poor lubrication/contamination is the killer all has been and always will be...



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JMOR

01-15-2020 10:59:31




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeConclusion: nail pounding is kinda slow, so I'll make noise by flapping my gums. :roll:



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Ultradog MN

01-15-2020 11:04:15




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JMOR, 01-15-2020 10:59:31  
We know we can always count on you to make meaningful contributions here jmor.



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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 10:42:39




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Hey, more views than this forum normally sees in a week :)
TOH



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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 08:47:50




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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This mangled piece of bloody meat is no longer recognizable as a horse.

I know that it cannot and will not output more than the road wheels require to operate. That is the only "road sensor" needed in this application. One would also hope the same sensor that keeps his foot of the dash is smart enough to know when a wheel is jammed and cannot operate.

And even if he doesn't I am quite sure the EPS motor will stall and the controller will disable the motor long before the gear box is damaged same as it does on a Prius. Again - to protect the motor which even on a Prius is far more vulnerable to damage from this scenario than the steering gear.

TOH

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Ultradog MN

01-15-2020 10:55:50




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-15-2020 08:47:50  
"I know that it cannot and will not output more than the road wheels require to operate."

And if your wheels are frozen into soft ground or in a hole with a load on your loader?

"I am quite sure the EPS motor will stall and the controller will disable the motor long before the gear box is damaged same as it does on a Prius."

What is your proof of that?
How much torque will it input before before it stalls? Is a Prius stronger or weaker than an N?
Will it input more or less than the N's draglinks will handle? Or the sectors?
Got any numbers for us?
Is that How they built these tractors in the first place? Or Toyotas for that matter?
Joe, "It'll work, I tell ya."
Mike, How do you know it will work?"
Joe, "It'll work! Here hold my beer."

You are pulling this stuff out of the air and giving it to us as facts.
It's all ipsi dixit - assertions without proof.
Maybe it'll work great. Maybe it won't. Maybe it's strong enough to bust your steering box.
I just know that Ford never installed their power assist Behind the sectors and I'm skeptical of anyone who ignores that fact.

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Gantt

01-15-2020 08:33:24




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
this is more lively than the
"which oil is best" threads on motorcycle forums. :lol:



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JF in MI

01-15-2020 09:14:01




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Gantt, 01-15-2020 08:33:24  
I apologize for this mess. All I wanted to do was make a "How I did it" post. I never thought it would turn into the maelstrom it is. This is why, years ago, I took the advise of Bluto (from Animal House) and 'started drinking heavily'.



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Ultradog MN

01-15-2020 10:57:52




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-15-2020 09:14:01  
I don't look at as a maelstrom.
I see it as a learning experience.



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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 07:36:17




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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This dead horse is getting rather bloody from the repeated beatings. Input torque is governed by the road wheels and is the same with or without EPS.

TOH



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Ultradog MN

01-15-2020 08:27:25




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-15-2020 07:36:17  
Actually,
Input torque is governed by a sensor.
Usually one that knows enough to not put his foot against the dash and pull on the wheel with both hands.
We still don't know how much torque your "no road sensor required" eps inputs.
It was engineered for a different application.



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Ultradog MN

01-15-2020 07:18:07




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
The crux of this conversation is input torque. Plastic gears or otherwise, input torque is important and as of yet we have no basis for comparison.
I have overhauled a bunch of twin arm Ford steering boxes, both manual and power assist. Here are a few of my observations.
To begin with they are all nearly identical - from the late 8N through 1983.
A manual box always shows more wear than a ps box. Sector bushings are worn, adjusting screws on the end caps are adjusted in deeper because the sector teeth are more worn, balls and the ball nut are more worn.
A power steering box uses the exact same bottom end as a non ps box. They do very little 'work'. The work is done in front of the ps box. Those always show very little wear on the internals. Basically you just need to replace the seals, go through the hydraulic control valve and you are done.
You can always tell a manual box that was used on a loader tractor. No more adjustment on the adjusting screws, sector teeth you could shave with, twisted sector shafts, non reuseable balls and ball nuts, bent steering arms and cracked housings.
These are all symptoms of too great of input torque and of course abuse and impacts.
The draglink in front of the steering cylinders is also much heavier than non ps draglinks. Going back to my numbers (100,150, 200) here if you guys do the experiments and can tell me what the comparative inputs are for the eps and assure me that the torque input (and torque resistance to an impact) is not over my hypothetical 150 I will stop arguing against this eps add on - at least on mechanical grounds.
In the mean time, I'm always up for a good debate.

