Kirk-NJ

Well-known Member
Up for discussion. Need a Turbo for your N tractor? Well this company is making them. A wee bit pricey. No connection

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(quoted from post at 03:45:46 01/05/20) Up for discussion. Need a Turbo for your N tractor? Well this company is making them. A wee bit pricey. No connection

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Quaint but people have been strapping turbos on flatheads for a long time - bolt on horsepower. At $1600 it's rather expensive horsepower on a tractor worth about the same. And for pulling you still have to put that horsepower on the ground with some weight.

You can buy a generic turbo with integral waste gate for $100 if you want to roll your own. Should be a nice learning experience :roll:

TOH
 
My 9n has about 150 HP so not worried about a turbo just bought it up for discussion. Or in case somebody didn't know you could add it. It will probably Go the same way as the dual
exhaust.

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A few years back I saw an article somewhere a guy had taken a carb from a Jubilee, turned it around backwards and installed a smog pump from a big block Chevrolet on an 8N. He claimed it really perked it up. That would be a very cheap set-up, If it worked.
 

Is that a V-6...? Could you tell us a little bit about the swap...what engine is it? I like the idea of a shorter engine and relocating the fuel tank.
 
Chevy 4.3 V6. It fits quite nice In there. You don?t have to extend the
hood, radius rods or steering rods. Also has Sherman step up and
it?s fast
 
(quoted from post at 23:38:41 01/05/20) I didn't know those little fours would turn fast enough to take advantage of a turbo

Depends on the geometry and design of the turbo. Turbos designed for gasoline autos are optimized for "high speed" boost and generally start to spool up around 2500 RPM. Diesel turbos spool quite nicely at lower engine RPM. The purpose with diesels as here is to boost low speed torque. Exactly how much boost you can get out of a gasoline fueled L-head using that sort of turbo and more importantly whether it is worth the expense is a valid question. I would suggest that only experimentation holds the answer. That $1600 experiment is a bit more than my lab budget and likely not the end of the experinentation but I expect he will find some pullers that feel orherwise.

TOH
 
PT Barnum said it best, "There's a sucker born every minute." One can buy a an N with a few implements for that money. Besides, an N will pull a IHC Farmall, JD, or Kubota out of the mud on it's own. Reminded me of the 'dual exhaust' gimmick from a few years ago claiming to increase your N horsepower significantly.


Tim Daley(MI)
 
It would be a little hard to miss in an stock antique class pull Probably would have the power the compete in an unlimeted class.
 

Oh yes, the 4.3 has good reputation. I was thinking that or maybe one of the V6 engines (2.9 or 4.0) used in the Ford Ranger pickup. Thanks for the reply.
 
(quoted from post at 08:52:06 01/06/20) PT Barnum said it best, "There's a sucker born every minute." One can buy a an N with a few implements for that money. Besides, an N will pull a IHC Farmall, JD, or Kubota out of the mud on it's own. Reminded me of the 'dual exhaust' gimmick from a few years ago claiming to increase your N horsepower significantly.


Tim Daley(MI)

So do I understand you correctly - you think turbo aspiration will not measurably boost the power output of the L-head engine? Where does "significant" begin for you - 5%, 10%, 20%, 30% or higher?

In case you are wondering I am confident forced induction will produce a measurable increase in power. My issue is the value of a $1600 investment for modestly more power from a $1500 antique machine. I think the only place that makes any sense is in antique tractor pulling competitions where you are constrained by class rules. In that environment people spend insane amounts of money to gain any edge. It's all about winning.....

TOH
 
Didn't say it wouldn't boost power just though it wouldn't be enough to run against V6/V8 in unlimted class
 
(quoted from post at 10:27:07 01/06/20) Didn't say it wouldn't boost power just though it wouldn't be enough to run against V6/V8 in unlimted class

My question on power was directed at Tim. Dont follow pulling and know the rules - are you saying this would be illegal in a "stock" or modified class where it might have value?

TOH
 
It definitely be illegal in our club and all the clubs that I pull with. I pull a stock 8N with a HI/Lo Sherman. Even that has been questioned a few times. I have won a lot of trophies with this tractor, a lot of first place trophies, against a lot of hot super c farmalls and olivers and ACs. It is not all about power. You have to get it to the ground.
 
(quoted from post at 10:52:59 01/06/20) It definitely be illegal in our club and all the clubs that I pull with. I pull a stock 8N with a HI/Lo Sherman. Even that has been questioned a few times. I have won a lot of trophies with this tractor, a lot of first place trophies, against a lot of hot super c farmalls and olivers and ACs. It is not all about power. You have to get it to the ground.

Sounds like tractor pulling rules might be largely club specific and subject to debate at that level. Would your rules allow you to put a bigger carburetor on your N?

