NAA oil fiasco - rear seal

tinyfarm

New User
Rear oil seal leaks EXCESSIVELY as soon as tractor gets warm.
Engine oil pressure approx. 55# after installing new 2 gear oil pump. Old pump had one gear & pushed 60#. Have installed rear seal twice & still leaks.
Suggestions?

Also - Is crank shaft bearing lubed through crank shaft or from the block?

All help appreciated.
TinyFarm
 
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Search for Keywords: Victor

Search for Author: hobo.nc

Forum: Ford

You will see all I have had to say about'em...

You can also try Keywords, seal, rear, side crank, crankshaft, leak, remove.


https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/search.php?mode=results

You are either doing it wrong are the engine needs to come out and a crank put in it... That is if the engine does not have excessive blow by if excessive blow by you need to rebuild the engine excessive crank case pressure will blow by a rear seal :(...
 
I'm a 3 cylinder man.
I respect the Red Tigers for the billions
of useful hours they have chugged along
but I will never truely like them, mainly
because of their crude crankshafts.
Sorry but that's what I think.
I don't know what to tell you on the rear
seal. They are not a fool's game to
install.
Did you loosen the main caps and drop the
crank a little?
I rarely use gloves but did to help grip
the seal and push it up when my fingers
were oily.
Have you dropped the rear main cap and
looked on the crank where the seal rides
for roughness or excessive grooving?
Maybe they sell a speedi sleeve for those.
There are more and better Red Tiger guys
here than me. Am just giving your post a
bump till someone weighs in.
Good luck.
 

On a professional forum they were talking about warranting a rear seal job... Those young bucks never lived when a 2 piece seal was the norm are warranty would have never came up...

Continuations seals are the norm today other than a dam junk chevy V6 3.6 life is good replacing them even tho I never warrant a rear seal job up front they can take their junk to someone that will...

A plus for a 3 cly ford...
 
(quoted from post at 19:27:29 02/05/19) I'm a 3 cylinder man.
I respect the Red Tigers for the billions
of useful hours they have chugged along
but I will never truely like them, mainly
because of their crude crankshafts.
Sorry but that's what I think.
I don't know what to tell you on the rear
seal. They are not a fool's game to
install.
Did you loosen the main caps and drop the
crank a little?
I rarely use gloves but did to help grip
the seal and push it up when my fingers
were oily.
Have you dropped the rear main cap and
looked on the crank where the seal rides
for roughness or excessive grooving?
Maybe they sell a speedi sleeve for those.
There are more and better Red Tiger guys
here than me. Am just giving your post a
bump till someone weighs in.
Good luck.

Unfortunately, I'm stuck with that crude-looking shaft in a Red Tiger.
I tell ya'
If GM had had a 3-pont tractor
I'da been there

My oil pressure is 42
Now I'll hold my breath anyhoo
Thanks to you!:D

T
 
(quoted from post at 02:15:14 02/06/19) Go to top of page modern view click on Search

Search for Keywords: Victor

Search for Author: hobo.nc

Forum: Ford

You will see all I have had to say about'em...

You can also try Keywords, seal, rear, side crank, crankshaft, leak, remove.


https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/search.php?mode=results

You are either doing it wrong are the engine needs to come out and a crank put in it... That is if the engine does not have excessive blow by if excessive blow by you need to rebuild the engine excessive crank case pressure will blow by a rear seal :(...

Thanks for the advice.
~TinyFarm
 
Tiny Farm,

I've only done wick seals in trucks but if the one I put into my 1953 GM engine isn't leaking after 35 years, then I must have done something right.

So for however much of this is applicable . . . here goes.

REAR ENGINE WICK SEAL REPLACE -- Engine In

Remove the rear main cap and the old seal half.
Using a round rod (half inch or less) work from the wick ends down into the hollow, FIRMLY roll/work the new seal half into the groove. Will outline trimming the wick later on.

Loosen the mains just enough that the crankshaft barely drops away from the block half of the bearing shells.

