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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
:

Differences in MS carburetors??

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Eman85

01-10-2019 17:41:57




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I have what should be the original MS carb on my 51 8N and it has MS cast in the bowl and TSX33 stamped on it.
I have an old carb from a friend's 8N and it has MS cast at the mounting flange and has a brass tag with TSX 241B 4-54 on it. What is any are the differences in these 2 carbs? I see on this site they list different kits. If I was going to rebuild mine are the kits on this site the ones to use?

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R Geiger

01-13-2019 19:20:22




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Did not think about that but I was thinking about a helicoil insert. with the thru threads your solution might just be the best ida. Thanks. Will tuck that bit of knowledge away for future use. Think I will put a tag on it with that solution written on it, heck someone else may benefit from it if not myself.



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Royse

01-13-2019 18:51:35




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
"It has a problem with the threads in one of the stud holes"

You have options, so you don't need to use that one.

If you ever do decide to fix it though, I drill them out and tap

them to 3/8 vs the original 5/16, then use a 3/8NC-5/16NF stud.

That leaves the original size to fit the manifold. Works great.



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R Geiger

01-13-2019 15:24:19




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Thanks for the info!



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JMOR

01-13-2019 11:25:48




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
Back in yesteryear when Gary & I spent untold hours messing with, working with, cussing & discussing these M/S critters, we found a couple of real differences. (wouldn't matter for kit).



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R Geiger

01-13-2019 10:44:43




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
OK, one of the unmarked ones does have the thin lip like in your photo, It has a problem with the threads in one of the stud holes, so may not use that one.

Thanks for the information.



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Royse

01-13-2019 10:25:57




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Unfortunately, carb cleaner is not as good as it used to be.

Not all M/S carb tops were marked on the outside of the lip.
Some had a very thin top lip that wasn't wide enough to cast
the name in like the others had. Like the one on this TSX-33.



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R Geiger

01-13-2019 09:21:02




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

The "any idea why" question was referring to tightening the screws. The red one is the only M/S carb, it is a tsx33, the other two are not marked. thanks for the info about the raised bolt hole on the one on the right.

Just cleaning them up to build a good one, will use the tsx 33 one. I will he carb cleaner was as good as it was back in the 60's.

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Royse

01-12-2019 20:52:57




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Not sure what you're referring to as to "any idea why".

Hard to tell on those carbs tops from just one picture, but the one

on the right appears to be an aftermarket 8N-9510, possibly a C.

It has the one raised bolt section on the bottom right in the pic.

The one on the left has the brass keeper for the main adjuster.

That was a feature on SOME original M/S carbs but not all.

I have not seen it on the aftermarkets, so I would go with that one.

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R Geiger

01-12-2019 20:08:05




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
This is what I was going by! For whatever it is worth!!



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R Geiger

01-12-2019 20:02:18




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Well, guess I did learn someting today!! any idea why?

can you tell from this photo which one is M/S carb? All three are cast iron.



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Royse

01-12-2019 19:41:47




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Hopefully, we all learn something new every day! :)



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R Geiger

01-12-2019 19:33:42




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
"Did you know you were supposed to tighten the screws in a
specific order? It was recommended on many car carbs too. "

All I see in my M/S section is " tighten screws gradually until all are tight"



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GB in MT.

01-12-2019 19:24:24




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  


"I searched my docs for this service bulletin and could not
locate it quickly, so I had to use the "phone a friend" option.
Thanks Gary! Smile "

Any time LR.

I tell people to save these to their files, and print them out. Makes the doc. very readable!!!

Gary

alias...GB in MT. 8)



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Royse

01-12-2019 19:02:31




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Here's the answer to your question about which carbs were used
when. I searched my docs for this service bulletin and could not
locate it quickly, so I had to use the "phone a friend" option.
Thanks Gary! :)

Note that the service bulletin says the difference is in the venting
and the specific instructions on how the two should be adjusted is

different. It also says the 8N carb, a.k.a 241 should be replaced if

it cannot be adjusted appropriately. I don't believe they need to
be replaced, nor do they need to be adjusted much differently
today. Use the complete or comprehensive kit and adjust it per

the operators manual. Start at 1 and 1/2 out on the main adjuster
and 1/2 turn out on the idle air adjuster.

Did you know you were supposed to tighten the screws in a
specific order? It was recommended on many car carbs too.
If these aren't clear enough to read, I can email them to you.



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Eman85

01-12-2019 18:11:48




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Interesting on the complete kits the 33 is a separate kit from the 241B but the comprehensive kit covers both carbs.
First I have no intention of using an aftermarket carb when I have 2 originals.
For whatever reasons it looks like the 33 wasn't the factory carb for my tractor. It performs fine though. Seems odd though as most everything else was untouched and I've had it over 30 years. I know somewhere along the line I've had it apart for a cleaning but that was 25 years ago.
I have a few projects going on right now and the N is running good. Rebuilding the carb will happen, just a little later. I've done a lot of carbs but mostly auto and motorcycle carbs. cast iron carbs aren't common on cars, but I have done a brass Linkert from my Harley.