And yes - you have to get the power to the ground which is why things like a V8 ford conversion seem equally miss-guided.

TOH
 
You would have to go by each clubs rules. I?m in a club that won?t let
you use IH suitcase weights on a ford
 
I work in the Diesel fuel injection and turbocharging business. This is a classic example of overthinking, over engineering and over spending we see here everyday.

Some guy, calls in to get a price on a retrofit turbo kit for his pre-war Ford, John Deere, Farmall, Cockshutt et al. We tell him there is no such kit and they usually just ask, "well can you tell me a turbo that will fit it". The truth is any turbo you can adapt to fit it any application is the one that will fit it. But that does not mean you'll have a fully functioning turbo boosted engine afterwards. Properly applied turbochargers were engineered together with/as the engine development process, not after.

We all pretty sure these guys are all compensating for something besides a lack horsepower but what could that be? :wink:
 
(quoted from post at 17:52:52 01/06/20) I work in the Diesel fuel injection and turbocharging business. This is a classic example of overthinking, over engineering and over spending we see here everyday.

Some guy, calls in to get a price on a retrofit turbo kit for his pre-war Ford, John Deere, Farmall, Cockshutt et al. We tell him there is no such kit and they usually just ask, "well can you tell me a turbo that will fit it". The truth is any turbo you can adapt to fit it any application is the one that will fit it. [b:4cbb5ea827][color=red:4cbb5ea827]But that does not mean you'll have a fully functioning turbo boosted engine afterwards.[/color:4cbb5ea827][/b:4cbb5ea827] Properly applied turbochargers were engineered together with/as the engine development process, not after.

We all pretty sure these guys are all compensating for something besides a lack horsepower but what could that be? :wink:

Really? How do you explain the tens of thousands of aftermarket turbo and supercharger conversions that produce excellent results? Here is a picture of a TR6 belonging to Lee Jansen (another old Hokie) with DIY MegaSquirt fuel injection and a Garrett turbocharger. The turbo charger was hand chosen for its .63 AR turbo scroll and .60 AR intake scroll which is a good match for the 2.5L Leyland engine. Not exactly rocket science engineering - there are lots of online calculators that will help you with that. Mr Jansen's TR6 went from 150 to over 200 BHP on the dyno. I would call a 33% gain in power "fully functional". It wasn't an inexpensive project but he can easily afford it and he now owns a damn quick TR6.

TOH

engine_no_intake_side.jpg


underhood_rhs.jpg
 
I've turbocharged several NA engines, but not a tractor engine. Air cooled VWs, water cooled Porsche, an old Fiat, and a couple of Nissans. Both previous posters are correct.

DIY turbocharging requires plenty of pencil work, and then it also requires plenty of test cases(trial and error). Most who start down this path go way too big on A/R. There are now some good guides out there on selecting A/R, and they should be checked. If it says too big, then it's too big!

As mentioned also, there's more to bolt-on for best performance. For air cooled VW, it's real easy to change compression ratio with shims. But, that changes the valve geometry, so back to the drawing board. More important is the cam lobe design and separation. 'turbo' cams are much different than NA cams.

As it relates to a 8N, I would go grab a turbo off a Toyota MR2, VW TDI, or if you could find one, the turbo off a old Pontiac. Then start fiddling with carb size, jetting, and the modulator bypass settings. I would not spend $1600 on a kit. Used turbos are cheap on ebay.

The TDI unit would maybe be a good start as it's designed for lower speed engines like the 8N. But - it might be too big already!

It's fun to mess with but hard to gauge any gains unless one has a shaft dyno, or access to shaft dyno. Tractors do not do well on wheel dynos.

The other issue I have with 8N turbo is the wear on the rest of the engine. Recall that tractors are governor set power rather than short term direct pedal throttle set power. It would be real easy to overheat or over stress an 8N with a high power setting governor. It only takes a short time before the water in the low pressure cooling system to start boiling near the top of the block. When that happens, you'll be tearing it down for head or piston work, and maybe bearing work as well.
 
(quoted from post at 22:00:21 01/06/20)

As it relates to a 8N, I would go grab a turbo off a Toyota MR2, VW TDI, or if you could find one, the turbo off a old Pontiac. Then start fiddling with carb size, jetting, and the modulator bypass settings. I would not spend $1600 on a kit. Used turbos are cheap on Ebay

I think that is where I came in about two pages back :shock:

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 16:22:32 01/06/20)
(quoted from post at 17:52:52 01/06/20) I work in the Diesel fuel injection and turbocharging business. This is a classic example of overthinking, over engineering and over spending we see here everyday.

