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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
:

Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting

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Irish_Jake

03-15-2019 06:55:03




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Hey all! I've just finished a (long, drawn out) block-up rebuild of my 8n, and I'm running into some problems getting it to start. I wanted to run through the troubleshooting I've done and see if I can get feedback on if I'm on the right track, or suggestions any of you might have.

Tractor details - Front-distributor 8n, was 12v (extra resistor inline with wiring) but I replaced the wiring harness and moved it back to 6v with a new battery. Starter cranks with no problems. I did have a problem where I wasn't getting power to the distributor, but traced that to a bad ballast resistor which I replaced. Confirmed power to the distributor and spark on the #3 plug after that replacement. All parts for full rebuild and rewire were purchased through YT.

Current problems



    * Either gas 'weeping' from shutoff / sediment assembly, or condensation. I installed a replacement sediment assembly as part of the rebuild and it turned out to be garbage - leaked from the bowl no matter how I set the rubber seal / tightened it down, and the valve wouldn't fully turn off the fuel flow. Cleaning that up was a mess. I removed the new assembly and put the old assembly back on with the new seal, and it holds. The bowl doesn't fill with fuel without cranking the tractor or removing the carb drain, which is a passed test for the bowl seal. However, it was dripping from weird places - wet around the top (but not around where it screws into the tank) and from the 'knob' (the little round bit you twist) on the fuel shutoff. What's throwing me is that it seemed more watery than fuel-like, and it was incredibly humid here in the midwest yesterday so the whole tractor was covered in moisture inside my garage. Doesn't appear to be leaking from any of the 3 likely points - bowl (definitely not), fuel line attachment point, or tank attachment point. Could I really have that much condensation, or am I more likely looking at a leak from somewhere like the valve handle?

    * Spark only at some cylinders. Only discovered this last night when I pulled all my plugs to see if maybe the cylinders were flooded. I had been using cylinder 3 as my 'test plug' and stupidly didn't check the rest. My assumption here is that I probably have an issue with the points, given they sat for a year and a half during this rebuild. That sound correct? I also cleaned the ground strap attachment point last night to make sure I had a good clean connection. My presumptive next step is to pull the distributor and clean / check the points, which isn't thrilling because it means taking the tank off again but oh well. Also checked and confirmed correct spark plug gap on my new plugs.

    * Gas from air intake tube. I had fuel in the short rubber hose connecting the air intake tubing to the carb - I'm not sure if that could be there just from the amount of cranking I was doing, or if it means I have a float level issue in the carb. Thoughts?

    * The overall problem is that I can't get the tractor to fire - no start, no pop, no backfire. The above issues are all part of troubleshooting that problem.



If there's other questions I need to answer to help diagnose the issue, please let me know![/list][/list]

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jon corbett

03-26-2019 06:45:02




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
intake manifold not sealed against block.no suction to pull gas to plugs.



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Den N Ms

03-27-2019 11:22:43




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to jon corbett, 03-26-2019 06:45:02  
Jake stated in an earlier post that it was pushing pressure out of the intake plug,That tells me that the camshaft is out of time with the crankshaft.Another camshaft gear drilled or marked wrong.



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HFJ

03-25-2019 08:40:45




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

bingo. it's a shame that this website is based on software from the last millennium. apparently, keeping ACTIVE topics at the top is a bad idea to some.



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Irish_Jake

03-25-2019 08:09:28




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Weird, must be classic view where that happens instead of each new reply bumping the post? Anyway, will start a new thread.



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Den N Ms

03-24-2019 17:13:27




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Irish_Jake ,You need to start a new thread as this is getting lost pages back.
Your problem is in the valve timing especially if you have compression coming out of the intake plug.Forget about the spark plugs for now,until you get the the cam timing right it is NOT going to run.
Check the crankshaft- camshaft timing as I previously outlined.Or you just as well pull the front timing cover back off and fix the problem.

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Irish_Jake

03-24-2019 15:54:31




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Plug - http://dropshare.artisandm.com/Screen-Shot-2019-03-24-18-52-20.png

Seems like oil, and mostly on the threads - consistent with the wet compression test. That said, I would be surprised if they've been wet with gas as well - the carb is consistently dripping out the air intake still, and I've spent a lot of time cranking this tractor in the past 2 weeks without it firing.