Attach a length of strong fishing line or wire to one end of the upper wick seal but with that wire or line puller being not more than 3/8" in from the pulling end of the seal.

Pinch and shape the seal narrower . . . possibly use the bearing cap to shape the part of the seal that will enter and slide into the block groove.
If you use your main cap, to pre-shape your block half of the seal, you will have a much easier time of feeding it into the block groove!
For now, thinly coat only the part of the seal entering the block groove with Lubriplate bearing assembly grease.

Pass the free end of the wire up and over the crankshaft flange then start the leading/pulling end of seal into the block groove.

Grab the pulling wire with vise grips with good teeth and pull taut while rotating the crankshaft in the same direction so as to assist in pulling the seal all the way up and over in its block groove. The crankshaft itself becomes its own rear seal upper half installer.
If I have an engine out I would use the crankshaft flange itself and a wooden mallet to seat the seal half in the main bearing cap.

When you are sure that it is uniformly positioned in the block groove tighten up the main bearing caps that you loosened but don't tighten them to full torque yet. A guy could also use a wooden 2X 2 on a floor jack to bear up a little against the crankshaft flange while trimming the seal ends. It's the little clearances you can't see that will make the difference.

When trimming the upper seal half ends flush with the block use a new razor knife blade held flat with fingers against the block's bearing cap mating faces while cutting toward the flange, with the middle of the new blade. not the point. this will ensure that your seal trim cuts aren't angled.

I'm in favor of cutting the cap ends of the seal a tiny bit proud; i.e., higher than the caps mating faces. BUT if you elect to do that then kind of pinch the little 1/16" excesses you left into a pyramid shape so that you know they will press into the upper seal ends and not interfere with cap to block mating faces during reassembly. The weakest link with the installed seal is probably the joints where the wick seal ends meet.

If I were doing this with the block upside down on a bench, it would be the block half of the seal ends that I would leave a hair high. But working upside down with engine in it will be trickier to be a perfectionist about cutting proud at the block side, but easier to be accurate cutting the cap ends a little proud. The cutting proud idea restores a little wick compression at the joining, where cut ends make for a diminished wick density.

Note:
When you apply Lubriplate to the block half of the seal, try and keep it off the face of the seal to minimize the seal slippage on the crankshaft flange so existing friction between flange and seal will make it easier using the rotating shaft flange to pull it up and over in its groove. It's a combination of the pulling pressure on your fishing line being just enough to cause the wick to stay with or follow the rolling crank flange. So it's as much like the crank is rolling its own seal into position as you pulling it in. The less slippage between seal face and crank flange at that stage, the better for installation.

If you keep the seal mating ends DRY, then you can put small dots of Permatex #2 where the wicks meet if you like.

If you use strong fishing line, you could actually with a needle run a couple of passes right through the wick before wrapping and tying it. The more your line puller is centered coming off the end of the wick, the truer the wick will travel.

another thought . . .
You might want to have a friend be rotating the shaft for you so that you can have two hands free for the process. One hand pulling and the other hand's fingers minimizing resistance where the seal is entering the sharp edges of the block groove.

Terry
 
In case y'all thought
that my seal tutorial was a copy/paste from somewhere . . .

I wrote it myself yesterday for Tiny Farm
and never got so much as a how-do-you-do
from Tiny. :D
 
(quoted from post at 22:47:51 02/07/19) In case y'all thought
that my seal tutorial was a copy/paste from somewhere . . .

I wrote it myself yesterday for Tiny Farm
and never got so much as a how-do-you-do
from Tiny. :D
That was a good tutorial. Thank you.
 
Thanks Hunkydory!

One mistake I made when I said to use a round rod to roll the seal into the cap . . . .
You don't have to actually [b:7d5c214cf5]roll[/b:7d5c214cf5] the rod itself, you just need a round rod for stroking the seal from cap edge, seal ends to the cap hollow.
Factory installers have a heavy round tool with a post on one side of it, that is the same diameter as the crankshaft flange for tapping the seal into the groove.

A guy could make one out of an abandoned crankshaft, by cutting off the flywheel mounting flange.