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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 06:04:54




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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The motor controller already limits current draw to a design maximum AND duration. This is to address situations where the wheels are jammed (e.g parked against the curb, obstruction, or in a ditch) and can not turn sideways. Without limiting logic the operator could keep the wheel pulled over causing the motor to stall and overheat to the point of failure. IIRC the limit i have seen documented is generally around 65A and maximum duration is just a few seconds. This protects the motor not the gearbox or steering rack because the motor can not produce enough torque to damage them.

Let's not lose track of the essential point. The input power needed to turn the wheels is governed by road conditions. The steering motor and torsion bar shaft are sized to match the output of a normally sized human. The maximum input power to the steering box is going to be roughly the same as what that human could grunt up without EPS. The engineers have thought these issues through and gone to considerable length to protect the motor, the shaft, and the syeering gearbox/rack from overload. If you believe the nay sayers a Kia Metro or Toyota Prius steering box/rack must be a lot more robust than the one on the old "over built" for plowing fields 8N Ford tractor.
TOH

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JF in MI

01-15-2020 06:19:43




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-15-2020 06:04:54  
Best points yet.



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Ultradog MN

01-15-2020 03:33:40




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Knowing how much torque that is needed to turn the wheel under "normal" circumstances would be an interesting experiment. Ie, light tractor on pavement or on grass, etc.
More important would be some specs on severe circumstances like trying to steer out of a frozen rut or trying to steer with a loader full of dirt. The human mind kind of instinctively knows - or learns - that to steer the tractor under severe conditions requires the tractor to be moving first.
I don't think the eps is going to be able to compute that.
For the sake of conversation I'm going to throw out some hypothetical numbers here.
*Normal steering with a light tractor = 100 ft lbs.
* Severe duty with a partial bucket of dirt = 150 ft lbs.
* Extreme duty with heavily loaded bucket or steering out of a frozen rut = 200 ft lbs.
If your eps was set up to produce a maximum of say 150 ft lbs of torque you wouldn't break anything though you would wear things much more quickly.
If the eps was set up to produce 200 ft lbs you would bust up your steering pretty quickly.
A guy would have to do a lot more experimenting than the two tests mentioned above. You'd need to figure out "normal" "severe" and "extreme" and then figure out how much torque can safely be input via the eps.
For what it's worth, Ford did put limitations on their power assist.
The wishbone style 600/800/3000/etc used a pump that produced about 750 psi.
Larger tractors and industrial models which were more robust used a pump that produced about 1100 psi. So there are limitations even on a tractor that applies the power assist IN FRONT of the sector gears.
And don't forget that "in front" part folks as that is crucial to this debate.
Lastly, a guy could easily make a device that fit over the steering wheel hub and applied the torque to the spokes. Weld a socket on it so you can steer with your torque wrench to get some numbers.

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JF in MI

01-15-2020 05:17:03




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Ultradog MN, 01-15-2020 03:33:40  
OK, I realize that your numbers are, as you say, hypothetical but to avoid confusion to some others please remember that what I measured was inch pounds (I had to torque the 3/4" bolts on my car lift to 130 foot lbs, with a longer arm torque wrench than a steering wheel and darn near pulled my arm out of its socket). But I see what you're getting at and a input torque limiting device may be easier than anyone thinks. In hydraulic steering the limiter is the pressure pop off valve. As I pointed out with this electric unit the amp draw goes up with the amount of work it has to do. I would think that putting in a predetermined circuit breaker would do precisely the same thing (limiting flow albeit electrical).
Now as far as making a torque wrench adapter for the steering wheel; You guys are KILLING me! I've had enough fabricating for one week and the only work I want to do is reduce the volume of my bottle of rye.