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showcrop

03-24-2019 04:13:05




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Determine if they are wet from oil or gasoline. smell.



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Irish_Jake

03-23-2019 19:08:08




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Went out and pulled one of the plugs again - it is wet (seems oily, maybe from the wet compression test?) but spark remains strong - both across the spark gap and when holding the plug ~1/8" from the manifold.



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Irish_Jake

03-23-2019 10:11:08




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
As of last night all 4 plugs were out and had strong spark while laying against the manifold. I can pull one again and check for wetness, but they did all have spark.



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showcrop

03-23-2019 09:11:25




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Jake, your spark plugs are waiting to reveal all. Hook up a spark tester or just ground to the block. When you first pull the plug out is it wet or dry?



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Irish_Jake

03-23-2019 08:33:14




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Ok, so updates -

Code: New new resistor is in place, everything wired back up. Also cleaned up the distributor and replaced the rotor since that was cracked. Put everything back together and I have good spark to all 4 plugs.

Verified that with the first cylinder at TDC (roughly, used my finger to find the space between pressure and suction in the #1 spark plug hole) both of the #4 valves are fully closed.

Verified firing order is correct while testing the plugs for spark.

Figured out that my compression gauge kinda sucks - it doesn't seem to seal well, and by tightening it while cranking (when pressure is pushing up on it's seal) I was able to improve compression. Going to set that issue aside from the moment as 'likely bad equipment'.

Properly added the two missing nuts back to the manifold.

Topped off the battery to 100%.


And... still nothing. Cranks strong, but no sign of actually starting. Have tried choked & unchoked and various throttle levels.

What I know is still problematic -


Code: Leak from the valve at the sediment bowl (replacement part on hand, but clearly not stopping the tractor from starting).

Fuel leaking from the intake tube next to the carb (I suspect a bad float level).

Valve / tappet clearances aren't within spec (too much gap by ~.005 or so on a couple I checked), tool for adjusting those arriving this week.


Should any of those prevent it from firing? My suspicion is that they shouldn't, but I'm not entirely sure.

One thing I notice that's weird - when I pull the bolt out of the port on the manifold just above the carb (not sure what it's there for - starting fluid maybe?) and put my finger over it while cranking, I feel pressure, not suction. That seems strange right? Shouldn't I feel suction there?

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Irish_Jake

03-18-2019 18:23:46




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
So let's say I'm an idiot, and forgot that I was missing 2 nuts for my exhaust/intake manifold - in particular the 2 middle nuts. What are the odds that could lead to enough flex to lose compression in the two middle cylinders? I suppose if the valves are closed it shouldn't matter... but I suspect it still could? Those are also the cylinders I have the lowest compression in.

It does look like I have valve lash that's too high on at least a couple of valves - in the range of .020 on at least one valve.

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Irish_Jake

03-18-2019 07:58:47




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Either way, new resistor terminal ordered, won't be grounding that post again. Once that's in between that and cleaning up the points (still concerned about whether that's in good shape or not) I'll check spark to all the plugs. In the meantime I'll pull the exhaust manifold and side covers to check the valves / timing.



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Irish_Jake

03-17-2019 11:35:07




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
http://dropshare.artisandm.com/Screen-Shot-2019-03-17-14-33-08.png

I could be reading it wrong but that's the test procedure as I understand it.



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Irish_Jake

03-17-2019 11:11:51




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

The operator manual calls out grounding the wire to the distributor as a test for bad spark at the plugs.



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deanostoybox

03-17-2019 11:24:15




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-17-2019 11:11:51  
"The operator manual calls out grounding the wire to the distributor as a test for bad spark at the plugs"

That works on a side mount distributor when the points are open, it simulates closing the points. Short that wire to ground, then when it is un-shorted it should make a spark.

On a front mount distributor with the square coil you do not have access to that connection with the distributor and coil installed on the engine as that connection is between the pigtail spring on the bottom of the coil and the dished head screw where the wire from the condenser and the copper strap from the points attach.

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Irish_Jake

03-17-2019 10:51:53




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Fourth attempt at posting, I think it's getting filtered because of links, so I've removed a couple and made a couple less link-y.

