Replacing the 8N

8N-MW

Member
Hey!

So I’ve really grown to enjoy the 8N, especially with it running better than it ever has (thanks to this forum). However, I’m looking to upgrade. I'd primarily like live/independent PTO, lower gearing and a bit more horsepower.

I'd like to run brush mowers, snow blowers, maybe an FEL one day, wood chippers, etc...

I own 12 acres in Minnesota. Woods, pasture (would like to eventually hay myself), long drift-prone driveway, animals soon, etc...

I've been looking at, but haven't physical seen, for all around the same price:
-IH 656 with IH 80 blower. Not too rusty but certainly original paint. One set of hydraulics, 1000 PTO.
-Ford 4000 (gas) and 5000 (diesel). Both have two sets of aux hydraulics, locking rear differential, power steering and look ready for a parade.

I'm used to the 8n mechanicals, father in law really knows IH so no problem there either.

Thoughts? What would you fellas advise?
 
Knowing more about your brand
preference, horsepower requirements and
budget would help a lot.
You mention a couple of IHs. I dont
know anything about those and would
suggest you ask about them on the
Farmall board for guidence.
You mention doing some haying - some day
on your 12 acres. I presume you are
thinking about small squares and not big
rounds. To run even a small square baler
I'd want at least 50 hp with live or
independent pto.
You mention a couple of Fords.
I like my Fords and this is a Ford board
so of course I would steer you towards
one of those.
I would love to own a 60 hp Cat II 5000
but would have no use for a tractor that
large and it would be a stretch to haul
with my Chevy 2500hd and 10k trailer. I
might do it once or twice but not
regularly like I do my tractors. And it
would likely bust all my cat I
implements which have taken me years to
acquire.
A 50 hp 4000 is a mid sized cat I/II
tractor and is well spoken of by
Everyone - no matter their brand
preference.
They will have independent pto, live
hyds, diff lock and nearly all of them
will have power steering. Most will be
an 8 speed. I personally would skip the
Select O Speeds - even though I plan to
sell one this summer.
Remember that Ford built TWO completely
different 2000s and 4000s. Pre 1965 4
cyl models and post 65 3 cyl models.
While the 4 cyl 'Priors' are good
machines, the 3 cyl models are Better.
You mention a 4000 gasser. Perhaps the
one currently on Mpls Craigslist?
That is a real sweetheart.
However, on a tractor that size I would
want a diesel. They are way more
efficient, longer lived and more
reliable. Get a diesel and leave your
darned spark and carb problems behind.
You might consider a 3000 too.
Just under 40 hp and can be had with
live pto and power steering which were
optional.
Just don't buy one unless it has those
two options.
A 3000 still has the wishbone front axle
like the Ns have so not optimal for a
loader.
4000 has a much heavier front axle.
A 3000 is not much larger than an N.
About like a Jubilee sizewise.
A 4000 is substantially larger/taller.
Both are more complex than an N but
would not be too unfamiliar to an N
owner.
Where in MN are you?
Meet me at my property in Aitkin some
weekend in May and I'll put you on my
3000D with the 2-16s behind it and you
can do a bit of plowing/disking - try it
out.
My email is always open here if you want
to talk about these tractors more.
The 3 cyl Fords are the ones I know and
like the best.
 
What Ultradog said.

I might just add that CNH is aggressively abandoning parts support for vintage Ford tractors. No doubt, they are doing the same vis a vis vintage IH tractors. Of course, you will be able to get generic tune up and high volume parts from the aftermarket for years to come but you will likely find yourself searching scrap yards for other parts.

These days few folks are salvaging old tractors and selling the parts on the internet because the money is no longer there. Most old tractors that become no longer serviceable for their owners are being scrapped. Accordingly, the source of used parts is drying up. Something to consider.

Depending upon your budget and time frame, you might want to consider a more modern used tractor from a major manufacturer, e.g., Kubota or (gasp!) JD.