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JF in MI

01-15-2020 05:26:44




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-15-2020 05:17:03  
One more thing I might add that may quell your concerns about excess input torque. The driven gears in these worm gear electric power steering units are plastic. How much load do you think can be applied to them even if the electric motor had unlimited power?



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TheOldHokie

01-15-2020 00:25:09




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Pardon me if I seem to be beating a dead horse but I like to understand the minutia of things. A little research cleared up my confusion.

The Saturn Vue and similar steering motors have an integral ECU that requires multiple CAN bus inputs in order to function. Those signals are used by the steering ECU to bias the base assist level derived from the torque sensors. Without them the motor will not operate at all and you get manual steering via the column shaft. The aftermarket "controller" is just a dumb module that fakes those CAN bus signals to get the motor to run. A rheostat is commonly used to control the level of the fake CAN bus signals and hence the level of bias applied to the torque sensor data. This allows the operator to dial in more or less assist to suit their preference for feel.

Some Japanese units use a remotely mounted ECU and some of those will operate with the ECU disconnected. This is the "fail safe" mode you describe and it provides a default level of assist similar to conventional hydraulic PS. In this mode the internal torque sensor data is used by the motor controller to adjust assist to match varying road conditions and maintain a fixed steering wheel resistance for the operator. These units only need power connections to operate in this mode and in the event they lose power they operate like a traditional manual steering shaft.

TOH

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JF in MI

01-15-2020 05:02:57




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-15-2020 00:25:09  
Yes, yes, and YES! Finally! Just one last clarification for those who've never seen one. TOH is referring to the MAIN computer that operates the engine and a number of other things. Modern cars have multiple (like a dozen) smaller computers (call them processors, modules or what ever) that control subsets of equipment (example; radio, door locks) and this type of steering is one of them. Some steering will operate just with their specific module (like mine) and others require an "assist" from the main computer. The aftermarket electronics provide that extra "fake" assist which also allows manual adjustment of the power input. Lots of hotrod aftermarket suppliers offer pre-packaged kits like this for $$$$.

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Royse

01-14-2020 20:14:07




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
"This unit and controller was out of a 2004 through 2009 Toyota Prius."

"but again these big units seem to be reasonably priced and plentiful."

I had to think about these statements for a few minutes.

2004-2009 still seem like "newer" vehicles to me. But then, they
are 10 to 15 years old, so I'm sure plenty have been wrecked.

Where does the time go? LOL
To make it improve a ~70 year old tractor?
Is that priceless, timeless, or both?

Either way, it's awesome!

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TheOldHokie

01-14-2020 16:38:27




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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If you think about it the torque sensor can simulate road feel all by itself. I think that was it's original purpose and that is why I wanted you to test grass vs concrete. The motor controller logic "should" be able to maintain a constant steering effort over varying ground conditions with no need for any additional sensor data. It's just a shaft torsion value that can be maintained directly using a simple IC. No computer needed. I'd still like to see that test when weather permits. I bet you could figure out a way other than the bolt to attach that torque wrench to the wheel if you gave it a little thought.

I believe that simple feedback model quickly evolved into something else. Modern cars have lots of data, a network bus with lots of bandwidth, and ECUs with plenty of processing power. So the engineers started to create a conputational model that used data like road speed, stability control sensors, wheel slip, wheel angle, etc to try and make the steering motor smarter than the driver. In other words I am not sure the "speed sensor" line is used solely for that purpose in today's cars. I suspect it has evolved into a general purpose biasing signal to the IC in the motor controller. It is likely managed by the ECU and is the computationally derived result of a model that incorporates many operational factors and more sensors than just road speed. But I could also be full of it ;-)

TOH

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JF in MI

01-14-2020 18:29:55




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-14-2020 16:38:27  
Yes, I'm sure there are more things speed data is used for but I was trying to "dumb it down" for the purposes of using these units to add power steering to other vehicles, of different manufacture, not having PS in the first place. The point I'm trying to make is that not all electric PS modules will work for this, at least not without spending a pant load of more money.