Well at the moment every troubleshooting test feels like a step backward, which is frustrating. Went with electric issues tonight, and here’s where we ended up -

I can no longer consistently get continuity across the ballast resistor. It’s new, from YT, P/N A8NN12250A to replace the old one I also wasn’t getting continuity across. My tester is good - Klein isn’t quite Fluke but I trust my multimeter. I was getting continuity earlier, but at ~6 ohms if I recall correctly, which is quite a bit higher than it ought to be. Now I can’t get continuity or a resistance reading across the resistor at all. What’s more likely here - that I’m an idiot or that the resistor is faulty? It doesn’t look great, part of the ‘winding’ is embedded in the white ‘core’ material, but I don’t know what if anything that means.

That also means I’m no longer getting a spark when grounding out the circuit post-resistor, either from the post at the resistor block or from the other end of that wire at the distributor.

I also pulled off and tore down the distributor tonight. It mostly seems to be in good shape - point gap is good, contacts all around look good, but I cleaned all the contacts anyway. It’s definitely been serviced by someone who was a little rough with the flathead though, and I notice 2 things -

First, the points are, while parallel, very slightly out of alignment. That didn’t seem worth fixing without replacing the points because they meet flat in their current position. I’d say there’s about 75% contact due to the alignment issue.

More concerning - I have vertical (or in-and-out), not side-to-side play in the shaft. I’d expect if the bushings were bad I’d see side to side play. Looking at a diagram, I do see that I don’t have the clip, P/N 12177 on the front mounted distributor breakdown diagram I can't link. The shaft can move in and out along it’s axis ~1/8". Further, if moved forward (toward the front of the tractor if mounted) the shaft binds when rotating, but moves fine if moved ‘back’ to what seems to be the correct position. I’m wondering if that clip is the missing piece in keeping it there, if it naturally stays in that position, or, if my final point of concern is causing this -

The tip of the distributor rotor - /Ford-8N_Distributor-Rotor-Front-Mount-Distributor_B2NN12200A.html - is a little chipped and beaten up. Not sure how or why, but maybe the pressure back from that piece onto the shaft is what’s supposed to keep it in the proper position?

I’ll add, by the way, that this was a running tractor (on 12v with the additional resistor) when I started this project. It was running poorly (burning oil, didn’t sound great, etc. and I found that one of the valve springs was broken in the middle when I tore it down) but was running. I do note looking back at my pre-work photos that I think they were bypassing the old ballast resistor - dropshare.artisandm.com/Screen-Shot-2019-03-16-23-50-15.png - so perhaps it’s not surprising that the old one wasn’t working.

Anyway, step backward with the electrics, not moving on to the compression / valves / timing until I can get the electric pixies to all the spark plugs.

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deanostoybox

03-17-2019 11:02:08




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-17-2019 10:51:53  
"That also means I'm no longer getting a spark when grounding out the circuit post-resistor, either from the post at the resistor block or from the other end of that wire at the distributor."

Grounding out that wire probably burned out the resistor. It would then have full battery voltage across it, and many times the current through it than it was designed for.



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Irish_Jake

03-17-2019 10:47:57




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Third attempt at posting, I think my links are getting it flagged. Trying without URL tags -
Well at the moment every troubleshooting test feels like a step backward, which is frustrating. Went with electric issues tonight, and here’s where we ended up -

I can no longer consistently get continuity across the ballast resistor. It’s new, from YT, P/N A8NN12250A to replace the old one I also wasn’t getting continuity across. My tester is good - Klein isn’t quite Fluke but I trust my multimeter. I was getting continuity earlier, but at ~6 ohms if I recall correctly, which is quite a bit higher than it ought to be. Now I can’t get continuity or a resistance reading across the resistor at all. What’s more likely here - that I’m an idiot or that the resistor is faulty? It doesn’t look great, part of the ‘winding’ is embedded in the white ‘core’ material, but I don’t know what if anything that means.

That also means I’m no longer getting a spark when grounding out the circuit post-resistor, either from the post at the resistor block or from the other end of that wire at the distributor.

I also pulled off and tore down the distributor tonight. It mostly seems to be in good shape - point gap is good, contacts all around look good, but I cleaned all the contacts anyway. It’s definitely been serviced by someone who was a little rough with the flathead though, and I notice 2 things -

First, the points are, while parallel, very slightly out of alignment. That didn’t seem worth fixing without replacing the points because they meet flat in their current position. I’d say there’s about 75% contact due to the alignment issue.