Though I still have 3 vintage Fords, one is for sale, one is a retirement project (maybe), and the other is a true exception that I will keep forever. I made the switch to Kubota for my users and never looked back.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 11:08:21 03/17/19) Knowing more about your brand
preference, horsepower requirements and
budget would help a lot.
You mention a couple of IHs. I dont
know anything about those and would
suggest you ask about them on the
Farmall board for guidence.
You mention doing some haying - some day
on your 12 acres. I presume you are
thinking about small squares and not big
rounds. To run even a small square baler
I'd want at least 50 hp with live or
independent pto.
You mention a couple of Fords.
I like my Fords and this is a Ford board
so of course I would steer you towards
one of those.
I would love to own a 60 hp Cat II 5000
but would have no use for a tractor that
large and it would be a stretch to haul
with my Chevy 2500hd and 10k trailer. I
might do it once or twice but not
regularly like I do my tractors. And it
would likely bust all my cat I
implements which have taken me years to
acquire.
A 50 hp 4000 is a mid sized cat I/II
tractor and is well spoken of by
Everyone - no matter their brand
preference.
They will have independent pto, live
hyds, diff lock and nearly all of them
will have power steering. Most will be
an 8 speed. I personally would skip the
Select O Speeds - even though I plan to
sell one this summer.
Remember that Ford built TWO completely
different 2000s and 4000s. Pre 1965 4
cyl models and post 65 3 cyl models.
While the 4 cyl 'Priors' are good
machines, the 3 cyl models are Better.
You mention a 4000 gasser. Perhaps the
one currently on Mpls Craigslist?
That is a real sweetheart.
However, on a tractor that size I would
want a diesel. They are way more
efficient, longer lived and more
reliable. Get a diesel and leave your
darned spark and carb problems behind.
You might consider a 3000 too.
Just under 40 hp and can be had with
live pto and power steering which were
optional.
Just don't buy one unless it has those
two options.
A 3000 still has the wishbone front axle
like the Ns have so not optimal for a
loader.
4000 has a much heavier front axle.
A 3000 is not much larger than an N.
About like a Jubilee sizewise.
A 4000 is substantially larger/taller.
Both are more complex than an N but
would not be too unfamiliar to an N
owner.
Where in MN are you?
Meet me at my property in Aitkin some
weekend in May and I'll put you on my
3000D with the 2-16s behind it and you
can do a bit of plowing/disking - try it
out.
My email is always open here if you want
to talk about these tractors more.
The 3 cyl Fords are the ones I know and
like the best.

Awesome info thanks so much!

Yep that's the 4000. The 5000 is on tractor house in Jordan. There's also an 861 in Cambridge. Only $4,600 and I could use the $2k in savings towards my shed this spring. I know it probably isn't as nice as the 4000 but would be an improvement.
 
I own 12 acres in Minnesota. Woods, pasture (would like to eventually hay myself), long drift-prone driveway, animals soon, etc...

I have a 3000 3 cylinder diesel . I notice some blow by out the breather while running the IH 8420 4' x 4' round baler but it can handle it . That's probably the smallest round baler they make . It would not handle a bigger baler . I do not know the HP needed for square balers . It runs a 9' Deere sickle mower with ease .

Since I can only afford to get one piece of equipment a year I have what I have . Doing round bales a 5000 with a front loader / spear would be the way to go . It has enough power and weight to stack bales in the barn . Square bales are more cost effective on a small operation , if you have enough help picking and stacking them in a barn .

A big tractor with a loader and an 8N for light stuff like mowing and raking would be a good combination .
 
I avoided the prior 4000/3 cylinder 4000 debate for multiple reasons but you mentioned the 861 in Cambridge (OH?).

If you are considering this, you might want to consider my good 860, which is for sale.

Email is open on Classic if interested.

Dean
 
The 860 was made in the 55-57 model years. The 861 was made in the 58-62 model years. FWIW, the so called "prior" (4 cylinder) 4000 was made in the 63-64 model years.

The 861 has different fenders and grill and about 4 more PTO HP than the 860 (44 vis a vis 48). The HP increase is due to a small increase in CR and a larger carburetor, air cleaner and exhaust. The HP increase is almost all in the high RPM range and generally unnoticeable.

