12v starter solenoid

ssiron79

Member
Recently replaced the starter on my 41 9n. Starter worked great for about a dozen starts and now the drive won't disengage. I used a 6v solenoid (beings it was available locally). Should I have used a 12v solenoid and if so anybody have a part number.
My current setup is 12v with alternator and electronic ignition.
 
(quoted from post at 10:49:32 08/20/19) Recently replaced the starter on my 41 9n. Starter worked great for about a dozen starts and now the drive won't disengage. I used a 6v solenoid (beings it was available locally). Should I have used a 12v solenoid and if so anybody have a part number.
My current setup is 12v with alternator and electronic ignition.
941 9N never had a solenoid. Been modified? A 6v solenoid works just fine on 12v, however and start switch or solenoid will not be related to "drive won't disengauge", but could keep power on start motor after you release start switch. So what have you?
 
Well part of what you say is incorrect and I know it. I guess you missed the 12volt conversion part. Has not been modified to my knowledge. All 6volt components on the tractor have been removed now that I did the ignition upgrade. I thought my question was pretty straightforward. Simply need to if a 6volt solenoid will fry on a 12 volt system? The solenoids can weld their contacts together which cause the motor to continually spin from the research I have found.
 
(quoted from post at 11:49:03 08/20/19) Well part of what you say is incorrect and I know it. I guess you missed the 12volt conversion part. Has not been modified to my knowledge. All 6volt components on the tractor have been removed now that I did the ignition upgrade. I thought my question was pretty straightforward. Simply need to if a 6volt solenoid will fry on a 12 volt system? The solenoids can weld their contacts together which cause the motor to continually spin from the research I have found.
eah, I read the "12v conversion" part, but about all that means is that you probably now have a 12v baattery & likely an alternator set up for 12v. A 12v conversion does not necessarily mean that the manual start switch was replaced with a solenoid! So, folks need to know what currently exists if you want help. We do not read minds or have crystal ball.
 
Do you know the difference between a solenoid and manual starter switch?


2 and 9N?s did not come from the factory with solenoids. They all had mechanical starter switches. When you press the starter switch, it pushes a piece of linkage into the switch which manually closes the contacts and completes the circuit. Unlike a solenoid which electrically closes the contacts and completes the circuit.

Which do you have on your tractor?
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 11:49:03 08/20/19) Well part of what you say is incorrect and I know it. I guess you missed the 12volt conversion part. Has not been modified to my knowledge. All 6volt components on the tractor have been removed now that I did the ignition upgrade. I thought my question was pretty straightforward. Simply need to if a 6volt solenoid will fry on a 12 volt system? The solenoids can weld their contacts together which cause the motor to continually spin from the research I have found.

Friendly word of advice. You are new here so know who you are talking to and pick your battles carefully lest you wind up looking foolish. You have already received that answer and more in the earlier response. I suggest you re-read it and try to understand it because it is 100% accurate.

TOH
 

Again I am not trying to be a jerk but I simply needed to know about the solenoids. Ignition(key), push button, electronic ignition(distributor), alternator, and battery have all been changed as I thought was stated. I figured the solenoid welded closed and just wanted to verify my suspicions.
mvphoto41434.jpg

mvphoto41435.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 14:06:54 08/20/19)
Again I am not trying to be a jerk but I simply needed to know about the solenoids. Ignition(key), push button, electronic ignition(distributor), alternator, and battery have all been changed as I thought was stated. I figured the solenoid welded closed and just wanted to verify my suspicions.
mvphoto41434.jpg

mvphoto41435.jpg

Please take the time to get the nomenclature correct. I do not see any signs of a solenoid on the starter motor in your picture. Here is a picture of one that has a solenoid.

Your tractor should have a mechanical switch located on the back (engine) side of the steering column. An ordinary battery cable goes from it to the stud on the starter. That switch is mechanically actuated by a push rod attached to the neutral safety start button. I suppose it is theoretically possible that the switch is sticking/welded closed but unlikely that happened as a result of the 12V changeover. In any event it is easily checked with a continuity checker. Should be normally open and closes momentarily when the thump switch is held down. It should open again when the thumb switch is released.

TOH

v2980.jpg
 
Simply wanted to know if I needed a 12v solenoid and we have gone back and forth. This forum is generally very helpful but all of t hi is was unnecessary.
 
As I stated before EVERYTHING else has been changed over to include ignition, distributor, push button etc. to 12v. Locally all that was available is a 6v solenoid so that's what I used. It worked great until it did not. The first picture I sent was to show the drive is still engaged. I am really not trying to be rude but this exchange this far has been of no help. Just someone trying to prove a point.
 
OK, lets take this step by step.

You ask about a solenoid on a 9N.

As 9N?s don?t normally have solenoids, you were asked for clarification.

You then post a picture of a starter with no solenoid on it.

Because at no point did you say you had installed a solenoid and removed the mechanical starter switch.

The respondents to your question have been on this board for years and have nothing to prove to anyone.
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:24 08/20/19) As I stated before EVERYTHING else has been changed over to include ignition, distributor, push button etc. to 12v. Locally all that was available is a 6v solenoid so that's what I used. It worked great until it did not. The first picture I sent was to show the drive is still engaged. I am really not trying to be rude but this exchange this far has been of no help. Just someone trying to prove a point.
told you immediately that a 6v solenoid was fine on a 12v system & that bendix extended has nothing to do with solenoid. Making a point? Just answer the questions. You created this situation all by yourself. By the way you still haven't answered the question of whether the starter motor runs under electrical power when the start switch is released. Further, if folks here continue to try to help you, they will want to know how solenoid is wired (diagram), what is solenoid part number, has the engine been started with present setup? and likely more as it is revealed tooth by painful tooth.
 