More concerning - I have vertical (or in-and-out), not side-to-side play in the shaft. I’d expect if the bushings were bad I’d see side to side play. Looking at a diagram, I do see that I don’t have the clip, P/N 12177 on this diagram - http://www.external_link.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_14_81 . The shaft can move in and out along it’s axis ~1/8". Further, if moved forward (toward the front of the tractor if mounted) the shaft binds when rotating, but moves fine if moved ‘back’ to what seems to be the correct position. I’m wondering if that clip is the missing piece in keeping it there, if it naturally stays in that position, or, if my final point of concern is causing this -

The tip of the distributor rotor - https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Rotor-Front-Mount-Distributor_B2NN12200A.html - is a little chipped and beaten up. Not sure how or why, but maybe the pressure back from that piece onto the shaft is what’s supposed to keep it in the proper position?

I’ll add, by the way, that this was a running tractor (on 12v with the additional resistor) when I started this project. It was running poorly (burning oil, didn’t sound great, etc. and I found that one of the valve springs was broken in the middle when I tore it down) but was running. I do note looking back at my pre-work photos that I think they were bypassing the old ballast resistor - http://dropshare.artisandm.com/Screen-Shot-2019-03-16-23-50-15.png - so perhaps it’s not surprising that the old one wasn’t working.

Anyway, step backward with the electrics, not moving on to the compression / valves / timing until I can get the electric pixies to all the spark plugs.

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Irish_Jake

03-16-2019 21:33:57




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Testing - Previous post isn't showing up.



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Irish_Jake

03-16-2019 20:54:29




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Well at the moment every troubleshooting test feels like a step backward, which is frustrating. Went with electric issues tonight, and here's where we ended up -

I can no longer consistently get continuity across the ballast resistor. It's new, from YT, P/N A8NN12250A to replace the old one I also wasn't getting continuity across. My tester is good - Klein isn't quite Fluke but I trust my multimeter. I was getting continuity earlier, but at ~6 ohms if I recall correctly, which is quite a bit higher than it ought to be. Now I can't get continuity or a resistance reading across the resistor at all. What's more likely here - that I'm an idiot or that the resistor is faulty? It doesn't look great, part of the 'winding' is embedded in the white 'core' material, but I don't know what if anything that means.

That also means I'm no longer getting a spark when grounding out the circuit post-resistor, either from the post at the resistor block or from the other end of that wire at the distributor.

I also pulled off and tore down the distributor tonight. It mostly seems to be in good shape - point gap is good, contacts all around look good, but I cleaned all the contacts anyway. It's definitely been serviced by someone who was a little rough with the flathead though, and I notice 2 things -
First, the points are, while parallel, very slightly out of alignment. That didn't seem worth fixing without replacing the points because they meet flat in their current position. I'd say there's about 75% contact due to the alignment issue.

More concerning - I have vertical (or in-and-out), not side-to-side play in the shaft. I'd expect if the bushings were bad I'd see side to side play. Looking at a diagram, I do see that I don't have the clip, P/N 12177 on this diagram - http://www.external_link.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_14_81 . The shaft can move in and out along it's axis ~1/8". Further, if moved forward (toward the front of the tractor if mounted) the shaft binds when rotating, but moves fine if moved 'back' to what seems to be the correct position. I'm wondering if that clip is the missing piece in keeping it there, if it naturally stays in that position, or, if my final point of concern is causing this -
The tip of the distributor rotor - https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Rotor-Front-Mount-Distributor_B2NN12200A.html - is a little chipped and beaten up. Not sure how or why, but maybe the pressure back from that piece onto the shaft is what's supposed to keep it in the proper position?

I'll add, by the way, that this was a running tractor (on 12v with the additional resistor) when I started this project. It was running poorly (burning oil, didn't sound great, etc. and I found that one of the valve springs was broken in the middle when I tore it down) but was running. I do note looking back at my pre-work photos that I think they were bypassing the old ballast resistor - http://dropshare.artisandm.com/Screen-Shot-2019-03-16-23-50-15.png - so perhaps it's not surprising that the old one wasn't working.

Anyway, step backward with the electrics, not moving on to the compression / valves / timing until I can get the electric pixies to all the spark plugs.