Some guy, calls in to get a price on a retrofit turbo kit for his pre-war Ford, John Deere, Farmall, Cockshutt et al. We tell him there is no such kit and they usually just ask, "well can you tell me a turbo that will fit it". The truth is any turbo you can adapt to fit it any application is the one that will fit it. [b:7d43102845][color=red:7d43102845]But that does not mean you'll have a fully functioning turbo boosted engine afterwards.[/color:7d43102845][/b:7d43102845] Properly applied turbochargers were engineered together with/as the engine development process, not after.

We all pretty sure these guys are all compensating for something besides a lack horsepower but what could that be? :wink:

Really? How do you explain the tens of thousands of aftermarket turbo and supercharger conversions that produce excellent results? Here is a picture of a TR6 belonging to Lee Jansen (another old Hokie) with DIY MegaSquirt fuel injection and a Garrett turbocharger. The turbo charger was hand chosen for its .63 AR turbo scroll and .60 AR intake scroll which is a good match for the 2.5L Leyland engine. Not exactly rocket science engineering - there are lots of online calculators that will help you with that. Mr Jansen's TR6 went from 150 to over 200 BHP on the dyno. I would call a 33% gain in power "fully functional". It wasn't an inexpensive project but he can easily afford it and he now owns a damn quick TR6.

TOH

What pre-war tractor is this engine powering?

engine_no_intake_side.jpg


underhood_rhs.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 08:19:45 01/07/20)
(quoted from post at 16:22:32 01/06/20)
(quoted from post at 17:52:52 01/06/20) I work in the Diesel fuel injection and turbocharging business. This is a classic example of overthinking, over engineering and over spending we see here everyday.

Some guy, calls in to get a price on a retrofit turbo kit for his pre-war Ford, John Deere, Farmall, Cockshutt et al. We tell him there is no such kit and they usually just ask, "well can you tell me a turbo that will fit it". The truth is any turbo you can adapt to fit it any application is the one that will fit it. [b:5f89e4882c][color=red:5f89e4882c]But that does not mean you'll have a fully functioning turbo boosted engine afterwards.[/color:5f89e4882c][/b:5f89e4882c] Properly applied turbochargers were engineered together with/as the engine development process, not after.

We all pretty sure these guys are all compensating for something besides a lack horsepower but what could that be? :wink:

Really? How do you explain the tens of thousands of aftermarket turbo and supercharger conversions that produce excellent results? Here is a picture of a TR6 belonging to Lee Jansen (another old Hokie) with DIY MegaSquirt fuel injection and a Garrett turbocharger. The turbo charger was hand chosen for its .63 AR turbo scroll and .60 AR intake scroll which is a good match for the 2.5L Leyland engine. Not exactly rocket science engineering - there are lots of online calculators that will help you with that. Mr Jansen's TR6 went from 150 to over 200 BHP on the dyno. I would call a 33% gain in power "fully functional". It wasn't an inexpensive project but he can easily afford it and he now owns a damn quick TR6.

TOH

What pre-war tractor is this engine powering?

engine_no_intake_side.jpg


underhood_rhs.jpg
/quote]
 
(quoted from post at 08:19:45 01/07/20)
(quoted from post at 16:22:32 01/06/20)
(quoted from post at 17:52:52 01/06/20) I work in the Diesel fuel injection and turbocharging business. This is a classic example of overthinking, over engineering and over spending we see here everyday.

Some guy, calls in to get a price on a retrofit turbo kit for his pre-war Ford, John Deere, Farmall, Cockshutt et al. We tell him there is no such kit and they usually just ask, "well can you tell me a turbo that will fit it". The truth is any turbo you can adapt to fit it any application is the one that will fit it. [b:db2c27d4b5][color=red:db2c27d4b5]But that does not mean you'll have a fully functioning turbo boosted engine afterwards.[/color:db2c27d4b5][/b:db2c27d4b5] Properly applied turbochargers were engineered together with/as the engine development process, not after.

We all pretty sure these guys are all compensating for something besides a lack horsepower but what could that be? :wink:

Really? How do you explain the tens of thousands of aftermarket turbo and supercharger conversions that produce excellent results? Here is a picture of a TR6 belonging to Lee Jansen (another old Hokie) with DIY MegaSquirt fuel injection and a Garrett turbocharger. The turbo charger was hand chosen for its .63 AR turbo scroll and .60 AR intake scroll which is a good match for the 2.5L Leyland engine. Not exactly rocket science engineering - there are lots of online calculators that will help you with that. Mr Jansen's TR6 went from 150 to over 200 BHP on the dyno. I would call a 33% gain in power "fully functional". It wasn't an inexpensive project but he can easily afford it and he now owns a damn quick TR6.