The 861 also uses noticeably more gasoline than does the 860.

Dean
 
$4600 is way too much to spend on that 861. It's a buyer's market right now for all Hundred series Fords and they can regularly be had here in Central MN for $2500 or less at auction. Last fall I saw a nice 961 gasser sell for $800.

Where abouts are you? I know of a very nice 961 wide front here in Long Prairie that's for sale. I don't know what the fellow wants, but I'd be happy to put you in touch with him. He's very fair. My email is open in Classic View.

That 4000 is a lot of tractor, but would give you plenty of flexibility in terms of power, and as UD said, a more robust front end for a loader.

Colin
 
That would depend upon the 861.

Here too, you can find 861s for $3,000 or so but all of them need lots of work, though it may well not be readily apparent to most buyers.

Finding an 861 that needs NOTHING is very difficult, and just about all owners of such tractors know it.

Expect to spend $5,000+, even in this market, for one that needs NOTHING.

Dean
 
I searched for a GOOD 4000SU diesel for a couple of years before giving up and going orange.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 10:54:24 03/17/19) Hey!

So I’ve really grown to enjoy the 8N, especially with it running better than it ever has (thanks to this forum). However, I’m looking to upgrade. I'd primarily like live/independent PTO, lower gearing and a bit more horsepower.

I'd like to run brush mowers, snow blowers, maybe an FEL one day, wood chippers, etc...

I own 12 acres in Minnesota. Woods, pasture (would like to eventually hay myself), long drift-prone driveway, animals soon, etc...

I've been looking at, but haven't physical seen, for all around the same price:
-IH 656 with IH 80 blower. Not too rusty but certainly original paint. One set of hydraulics, 1000 PTO.
-Ford 4000 (gas) and 5000 (diesel). Both have two sets of aux hydraulics, locking rear differential, power steering and look ready for a parade.

I'm used to the 8n mechanicals, father in law really knows IH so no problem there either.

Thoughts? What would you fellas advise?

I would advise actually going to see the machines. Your IH 656 is a 6600# machine on 38" rubber. That is just a little more tractor than an 8N????

Go look at some 40-50 HP 20 year old or newer diesel MFWD utility tractors with loaders and HST or power shift transmission. Lots of colors to choose from.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 16:22:32 03/17/19) That would depend upon the 861.

Here too, you can find 861s for $3,000 or so but all of them need lots of work, though it may well not be readily apparent to most buyers.

Finding an 861 that needs NOTHING is very difficult, and just about all owners of such tractors know it.

Expect to spend $5,000+, even in this market, for one that needs NOTHING.

Dean

Are the 861 diesels any good? There's one for sale local to me.
 
You certainly want to keep the 8N around. Truth is you need more than one tractor. I too longed for more horsepower and acquired a Case 1490 with a FEL. At 83 hp it's a Beast compared to the 8N. It can do things the 8N will never do but I much rather be on the 8N as I can see and hear what the tractor is doing and go places the 1490 would never fit. I use the little ford more than the heavy Case as it is quite nimble and easy to drive. I would stay within the 50hp range with your acreage. Diesel is ok if you have a fuel source for non bio diesel to avoid algae issues.
 
The diesel versions are less common than the gasoline version and produce about 6-7 less HP.

The early Ford 4 cylinder diesel is a converted gasoline engine and was flawed when initially released. It was designed without a crankshaft balancer and was prone to break crankshafts. Ford later incorporated a balancer which seems to have solved the problem. Some, but not all of the early diesel tractors have been retrofitted with balancers. Those that have not been should be avoided.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 05:41:17 03/18/19) The diesel versions are less common than the gasoline version and produce about 6-7 less HP.

The early Ford 4 cylinder diesel is a converted gasoline engine and was flawed when initially released. It was designed without a crankshaft balancer and was prone to break crankshafts. Ford later incorporated a balancer which seems to have solved the problem. Some, but not all of the early diesel tractors have been retrofitted with balancers. Those that have not been should be avoided.

Dean

Thanks, that's good info.
 