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Irish_Jake

03-16-2019 20:53:00




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Well at the moment every troubleshooting test feels like a step backward, which is frustrating. Went with electric issues tonight, and here's where we ended up -

I can no longer consistently get continuity across the ballast resistor. It's new, from YT, P/N A8NN12250A to replace the old one I also wasn't getting continuity across. My tester is good - Klein isn't quite Fluke but I trust my multimeter. I was getting continuity earlier, but at ~6 ohms if I recall correctly, which is quite a bit higher than it ought to be. Now I can't get continuity or a resistance reading across the resistor at all. What's more likely here - that I'm an idiot or that the resistor is faulty? It doesn't look great, part of the 'winding' is embedded in the white 'core' material, but I don't know what if anything that means.

That also means I'm no longer getting a spark when grounding out the circuit post-resistor, either from the post at the resistor block or from the other end of that wire at the distributor.

I also pulled off and tore down the distributor tonight. It mostly seems to be in good shape - point gap is good, contacts all around look good, but I cleaned all the contacts anyway. It's definitely been serviced by someone who was a little rough with the flathead though, and I notice 2 things -
First, the points are, while parallel, very slightly out of alignment. That didn't seem worth fixing without replacing the points because they meet flat in their current position. I'd say there's about 75% contact due to the alignment issue.

More concerning - I have vertical (or in-and-out), not side-to-side play in the shaft. I'd expect if the bushings were bad I'd see side to side play. Looking at a diagram, I do see that I don't have the clip, P/N 12177 on this diagram - http://www.external_link.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_14_81 . The shaft can move in and out along it's axis ~1/8". Further, if moved forward (toward the front of the tractor if mounted) the shaft binds when rotating, but moves fine if moved 'back' to what seems to be the correct position. I'm wondering if that clip is the missing piece in keeping it there, if it naturally stays in that position, or, if my final point of concern is causing this -
The tip of the distributor rotor - https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Distributor-Rotor-Front-Mount-Distributor_B2NN12200A.html - is a little chipped and beaten up. Not sure how or why, but maybe the pressure back from that piece onto the shaft is what's supposed to keep it in the proper position?

I'll add, by the way, that this was a running tractor (on 12v with the additional resistor) when I started this project. It was running poorly (burning oil, didn't sound great, etc. and I found that one of the valve springs was broken in the middle when I tore it down) but was running. I do note looking back at my pre-work photos that I think they were bypassing the old ballast resistor - http://dropshare.artisandm.com/Screen-Shot-2019-03-16-23-50-15.png - so perhaps it's not surprising that the old one wasn't working.

Anyway, step backward with the electrics, not moving on to the compression / valves / timing until I can get the electric pixies to all the spark plugs.

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Irish_Jake

03-16-2019 14:00:03




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Ok, responding to a number of things -
For those asking about how it was cranking, the video linked in my last reply is from last night, that's currently how it's cranking.

The camshaft gear was purchased as part of the overhaul kit offered here through YT - I left the original gear on during the rebuild because it was in fine shape, then destroyed it with the long bolt during reassembly. After that I replaced it with the gear from here at YT and reassembled with the timing mark matching.

I see the replies suggesting valve checks & timing related checks and I'll make those next on my list, but I've decided to clear the electrical problems first. I lost my spark during todays testing, no longer get a spark grounding the wire to the distributor (but do have continuity to back from that wire through to the far side of the ballast resistor, so wiring is correct), and did have moisture on and in the distributor, now pulled off the tractor.

I'm not sure why, with continuity, I'm not getting a spark there. Honestly it could be my testing method involving an extra wire held to that wire termination & grounded while reaching the other hand around to push the starter button (key on). I grabbed some aligator clips to better test that. I may have an issue with not enough current, but I cleaned the ground strap point to bare metal and the positive connection is solid as well, so I'm not sure. Will retest.

Since I pulled the distributor I'm going to clean it up, check all points / contacts, etc, and test it on the bench as well as I can. Picked up contact cleaner and contact grease, along with 600grit sand paper. One at a time I want to eliminate all potential electrical problems.

When that's all cleared and tested and I have solid spark at all 4 plugs, I'll attempt to start again and, if nothing works at that point, move into the block and start checking valves. Given that I've had the engine cranking for a couple of weeks and have done a lot of testing with it, my assumption would be that any damage from bad timing would have already happened, and I haven't heard or seen any evidence of that. Is that a fair assumption, or should I also pull the exhaust manifold and side covers before any further cranking?

