Detergent vs Non-detergent oil

Gentlemen: Tell me if I have this right-for engines with no oil filter use non-detergent oil and a magnetic drain plug since the contaminants will settle and not be kept in suspension in the oil. For engines with an oil filter use detergent oil and contaminants will be suspended all the way to the filter. Is this true? Thanks, Phippsburgh
 
(quoted from post at 17:54:59 02/06/19) Gentlemen: Tell me if I have this right-for engines with no oil filter use non-detergent oil and a magnetic drain plug since the contaminants will settle and not be kept in suspension in the oil. For engines with an oil filter use detergent oil and contaminants will be suspended all the way to the filter. Is this true? Thanks, Phippsburgh

Yes.

TOH
 
IF the engine is new/rebuilt or otherwise proven to be clean inside then I see no problem with using detergent oil. Actually detergent oil would be better if the engine is clean. The big problem is non detergent oil will cause sludge and buildup, then if detergent oil is used, it will start dissolving and breaking up the sludge.

Detergent oil will trap, clean and breakdown harmful deposits, it helps neutralize acids and corrosive compounds.
 
most engines are filtered. I was referring to the hyd sump area where in the old machines no filter is present.
 
(quoted from post at 01:27:32 02/07/19) makes one wonder why then put detergent oil in a non filtered hyd sump ???

It's not always as simple as the OP's question or my original answer. There are many facets to machinery lubrication and engineering decisions sometimes mean accepting a little bad with the greater good.

DIN 51524; HLP-D fluids are a class of antiwear hydraulic fluids that contain detergents and dispersants. The use of these fluids is approved by most major hydraulic component manufacturers. Detergent oils have the ability to emulsify water, and disperse and suspend other contaminants such as varnish and sludge.

[i:bd0ed5d519][color=red:bd0ed5d519]This keeps components free from deposits, but it also means that contaminants do not settle out - they must be filtered out.[/color:bd0ed5d519] [/i:bd0ed5d519]These can be desirable properties in mobile hydraulic systems, which unlike industrial systems, have little opportunity for the settling and precipitation of contaminants at the reservoir, due to its small volume.

So when the design of the system is such that the old school idea of settling doesn't work effectively anyway the other benefits of a detergent oil outweigh the downside of the dispersants. BTW, that article is a good primer on the basics of hydraulic fluids and a good read. The full article can be found here:

Choosing the Right Hydraulic Fluid

And that idea of a accepting a little bad with the greater good is also true of engine oils. Engine oils have to deal with high heat, wear, and by-products of combustion. That requires a robust and wide ranging additive package. As a consequence in today's world OEM's (specifically small engines) generally recommend detergent engine oils for use even when the engine does not have a filter. The good in the additive package simply outweighs any bad.

TOH
 
The oil topic here has been discussed to death -search the archives to get a multitude of opinions, facts, myths, and fallacies. You don't need non-detergent oil. I was once told that that stuff is made from used oil, but never could find any data to back it up with. I would use SAE 30 non-detergent oil when I got my first N as that is what the OEM manual spec'd. In 2003 when I rebuilt my 8N, I used SAE 30 detergent and have so ever since. In these old low-compression flathead Ford engines, you don't have to use the non-detergent oil and the modern detergent oils will work fine, and a little better because of their cleaning properties. Ford tractors do have an oil filter and magnetic drain plugs were never OEM equipment. Additional whistles and bells like more filters and such are not needed whether -fuel, air, or oil. It's your tractor and you can spend your hard earned $$$ anyway you wish, but after 80 years, I prefer to leave my tractors OEM and have no issues with doing that. If you read the OEM manuals, it stated SAE 10, 20, and 30 oils and the temp ranges to use them in. So how often did fellas have to change oil? Each time when the outside temperatures changed? How many actually followed that? Not many I'd bet. Sometimes these topics get way over analyzed. Don't get me wrong, having a good engine oil is important and PM with regular oil changes as well, but it ain't rocket science.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)
 
A bit off topic, I confess, but I was asking about an air cooled Kohler I have with no filter.You guys are my trusted source of info. Ns and otherwise. So it was a hypothetical question not specific to N tractors. Thanks
 
(quoted from post at 12:38:55 02/07/19) A bit off topic, I confess, but I was asking about an air cooled Kohler I have with no filter.You guys are my trusted source of info. Ns and otherwise. So it was a hypothetical question not specific to N tractors. Thanks

Kohler has been recommending detergent oils in engines that do not have an oil filter for quite some time. For example this note is taken directly from the Owner's Manual for the K241 engine:

[b:2dede0ea5d]NOTE:[/b:2dede0ea5d] Using other than service class SG or SH oil or extending oil change intervals longer than recommended can cause engine damage.

In this era the use of non-detergent oils in IC engines with or without an oil filter is deader than a dodo.

TOH
 

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