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Tim PloughNman Daley

01-13-2019 07:24:47




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-12-2019 18:11:48  
It could be OEM -Ford would use up old inventory when a part was declared obsolete and before the new one was issued unless there was a safety issue involved. My advice is: If it ain't broke...The TSX-33 carb will work just fine on any N. They used a slightly different Main Jet adjustment screw and a knurled knob a with a setting tab. They don't make those parts anymore and every new kit has the later 8N Main Jet screws nowadays. Unless one is doing a totally correct early 9N restoration and wants the look of the OEM TSX-33 carb, forget it and use the new style. Very few Ford tractor folks would know this or even care as tractor shows never do any judging anyway, at least none I'm aware of or ever attended. It ain't like the fussy car show people where you can't get closer than 6 feet or else they get nervous you might breathe on their precious antiques and judging requirements dictate you must have the OEM jack instructions glued to the inside of the trunk or you lose points. You said yours runs fine now -so leave it and move on. Spend your time and money on a useful project like new points or battery tender.

TPD

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Royse

01-12-2019 17:39:17




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
"I get the idea that the 241B is better but I sure would like to know why. What makes it a better carb?"

Nothing. That's an old wive's tale that gets repeated constantly.

Make sure your TSX-33 has an economizer jet in it and run it.

This kit on YT will get it done for ~$30 plus shipping.
This one comes complete with butterflies, drain valve, elbow screen and screws for $55.

I have used both with good results. Note that they fit 241 A/B/C.

I've never seen any documentation on a 241D.

As far as I can tell, there are two main aftermarket suppliers.

Tisco and A&I. Pick your poison. I have not had much luck with A&I.

If you'd like help doing the rebuild yourself, my email is open.

This is one of the many TSX-33's I've rebuilt.

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Tim PloughNman Daley

01-12-2019 11:59:58




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
Marvel-Schebler supplied the carbs for Ford tractors. The TSX-33 was used from 1939 thru early 8N production. Then in 1948, they released the TSX-241 unit - a little bit better designed part with subsequent revisions at B,C, and D. The TSX-38 was the Industrial Unit, used mostly on warhorse 2Ns as it had the double throw choke lever. ALL units operate the same way, and will work just fine on N's. The TSX-241-B carb your buddy has will work fine. Get the complete carb kit -usually about 40-50 bucks. The low budget kits do not have very many useful parts in them. I do not know what they sell her -they sell parts from several different suppliers, don't rely on one brand, nor make any parts themselves, so that is your prerogative whom you buy from. I but my kits on-line, complete. If you want, send me your carb and I will rebuild it professionally, guaranteed to fire right up with little or no tweaking required. My email is open and do not toss out your TSX-33 unit. The 8N and later M/S Carbs used a brass ID tag riveted on the Ping-Pong paddle boss. It had the TSX Model number and a date code stamp of when the carb was manufactured. Your TSX-241-B is perfect for your '51 8N, and the date code is 4-54 -April,1954. That means nothing other than the mfg date. Marvel-Schebler was part of the Borg-Warner Corporation but M/S is no longer in business. It is still highly recommended that you rebuild their carbs before thinking of buying anything made new today. Most new stuff is junk -carbs, distributors, water pumps, generators, starters, et al. ALL of these parts were engineered to be rebuilt over and over again. If the OEM carb hasn't been mucked up by someone trying to drill or ream open any passages, or stripping out any fine threads, it will work fine once cleaned inside and out and rebuilt correctly.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

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Eman85

01-11-2019 11:56:24




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
What did the 33 come on? I get the idea that the 241B is better but I sure would like to know why. What makes it a better carb? These things are pretty primitive as far as carbs go so I wanted to know what is the difference. I'll build the 241B then swap it to my tractor since my 33 is working fine.



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WW2N

01-11-2019 04:32:23




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
As said 241 for your 8N I have rebuilt and ran 33s 241s TSX 38s on 9Ns 2Ns and 8Ns they all do a fine job. Just dont buy a import carburetor you will be sorry.Mikes Carburetors use to have Made in the USA kits. The best running adjs are bottom the main needle and back out two full turns, idle needle bottom it and back out one full turn. And set the engine idle where you want it.



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Farmer Dan

01-11-2019 03:13:38




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
241B would be correct for your 8N. THe 33 will work in a pinch but the 241B is the best of the bunch.



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Eman85

01-10-2019 21:45:08




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
OK, What is the difference or improvement from the TSX33 to the 241B? Is the TSX33 the original for my 51? I'm not worried for restoration reasons, just wondering. Also there are different kits listed for the TSX33 and the 241B so there must be a physical difference somewhere. All of that said should I just rebuild and use the 241B if it's a better design?



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Gaspump

01-11-2019 12:21:05




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 21:45:08  
Already mentioned that the economizers were the big problem with the early 33's. Initially they were way to small, the idle and power needles changed, some castings changed and so far as the TSX-241C is concerned to was a cheap version of the B and again deleting the economizer. The TSX-241B was the happy combination of parts, most efficient and most trouble free. All carbs are suitable for use and if rebuilt with TSX-241B parts you can't beat any one of them.

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Gaspump

01-10-2019 19:24:43




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 Re: Differences in MS carburetors?? in reply to Eman85, 01-10-2019 17:41:57  
9/2/8N gas tractors used M/S carbs TSX-33,241,241A,241B and 241C carbs. most were improvements over the previous model, some like the 241C were less than suitable designs. Ford Tractor and M/S then decided that the TSX-241B was the best version and obsoleted all but the TSX-241B. All versions of the mentioned carbs should be rebuilt to TSX-241B specs so but the 241B kit. Differences were minor, mostly in the jets, biggest variant was the economizer jet at first it was too small then larger then none at all and finally going to the the TSX-241B setup.

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