If it helps with diagnosis, it's also easy enough for me to video any part of this process to share here, so let me know if that would be helpful.

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Jim L WA

03-16-2019 16:30:37




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-16-2019 14:00:03  
Jake, incorrect cam timing isn't going to damage anything. That only happens on overhead valve engines where the valves are right over the piston. Hang in there, you're getting a great education and will have advice to pass on to others. I had to smile when you talked about working on 4 carburetors on a Yamaha. Back in the '70's I had a Yamaha 250. It didn't seem to accelerate right. I found that the throttle cables to the two carburetors weren't in sync. One would start opening quite a bit before the other one.

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Den N Ms

03-16-2019 14:34:13




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-16-2019 14:00:03  
bad cam gear would not be the first from YT.
Camshaft timing is your problem I would bet.
Check out the previous post about bad gears.

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1376898&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=camshaft&start=0

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1359947&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=camshaft&start=15

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Den N Ms

03-16-2019 13:07:40




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Jake,WOH-STOP,Just went back and read Yes, and yes (and on the second timing gear as well, after making the long bolt/short bolt mistake).

Where did you get the second camshaft timing gear from? We had another poster I don't remember who it was, a while back with the same problem ,the holes in the gear were drilled wrong and that put his camshaft timing wrong



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Den N Ms

03-16-2019 12:31:45




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  

Jake,First remove the side valve covers and check the valve lash.
Intake .010-.012 exhaust .014- 016.Bottom side of the lobe,Once the valves check out,check the compression again,If it is still low the camshaft timing is off.Get #1 piston at TDC compression stroke,Find with finger in the plug hole both valves closed,#1piston at TDC that point look at #4 valves they should be on the rock.In other words ,if you move the crankshaft back just a little from TDC you should see a valve start to open on #4.Same thing if you move the crankshaft forward just past TDC you should see the other valve on #4 just start to open. If it doesn't do that then you have the camshaft timing off.The front cover will have to come off to set the cam timing.

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Jim L WA

03-16-2019 10:42:38




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Jake, I thought of something yesterday. I said the spark problem points to rotor or cap. It could also be worn bushings in the distributor causing the points not to open or open enough when the cam lobes come around for plugs numbers 1,2 and 4. If you find that is the problem, don't go out and buy a new distributor from the land of close. You can get new bushings for yours.



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showcrop

03-16-2019 09:36:53




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I'll bet that rather than lack of updraft it was really a leak on the intake side, so it was not getting adequate gas.



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grizz02

03-16-2019 05:15:58




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
are you sure your valve lash is correct those numbers lead me to think the valves are not closing , and then there's the spark issue



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showcrop

03-16-2019 05:01:32




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
It looks to me like you need to check you valve lash.



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james hill

03-16-2019 04:28:21




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
My last completed rebuild was in October , couldn't get that baby to start for nothing, turned out the new exhaust/ intake manifold wasn't sealing even when I double gasket it to the motor, and wasn't creating the up draft necessary for the gas to get into the cylinders, ending up putting the old intake back on and she started right up, and has been running fine since.



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jon corbett

03-16-2019 01:57:26




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
suggestion,after rebuild did u oil the cylinders to create suction when engine turns over?good strong suction is required as these motors are updraft for gas to be carried up to cylinders.and check manifold/carb gasket for seal.



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JMOR

03-15-2019 20:47:51




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seethose are low, but you might get it to start if you pull start in 4th gear and if run a bit, numbers might improve.



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Irish_Jake

03-15-2019 19:50:54




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Well, not what I was hoping for. Here's the results of a compression test with fuel off, plugs all pulled, cranking cold in a ~40F garage.

Dry - 60 | 30 | 15 | 30

Wet - 70 | 30 | 35 | 70

I realized after those 2 sets of tests that I had the throttle half open, so I opened it back up, went back to the first cylinder (with a bit more oil) and... 40 PSI. Took a video of that last test for sharing, take a look here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqDf0ao4xTE

So, those numbers are terrible, and don't seem to be super consistent as I'm testing. I'm hoping that it's not cranking fast enough (hoping the video will help with that) or I'm doing something stupid, because it seems to me that I have something sealing poorly. Rebuild was full - sleeves, rings, pistons, and valves. All the parts were assembled per the service manual spec, with proper torque on all bolts including the head, but no honing was done.