TOH

What pre-war tractor is this engine powering?

engine_no_intake_side.jpg


underhood_rhs.jpg
/quote]

Its obviously not powering a tractor of any vintage. It is an example of successfully fitting a turbocharger to an engine long after the initial naturally aspirated engine design was done. Something you said was not feasible.

Doing the same with a prewar tractor engine where you don't have to worry about turbo lag on acceleration and between shifts is probably an easier design task. The guy with the 8N kit has plenty of other engine examples on his website.

If you want I can provide some images of forced induction coinversions on a 2L Triumph TR4 engine ThAt is the same engine Harry Ferguson used in his 1948 TO-20. The Rodger Roadracers were doing that with all manner of turbo/superchargers and LBC's in the 50's. Dont know of any TO20 tractor examples but I certainly wouldn't rule the existence of one out.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 07:36:06 01/07/20)
(quoted from post at 08:19:45 01/07/20)
(quoted from post at 16:22:32 01/06/20)
(quoted from post at 17:52:52 01/06/20) I work in the Diesel fuel injection and turbocharging business. This is a classic example of overthinking, over engineering and over spending we see here everyday.

Some guy, calls in to get a price on a retrofit turbo kit for his pre-war Ford, John Deere, Farmall, Cockshutt et al. We tell him there is no such kit and they usually just ask, "well can you tell me a turbo that will fit it". The truth is any turbo you can adapt to fit it any application is the one that will fit it. [b:9677c7cfdf][color=red:9677c7cfdf]But that does not mean you'll have a fully functioning turbo boosted engine afterwards.[/color:9677c7cfdf][/b:9677c7cfdf] Properly applied turbochargers were engineered together with/as the engine development process, not after.

We all pretty sure these guys are all compensating for something besides a lack horsepower but what could that be? :wink:

Really? How do you explain the tens of thousands of aftermarket turbo and supercharger conversions that produce excellent results? Here is a picture of a TR6 belonging to Lee Jansen (another old Hokie) with DIY MegaSquirt fuel injection and a Garrett turbocharger. The turbo charger was hand chosen for its .63 AR turbo scroll and .60 AR intake scroll which is a good match for the 2.5L Leyland engine. Not exactly rocket science engineering - there are lots of online calculators that will help you with that. Mr Jansen's TR6 went from 150 to over 200 BHP on the dyno. I would call a 33% gain in power "fully functional". It wasn't an inexpensive project but he can easily afford it and he now owns a damn quick TR6.

TOH

What pre-war tractor is this engine powering?

engine_no_intake_side.jpg


underhood_rhs.jpg
/quote]

Its obviously not powering a tractor of any vintage. It is an example of successfully fitting a turbocharger to an engine long after the initial naturally aspirated engine design was done. Something you said was not feasible.

Doing the same with a prewar tractor engine where you don't have to worry about turbo lag on acceleration and between shifts is probably an easier design task. The guy with the 8N kit has plenty of other engine examples on his website.

If you want I can provide some images of forced induction coinversions on a 2L Triumph TR4 engine ThAt is the same engine Harry Ferguson used in his 1948 TO-20. The Rodger Roadracers were doing that with all manner of turbo/superchargers and LBC's in the 50's. Dont know of any TO20 tractor examples but I certainly wouldn't rule the existence of one out.

TOH

I didn't say it wasn't feasable (adjective
possible to do easily or conveniently. That's you projecting.

I said it was expensive. Where a pre-war gas engine is concerned, I'd go so far to say that retro-fitting a turbo is dumb.
 
(quoted from post at 12:23:14 01/07/20)
I didn't say it wasn't feasable (adjective
possible to do easily or conveniently. That's you projecting.

I said it was expensive. Where a pre-war gas engine is concerned, I'd go so far to say that retro-fitting a turbo is dumb.
I do not engage in semantic debates so don''t waste your time trying to distract with one.

I do agree that a well done conversion is going to be "expensive" by pre-war tractor standards. But you went on to unequivocally say considerably more than that. Your exact words are highlighted in red below.

(quoted from post at 17:52:52 01/06/20)
[b:76d2231d13][color=red:76d2231d13]But that does not mean you'll have a fully functioning turbo boosted engine afterwards. Properly applied turbochargers were engineered together with/as the engine development process, not after.[/color:76d2231d13][/b:76d2231d13]

I did and will dispute that assertion. There are thousands of examples of [b:76d2231d13][color=red:76d2231d13]fully functioning turbo boosted engines[/color:76d2231d13][/b:76d2231d13] that were engineered and built long after the original normally aspirated engine was designed. People have and continue to do exactly that with remarkable success.

People also do "dumb" things with their tractors just because they enjoy doing it and that is OK with me. In fact I have been known to do some things that other folks think are "dumb" and "overly expensive" just because I found it fun to do.

TOH
 

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