I bought an MF-20 off of our local school district in an end of service life silent bid. It is very close to a MF-135. It needed a clutch which I did. I outfitted it with a M8000 Warn winch and lights front and rear to make it more versatile for me. I still have and use my 8N equally. I think equipment needs to be used.
 
(quoted from post at 05:22:30 03/19/19) I bought an MF-20 off of our local school district in an end of service life silent bid. It is very close to a MF-135. It needed a clutch which I did. I outfitted it with a M8000 Warn winch and lights front and rear to make it more versatile for me. I still have and use my 8N equally. I think equipment needs to be used.

Is the MF-35 a good tractor? I noticed one for sale the other day. Is has the Continental gas engine with power steering. I'm not sure if it has live PTO or not but it looked like it was in decent shape. The guy wanted $3100, I'm not familiar with these particular tractors so I wasn't sure if it was a fair price or not.
 
(quoted from post at 11:20:37 03/19/19)
(quoted from post at 05:22:30 03/19/19) I bought an MF-20 off of our local school district in an end of service life silent bid. It is very close to a MF-135. It needed a clutch which I did. I outfitted it with a M8000 Warn winch and lights front and rear to make it more versatile for me. I still have and use my 8N equally. I think equipment needs to be used.

Is the MF-35 a good tractor? I noticed one for sale the other day. Is has the Continental gas engine with power steering. I'm not sure if it has live PTO or not but it looked like it was in decent shape. The guy wanted $3100, I'm not familiar with these particular tractors so I wasn't sure if it was a fair price or not.

They are well regarded tractors for their time. The Perkins diesel much preferred over the gasoline Continental. Two stage clutch / live PTO and PS were options - aka Deluxe model - which is the one you want if you are shopping ;-) I think they all had a selectable transmssion/ground PTO option as well but I could be wrong. I still regret not getting the MF35 Deluxe diesel my neighbor kept parked by the road. If I could have talked him (or his son after he died) into selling it would have needed new rear tires to get me to the $3100 price....

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 08:57:17 03/19/19)
(quoted from post at 11:20:37 03/19/19)
(quoted from post at 05:22:30 03/19/19) I bought an MF-20 off of our local school district in an end of service life silent bid. It is very close to a MF-135. It needed a clutch which I did. I outfitted it with a M8000 Warn winch and lights front and rear to make it more versatile for me. I still have and use my 8N equally. I think equipment needs to be used.

Is the MF-35 a good tractor? I noticed one for sale the other day. Is has the Continental gas engine with power steering. I'm not sure if it has live PTO or not but it looked like it was in decent shape. The guy wanted $3100, I'm not familiar with these particular tractors so I wasn't sure if it was a fair price or not.

They are well regarded tractors for their time. The Perkins diesel much preferred over the gasoline Continental. Two stage clutch / live PTO and PS were options - aka Deluxe model - which is the one you want if you are shopping ;-) I think they all had a selectable transmssion/ground PTO option as well but I could be wrong. I still regret not getting the MF35 Deluxe diesel my neighbor kept parked by the road. If I could have talked him (or his son after he died) into selling it would have needed new rear tires to get me to the $3100 price....

TOH

Thanks TOH, this one is the Deluxe model so it must be live PTO because it has power steering as well. I'm not sure if it has the ground PTO option and it unfortunately doesn't have the Perkins diesel.
 
(quoted from post at 14:47:50 03/19/19)
(quoted from post at 08:57:17 03/19/19)
(quoted from post at 11:20:37 03/19/19)
(quoted from post at 05:22:30 03/19/19) I bought an MF-20 off of our local school district in an end of service life silent bid. It is very close to a MF-135. It needed a clutch which I did. I outfitted it with a M8000 Warn winch and lights front and rear to make it more versatile for me. I still have and use my 8N equally. I think equipment needs to be used.

Is the MF-35 a good tractor? I noticed one for sale the other day. Is has the Continental gas engine with power steering. I'm not sure if it has live PTO or not but it looked like it was in decent shape. The guy wanted $3100, I'm not familiar with these particular tractors so I wasn't sure if it was a fair price or not.