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Lance-W

01-14-2020 15:59:38




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
:) I have a couple of questions.

Will you share the part numbers you used? Especially the EPS unit?

After mounting it sticks forward into the toolbox area or the battery area? (There's not a good angle of that in the pictures)

Did you think about having it stick out towards the rear (the shifter might be in the way but I think your knees would be far enough away?) or towards the side? I understand you tried to hide it under the hood but just wondered what else you considered?

Thanks,

Lance

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JF in MI

01-14-2020 18:44:40




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Lance-W, 01-14-2020 15:59:38  
Positioning it straight forward is a way of doing a minimum of hacking up the body work as I saw it. Yes, if you faced it backward you would hit the shifter. The motor could be angled to the left a bit but gains are sort of minimal. Facing it to the right hits the oil gauge. This unit and controller was out of a 2004 through 2009 Toyota Prius. As I mentioned earlier this unit is unnecessarily beefy for this application and in retrospect I should have kept looking for a smaller (easier to fit) unit with "failsafe" mode but again these big units seem to be reasonably priced and plentiful. Be advised that the most important thing is to fabricate the unit to box adapter perfectly line centered to avoid a potentially destructive wobble.

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TheOldHokie

01-14-2020 13:10:29




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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AFAIK this vintage of system all use a torsion bar for the steering shaft and the torque sensor is mounted on rings around it so you have mechanical fail safe in the event of any electronic failure.

I was also under the impression the IC used in the motor controller also performed rudimentary control of assist level based on the steering wheel shaft torque sensors. Increases in shaft twist automagically generates more assist at the IC level. That basic adaptuve control is fine tuned for road speed, steering wheel angular velocity, and similar variables by the vehicle or steering specific ECU. Do I have that division of logic wrong?

TOH

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JF in MI

01-14-2020 14:30:16




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-14-2020 13:10:29  
No, you have this correct. The difference in the torque sensors determines the amount of power supplied. The harder you turn the steering wheel the more power is applied. I think the confusion comes in about the speed sensor so I'll try to explain. The way the torque sensor works is that the driver "feels" pretty much the same resistance on the steering wheel no matter how much resistance is working against the tires. As the vehicle speeds up the caster, however slight, wants to keep the car tracking straight down the road and "feeling" stable. People complained (I'm assuming) that at faster speeds the steering would become too sensitive so what the computer does is drop the power response so the "feel" (effort put in) is greater. The object being, I assume, is that lightly resting your hand on the wheel at 70 MPH won't cause you the inadvertently steer off the road.

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TheOldHokie

01-14-2020 10:22:12




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Dang you are quick - I think you like doing this stuff ;-) That result is interesting in and of itself. With no EPS 15 lb-ft isn't moving the wheels but with EPS they move at just about 1. Where do you have the boost set on the controller?

TOH



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JF in MI

01-14-2020 12:09:34




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-14-2020 10:22:12  
Actually I got curious to see if I still owned one of those "Bend-O-beam" torque wrenches and that's what got me going. Once again; I do not have any 3rd (required) party electronics added to the module to change the setting. That's why I bought this type of unit (I would have preferred a smaller one but couldn't be sure they have 'fail safe' mode) because the factory compatible controller (compatible with that type of torque sensor) falls into a default power setting shortly after being turned on when is sees no speed sensor. There is no adjustment. Some different model unit/controllers have no default setting and if it doesn't sense a vehicle speed sensor will not work at all unless you spend another $50 on 3rd party electronics (Ebay) which is used to "fool" the computer into thinking it sees a speed sensor set at a certain "speed" and applies power accordingly. Only then can you adjust the power output by making the controller "think" the vehicle is at whatever speed you dial in (slow speed for more power, fast speed for less).