So a solenoid doesn't make contact which sends power to the starter which in return makes the drive engage? It was wired correctly like I stated it started and worked for a dozen or more starts. I have used it for a week or so. This last time when I went to start the tractor once it started the drive did not disengage. Maybe the brand new drive went bad I don't know. I thought as though it was still trying to start until I turned the key off. I tried a couple more time thinking something was stuck possibly. Well solenoid ended up going completely bad since it won't do anything now. This is why I asked about a 12volt solenoid. I am guessing that is not my issue if a 6v will work in a 12v system. I am guessing there is something faulty with the new starter. The tractor is on our property and not readily available for me to do simple checks that you're asking for.
 
Yes in the very post I said I put a 6v solenoid on because it was readily available at TSC. I also stated a couple time everything had been converted. I am sorry for all confusion
 
This last time when I went to start the tractor once it started the drive did not disengage. Maybe the brand new drive went bad I don't know. I thought as though it was still trying to start until I turned the key off. Well, there is a big difference between, "the drive did not disengage" and "...though it was still trying to start until I turned the key off." You see, here we are again , in the dark, because if it were wired as this Ford tractor should be, the "key" on or off would make no difference in whether the starter would activate or not.Without knowing what you have and how it is wired, I really can't offer much help. I'm don't do much guessing.
 
I get that the key doesn't have to be on for the starter to roll over but it does stop the spark which in return killed the tractor. So I guess that kind of answers that question. It is all wired correctly. I was using the tractor. So I get that I am new and may not be explaining everything the way its needed but I have been treated as an idiot and been on the defense from the start. I was guessing that solenoid was the issue which apparently is not the case. I think the drive itself is bad or some other problem. The new starter drive would not disengage which lead me to believe it was still trying to start. Now after all this I don't believe that to be the case. I think the drive is stuck open or hanging up maybe on the ring gear? Shoot I don't know I guess I will try and figure it out. Thanks for all your help and I apologize for all the confusion. Sorry I felt as if I was being talked down to.
 
It is the engine starting and turning the drive faster than the starter motor that causes the drive to retract/disengage the flywheel ring gear.
 
I know the process. This process does not happen which was leading me to believe the starter was still trying to spin. Which is why I thought the solenoid was welded. I can't explain things any other way. The drive is stuck engaged at the moment when I uninstalled the starter. Thanks for your comments
 
(quoted from post at 17:51:44 08/20/19) I know the process. This process does not happen which was leading me to believe the starter was still trying to spin. Which is why I thought the solenoid was welded. I can't explain things any other way. The drive is stuck engaged at the moment when I uninstalled the starter. Thanks for your comments

Here is the process as I understand it. If the bendix is physically/mechanically "stuck" in the engaged position with the engine running the engine will start driving the starter at engine speed. The starter will be "spinning" but not electrically, solenoid contacts open or closed will have no effect on that, and the starter will quickly become toast. Does that agree with your understanding?

TOH
 
I would agree with that. The tractor starts right up due to all upgrades but the drive never disengages. I gave the wrong issue from the start. I don't uh understand why on a brand new starter it can work fine and then just go bad like that. It's under warranty so I'll send it back.
 
ssiron79 ,I had a new style drive do the same thing on my 43 2N war model 12 volt system and a 6 volt starter that I rebuilt and put on the new style drive and ring gear, after I rebuilt the engine.I first thought the solenoid stuck on as I started it at a idle the first time,yes solenoid as it has no linkage for a starter switch,shut it down and it stopped so I knew the solenoid was ok.So I started it again at a idle and it stayed engaged again,shut it down. So I thought I would try it at half throttle,cranked it up and it kicked the drive out that time.Tried a couple more times at half throttle and it worked fine,tried again at idle and it worked fine,and has been good ever since.Must have been something stuck in the drive not allowing it to retract and spinning it faster made it pop loose.
 
(quoted from post at 20:29:01 08/20/19) I wo2V uld agree with that. The tractor starts right up due to all upgrades but the drive never disengages. I gave the wrong issue from the start. I don't uh understand why on a brand new starter it can work fine and then just go bad like that. It's under warranty so I'll send it back.

This is not uncommon and happens with both 6V and 12V systems. Many years ago I fought the same recurring problem with the starter on my 6V 9N. A new starter and bendix eventually put an end to it.

TOH
 
My guess is that the starter Bendix did not release; especially a new aftermarket part. I don't see the contacts in solenoid "welding" unless the coil in solenoid does not release contacts properly due to 12v leaving some residual magnetism in a 6V winding, or overcranking. At any rate, easy to test a starter solenoid to see if contacts stuck with test light or voltmeter. I think a 12volt solenoid would be better choice in long run for reliability. If the transmission neutral lock start is bypassed with a push button and solenoid , a safety factor comes into play. I had a 2N like that and converted it back to original for that reason; and it is a simpler system.
 

I am in the process of getting a warranty replacement. It's frustrating this starter is less than 2 weeks old. The ratchet drive is supposedly much more reliable. That is why I was so confused. The previous owner did the conversion and did it correctly from all the research I have done. I went one step further and replace the carb, put an electronic ignition(no more points) and this starter. I just wanted it to be a reliable piece of equipment. It was for approximately a dozen starts.
 

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