They are well regarded tractors for their time. The Perkins diesel much preferred over the gasoline Continental. Two stage clutch / live PTO and PS were options - aka Deluxe model - which is the one you want if you are shopping ;-) I think they all had a selectable transmssion/ground PTO option as well but I could be wrong. I still regret not getting the MF35 Deluxe diesel my neighbor kept parked by the road. If I could have talked him (or his son after he died) into selling it would have needed new rear tires to get me to the $3100 price....

TOH

Thanks TOH, this one is the Deluxe model so it must be live PTO because it has power steering as well. I'm not sure if it has the ground PTO option and it unfortunately doesn't have the Perkins diesel.

The mid 70's and 80's Masseys are common and inexpensive around here so a 50's -60's vintage MF-35 does't command a very high price - much like an 8N ;-) You can get a lot more tractor for a modest price shopping the slightly newer Masseys. Current Craigslist offerings in increasing size and price:

MF 135 (gas) - $2700

MF 230 - $3400

MF 255 - $4500

MF 255 (gas) - $5000

MF 275 - $6500

That is pretty representative of what you see on a regular basis.

TOH
 
Ford adapted their 172cid gasoline engine as their first diesel. They were in a hurry, and should have built a more robust application specific engine. That said, it's a good engine and has served many people well. I have one and really, really like it. Uses about the same fuel as an N, but produces twice the HP.

What Dean says is right, but I don't think you'll find a working engine without a balancer at this point. 60 years is a long time to operate with a critical design flaw. And if it made it 60 years, it probably won't break due to a lack of a balancer.

Colin
 

"And if it made it 60 years, it probably won't break due to a lack of a balancer."

... unless, for example, its new owner works it harder than the previous owner(s) did.
 
MF 135s were also made with a Perkins 3 cylinder gasoline engine. This is a converted diesel engine and is a very good engine. Torquey and economical but the anti dieseling solenoid in the carburetor is troublesome.

I would much prefer a 3 cylinder Perkins gasoline engine to a 4 cylinder Continental.

Dean
 
The MF 35 was a good tractor in it's day but be wary of those with Multi-Power, as it likely will not work properly, if at all.

35s were offered with the very good Perkins 3 cylinder gasoline engine, which I would much prefer over the 4 cylinder Continental, which is prone to cracking between cylinders 2 and 3.

Avoid the hard starting 4 cylinder Standard Motors diesel at all costs. The 3 cylinder Perkins diesel is the engine of choice for most.

Be advised that these tractors are quite old, and, having been spoiled by ubiquitous and inexpensive parts for your 8N, you will find parts for MF tractors less readily available and more expensive.

The PS system is very expensive to overhaul so avoid or check out thoroughly.

Dean
 
My pal Kenny has an 841 diesel.
He remanufactured the engine a few years
ago and had the pump and injectors
rebuilt.
It really is a sweetheart little
tractor.
Such smooooth power, at least compared
to the 3 cyl diesels I run.
Those things hammer and clang away and
make a Lot of noise. The 4 cyl Ds are
much quieter.
I haven't run it that much but I did get
to put it on my heavy 6' Bush Hog for
about 6 hours one weekend. Just to get a
sense of one. It is a great tractor but
I did miss the L pto and most of all,
the power steering.
If you upgrade, just Don't compromise on
those two options.

cvphoto17143.jpg
 
Correction: The Perkins 3 cylinder gasoline engine was not available in the MF 35. It became available during the 135 model run.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 17:12:04 03/19/19)
I did miss the L pto and most of all,
the power steering.
If you upgrade, just Don't compromise on
those two options.

<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto17143.jpg">

I agree, I'm trying to take my time and find something with both of those options and not rush things just to get another tractor. What I have works for now. I did miss out on a nice 850 the other day, it sold within a day for a good price so I would've been tempted but I'm glad someone else bought it. Part of the fun of buying an old tractor is "the hunt" so I don't mind if it takes a while for the right one to come up. When a nice one comes up you do have to jump on it quick though.
 

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