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TheOldHokie

01-14-2020 09:41:10




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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That may confuse some people so let me clarify a bit. The steering shaft is a solid connection to the steering box and the torque sensors are in parallel. In the event the EPS unit loses power the steering operates exactly as it did without it. The worm drive free wheels and you are back to factory manual steering.

I would be interested in a simple easy to obtain metric for obtaining the level of assist you are getting. Parked on concrete with wheels straight ahead put a torque wrench on the steering wheel nut and measure the torque needed to turn the wheel 90 degrees to the right. Repeat with EPS unplugged. Move tractor to grass and repeat as above to see how intelligent that aftermarket controller is.

TOH

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JF in MI

01-14-2020 10:13:45




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-14-2020 09:41:10  
OK TOH, your wish is my command (sort of). I put a torque wrench on the bolt holding the steering wheel on and was up to 175 inch pounds with the power off on dry concrete. The wheels weren't turning yet but the bolt kept tightening down and I was afraid of stripping it so I went no further. I'm only guessing that the wheels may have started turning in the 200s somewhere. With the power on it takes 20 inch pounds to turn the wheels on concrete. Can't do a grass test because we don't have any, just snow at the moment.

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JF in MI

01-14-2020 10:19:32




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-14-2020 10:13:45  
Oh, and BTW. The controller is factory Toyota and is one of the type that goes into "failsafe" mode (after about 6 seconds) and does not require any 3rd party electronics.

The "broaching" tool does NOT make a perfect cut with one pass which is the way I wanted it because it leaves kind of an interference fit which was exactly what I was looking for.



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TheOldHokie

01-14-2020 07:59:39




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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The EPS assist is a simple right angle worm drive applied to the solid steering wheel shaft. No change in ratio.

TOH



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Ultradog MN

01-14-2020 07:51:41




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
JF,
Am thinking about this while I'm working here and have a question that I don't remember being addressed in these EPS threads. How many turns from lock to lock does it take to steer an 8N from full left to full right?
And how many does it take to do the same with the eps unit? If the number of turns is not the same what did you do to correct things so it doesn't either understeer or over steer your wheels. Is the unit adjustable that way?
If they were close to the same you could maybe live with it. If not a guy might adjust things somewhat by shortening or lengthening the steering arms but that would be another piece of the puzzle that he'd want to figure out.

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JF in MI

01-14-2020 08:50:58




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Ultradog MN, 01-14-2020 07:51:41  
As TOH says it is a worm gear drive setup. If no steering box was connected to the output shaft you could keep turning the steering wheel infinitely. The mechanism that controls it is an electronic version of a hydraulic spool valve like those used in old fashion (I hate having to refer to it like that) integral power steering box. The input shaft has a sensor on it and is attached to a small torsion bar. The other end of the torsion bar is attached to the output shaft which also has a sensor on it. When you turn the steering wheel the resistance of the tires causes the torsion bar to deflect and thus the two sensors are now out of alignment. The control module (computer) reads this misalignment and applies whatever power and direction is necessary to bring the sensors back in alignment. The beauty is here; you can buy third party electronics that, with the turn of an adjustment knob, tells the computer that the difference in the sensors is greater or less than it actually is giving more or less power assist. In a car this task is usually taken by a vehicle speed sensor applying more power while parking and less at highway speeds. As a side note I noticed that while parked on dry concrete it takes about 15 momentary amps to steer. Once rolling at speed it takes less than 4 and zero when going straight.

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Ultradog MN

01-14-2020 08:57:05




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-14-2020 08:50:58  
Thank you.



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TheOldHokie

01-14-2020 06:58:02




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Cant see a lot wrong with your faculties. The big danger is what happens to a brain when you dont exercise it hard.

I am curious about your broaching operation. That cutoff shaft does not strike me as a very effective broaching tool - all one diameter with a sharpened leading edge? I would not expect that to cut full depth in one pass.