Terry
 
(quoted from post at 05:47:51 02/08/19) In case y'all thought
that my seal tutorial was a copy/paste from somewhere . . .

I wrote it myself yesterday for Tiny Farm
and never got so much as a how-do-you-do
from Tiny. :D

SORRY! Just trying to find time to read all the tips, gather supplies & implement. :shock:

Very Appreciative!
~TinyFarm
 
[/quote]

I'm notorious for jumping the gun and spoiled by quick email responses. I was a Johnny come lately to the thread so naturally you had shifted into implementation gear.

You're very welcome,
Terry
 
Sorry for the bump up but here's an addendum.

If you left the face of the block half of the seal, DRY for the purpose of rolling it into place . . . then make sure you are super generous with the Lubriplate on the flange and on the cap side of the seal so the crankshaft flange carries some needed grease to the upper seal half.

Or see if you can use a long tool of some kind to push grease up and over the flange before you pull the shaft back up.
A flexible length of plastic?

Anyway, engine oil will be getting to the face of it soon enough. :)
I'm a 15W40 guy.
but if your oil pressure is low and your bearing clearances max'd out then 20W50 would probably serve you well and minimize burning and leakage.
 
I'd better quit while I'm ahead.:D

There shouldn't be enough room for you to push grease up because the new wick should already be against the flange after installation. So forget the plastic and grease suggestion.

I didn't think that through. :)
 

A Ford is a somewhat different animal... :( an upgrade is a two piece neoprene seal :) an the elimination of those aggravating main cap side seals...

Search it and hope the day never comes you find yourself there...
 
(quoted from post at 07:14:43 02/10/19)
A Ford is a somewhat different animal... :( an upgrade is a two piece neoprene seal :) an the elimination of those aggravating main cap side seals...

Search it and hope the day never comes you find yourself there...

Hobo
You've got your mojo working
I should have remembered that from before
here on the Ford Forum

So it appears I have written a tutorial for a relic! :D
I have had the replacement neoprene halves for my 235 Chev, sitting in my parts collection for years , but as i bragged before,my old wick seal is doing fine.

I rebuilt that engine in 1975.
Was the neoprene replacement available then?

Maybe the wick seal if done right outlasts it's quickie replacement. Nice wide face to the wick seal and smooth as glass mated to the flange.. :)

Too Tall
 
(quoted from post at 10:32:33 02/11/19)
(quoted from post at 01:44:43 02/11/19)

Too Tall

HFJ.

Thanks for that. I've never seen his bio.
He's an inch and a half taller than I.

A friend of mine who was a Malibu lifeguard for 40 years, but retired here, always calls me Too tall..
One day down at Vesuvius beach on the ocean, he told us that his son, who is still in California and still a lifeguard, just phoned him to tell him that he had rescued David Hasslehoff from the water while he was filming a Baywatch episode. :D

The Giraffe Whisperer
 

Hobo,

Incredible comprehensive on seal types and installation!
Saved and ready to be printed.
Amazing that it's all from Hemmings.

Interesting that the earlier wicks designed for certain engines still had their heat and wear resistant asbestos.

One thing I would change about that tutorial I wrote, that's been bugging me, is to coat the entire block half of the seal ([b:7bb9dea919]face included[/b:7bb9dea919]) with assembly grease. So after using the cap to shape the seal, one will be pulling the upper half in and the rolling crank will mostly just be minimizing resistance to the pulling.

Over the years I had heard rumblings about excessive heat causing the wick to deteriorate. the article talks about excessive RPM increase of heat. In my tutorial to Tinyfarm I had added to "run the seal in gently" but then I removed that. But this article shows that to be a good move.

Thanks much,
T
 

I have seen those rope seals deteriorate even on a N... By then the engine was worn out..

Its my belief the original seal used on a N is not the hard as a rock one we see today.. Its what we got and what we have to work with. I have ordered rear seals for a N from Fe-pro its of the graphite impregnated limp rope type but I did not have the balls to install it I did not like the fit...
 

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