What are your thoughts?

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ASEguy

03-16-2019 04:13:36




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 19:50:54  
And make sure you have adequate cranking speed. Charge or replace if needed the battery. You must have adequate cranking speed to obtain accurate results. I would also let the cylinders dry out in case they were washed out with fuel.



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Den N Ms

03-15-2019 16:03:16




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Irish_Jake, Take compression test on all 4 cylinders with all plugs removed,throttle wide open and about 4 hits for each.write the results down and post them after you test it.



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Irish_Jake

03-15-2019 14:51:49




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Yes, and yes (and on the second timing gear as well, after making the long bolt/short bolt mistake).

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Purchased today, will be checking that next.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

These will have to go onto my list.



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Den N Ms

03-15-2019 14:36:54




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Irish_Jake ,Did you have the crankshaft out when tou did the rebuild,if so did you get the camshaft timing marks lined up correctly? You need to check the compression with a gauge,Remove the distributor clean and polish the points and adjust then at ,015 on all 4 lobes ,check the bushings for side play on the distributor shaft.Check inside the cap for moister, carbon tracks ,also the rotor. Be sure you have the offset lined up when you bolt the distributor back on.

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Irish_Jake

03-15-2019 11:02:07




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I mean, it's still attached to the tractor but no I did not include it in the circuit when wiring in my new harness. :)



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Irish_Jake

03-15-2019 11:01:15




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I'm grounding it to a bare-of-paint head bolt, so a solid ground, and the spark is across the gap, not from plug to ground. The spark is consistent to that one plug. That means the points are good? I would have assumed one point might be good and others bad, but I'm not all that familiar with points to be honest.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

That's a new thing to me - aside from moisture what should I be checking there? The humidity / moisture was pretty unique to yesterday. We had our first thaw in 2 months + rain, so a lot of moisture in the air.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I'm not sure how to confirm that, but everything about the tractor leads me to believe 'yes'. The conversion, as far as I was able to tell, consisted of a 12v automotive battery, and an additional inline resistor, the same resistor I see in the conversion kits available online.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Good news on that count, I hate rebuilding carbs. My '82 Yamaha motorcycle has 4, I've done enough of them. I'm keeping my 6v charger attached any time I'm around the battery to keep it topped up, and paying attention as I can hear it getting lower (slower crank). I also tried jumping with my heavier duty (read: higher amp) 12v battery charger as described in the big list of tips for how to jump from a 12v battery. No difference.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Firing order should be correct, I've double checked (have both the operator and service manuals) but will triple check.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I haven't, although I should. Everything was in-spec when I put it together but I don't have a compression tester. Will probably grab one from an auto part store today.

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JMOR

03-15-2019 10:41:04




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see...........and did you remove that extra resistor that you mentioned?



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Jim L WA

03-15-2019 10:09:15




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 Re: Post-Rebuild Troubleshooting in reply to Irish_Jake, 03-15-2019 06:55:03  
Hi Jake, you're going to get a lot more suggestions than mine, but since I got here first..... I wouldn't worry about the moisture around the bowl assembly till later. Let's get spark to all four plugs and get him to fire up first. When you check for spark at the other plugs, are you grounding them well? You really should be using a spark checker tool. In my opinion, if you are getting spark consistently to one plug, then the points are working. If you are not getting spark to the others, that points to the rotor or cap. Oh, yeah, you don't need to pull the tank off to get at the distributor. Just remove the two bolts that hold the distributor in and remove it. It only goes back in one way. Anyway, you talked about all the humidity in your area, Check that distributor cap for moisture inside. This may be a stupid thing to say, but you converted it back to 6 volts, you are using a 6 volt coil, right? As for the gas in the air intake hose, I would agree that that is form too much cranking. Speaking of that, make sure your battery is fully charged, after lots of cranking. Once you are getting spark (strong, should jump a 1/4 inch gap) to all plugs, then double check the firing order, 1-2-4-3 CCW. Number one at the front of tractor. Let us know how you are doing. BTW, you said this is a fresh rebuild, do you have good compression and vacuum?

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