TOH

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TheOldHokie

01-14-2020 03:09:26




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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An absolutely horrible analogy that continues to misstate the physics that everyone else has by now grasped:

The power (torque) input to the gearbox to turn the road wheels is the same with EPS as it is without it.

TOH



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JF in MI

01-14-2020 06:26:20




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-14-2020 03:09:26  
TOH; it is what it is. You have to stop think about this so hard. You might prematurely wear out your brain. Look what happened to me ;)



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Ultradog MN

01-14-2020 04:41:43




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-14-2020 03:09:26  
As you wish.
Inputting more torque or pressure than a machine is designed for is not a prescription for longevity.
As for the topic at hand - inputing the power assist behind the sector gears - I shall continue to advise against doing it and you will probably continue to say it is a great idea.
And never the twain shall meet.



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JMOR

01-13-2020 20:49:07




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeVery impressive work!!!



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Royse

01-13-2020 20:32:59




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Nice work! Now you could put that loader back on it. LOL



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JF in MI

01-14-2020 05:39:11




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Royse, 01-13-2020 20:32:59  
That belongs to you now.



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TheOldHokie

01-13-2020 19:40:15




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
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Exactly :idea:
TOH



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Hobo,NC

01-13-2020 19:16:05




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Makes you wonder if a power nailer weakens the nail..



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Ultradog MN

01-14-2020 01:09:43




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Hobo,NC, 01-13-2020 19:16:05  
Poor analogy Hobo. Nail don't care.
Putting 150 psi to your air nailer is more like it. Wears it out.
They like to run about 90 psi max.



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Hobo,NC

01-13-2020 17:24:01




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Nice job Njoy the EPS...



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tracy brown

01-13-2020 17:20:57




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
I like it. I have an 800 series I'm putting back together and thinking about doing something like this.



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TheOldHokie

01-13-2020 16:47:19




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Thanks for sharing and nice job of grafting it in - some clever metal work. The others that have gone this route report it works really well with no problems to date and they love it. It's a major modification and not for the faint of heart but traditional PS has been a really expensive upgrade and with the low cost and steering improvement you get with these EPS units I expect to see more and more of them coming down the line ;-)

TOH

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Ultradog MN

01-13-2020 16:09:15




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 13:26:13  
Some random thoughts:
*I believe you will prematurely wear out your steering box with that unit.
*I personally see no reason to reinvent the wheel. Not when Ford built a power assist steering system just a few years later and installed it on a tractor that already had way more features than an N.
*My bet is that when that tractor gets sold (and they all get sold, eventually) that unit grafted on there will knock at least 1/3 off the value of the tractor.
*It's your tractor to do with as you choose.

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JF in MI

01-13-2020 18:34:32




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to Ultradog MN, 01-13-2020 16:09:15  

Points taken. I don't quite understand the 'premature wear' thing. Example; if you're making sharp turns between trees your choices are a: turn the wheel harder to avoid the tree or b: hit the tree. The load on the box is the same (to miss the tree) just the input effort is not. Arthritis being what it is, I'm more concerned about wearing out my shoulders. Unfortunately this is the tractor I have, not one with an already 'invented wheel'. For a total outlay of $150 whatever this tractor can't do I'll use one of my others.
You may be right on a loss of value at sale however I'll be dead by then and scientific studies have indicated that most dead people don't care that much about monetary gain or loss.

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Ultradog MN

01-14-2020 02:05:38




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 Re: Electric power steering for my 8N in reply to JF in MI, 01-13-2020 18:34:32  
"don't quite understand the 'premature wear' thing."

Ford never put the power assist Behind the sector gears. Only in front of them. There is a reason for that.

"You may be right on a loss of value at sale however I'll be dead by then and scientific studies have indicated that most dead people don't care that much about monetary gain or loss."

I do hope both you and your PS last a long time. And in the end, Ns are cheap anyway so 1/3 of not much is well, not much.

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