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Minneapolis Moline Tractors Discussion Forum
:

Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff cas

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refer123

01-08-2019 06:58:54




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I have a1960-61 MM Jetstar, having a problem with hydraulic fluid getting into the differential case. No external leaks. Have to remove diff. level plug every so often to drain out the same amount of oil I added to the hydraulic sys. I have also had to change out the 80/90 gear oil in the differential several times over the years. I am hoping I am not the only person this has ever happened too. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Jim

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refer123

01-20-2019 15:06:06




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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JK2

Since I have to have it, I made it, see pic. This should work?

The only question is, how far do I turn it in? I did a temporary install, turned it in, so it does move. I hope that is a good thing?

it was at 2 1/4" in now it is 2 1/2" in from the outside edge. just need to know where to park it? Do I adjust it after I get it operating?



I tried looking into the opening but had no luck see anything.With a lite in the hole I can see it from that opening but that was all.

The other question I have is about the drive shaft sleeve gasket, brass ring, item 28 in the attached pic. It shows one on each end of the sleeve. the parts manual, under quantity list one. Would like to know if I need one on each end. as you can see in the previous pic I posted, there is one in the tractor, do I put another one in the pump, as the picture shoes. I do not have one there now.



After finding the bad o ring on the pump supply hole, I think I will get some new gaskets and o ring and put this back together. Now that I know where to check for leaks, I will test this. I just need to know how far to turn that adjusting rod I made.

Thanks again for all your help and the help of everybody.

refer123[/b]

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JK2

01-20-2019 17:45:39




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-20-2019 15:06:06  
I have always just snugged them up against then locked with the lock nut.
As for the brass/copper ring I have just put back what was there or measured and calculated to hold the tapered roller bearings snugly in the hole without moving back & forth.
John



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refer123

01-19-2019 16:16:14




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Not a problem JK2

If you read my last post I screwed up too and put down the item # for the "B" hydraulic sys. though all the part #s were correct, the items should have been, 34 thru 37, not 30 thru 34.

Again thanks, this has been a problem for me for years, just hope we can get to the bottom of it



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JK2

01-19-2019 18:05:27




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-19-2019 16:16:14  
Your tractor is supposed to have the parts to hold the line in the hole. It could be partly out of the hole now from operating a loader or 3 point without the tube being held in. The o-ring could also be damaged. I am not sure if you can see the block on the end of the line where it goes into the HYD housing to check the o-ring for damage or not. You know where it is from looking through the hole. See if you can see it by looking down and back through the hole where you add oil. I did have a 5 Star years ago, that was missing the parts yours is missing, that had blown the line out of the hole and was very low on pressure delivered to the remotes & 3 point. It had the same type system and pump on it.

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refer123

01-19-2019 16:10:10




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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MMDEL,

Item # 28 is not on the list of parts I put down, the items I listed were 30 thru 34 and I need to confess, the part # are correct, but a page must have turned while I was reading them. Those are actually for a "B" hyd sys. the item # for the "C" sys are actually 33 thru 37. but like I said all the part numbers are the same. So I don't see an item # 28. I am sending another picture with the pump off. I did find the "o" ring for the top hole "1 O'clock " some what distorted. however it looked like it was covering the entire opening. That is the only O ring, correct? Not being familiar with these Hydraulic sys, I have a stupid question to ask. When I put air pressure on the opening at the 3 O'clock position, which is the supply to the pump, from the reservoir. I got air in the reservoir, which would be normal. So when I put air on the 1 O'clock opening, the pressure port, I still had air coming in the reservoir. Would that be normal?
And again guys, I really appreciate all the help.

Thanks again

Jim

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refer123

01-19-2019 06:26:45




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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So I am still wondering, is my tractor suppose to have those parts or not? I guess the next thing is to pull the HYD pump and inspect again?

Thanks again



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refer123

01-18-2019 16:15:37




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Well I removed the line going to that port in question, I see nothing in it. I will try to attach a picture. it is a mirror looking into that port, as you can see, I see nothing in it. It is 2 1/4" to the back, if that 5/16 rod is 31/2" long, I can't see how it would fit.I tried to move it, does not move. looks like it has a dimple in it. I can not see what that 5/16" rod would do?
If it helps any, here is the Tractor and Engine Serial #

Tractor MD.# Jet Star, SN 16500769, Engine MD.# 06L-4,
SN 16302614,

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refer123

01-18-2019 10:31:34




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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To JK2 and MMDEL,

Thanks for all the help from all, I did get into the ARCO catalog, however I never was able to find the page you are talking about, page 71C item 28. But when I put all my part numbers in they did show up on page( 89B, R2013A00) White/Jetstar. type C hydraulic System. Also the picture blow-up was identical to my book.

Anyway I guess what's next is to remove that one line and valve an see what's there. hopefully I can locate these parts.

Thanks again to all

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JK2

01-18-2019 18:45:21




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-18-2019 10:31:34  
The reason you can't find the items by the number I stated is my fault because I was in the 445 book not the jetstar book. Sorry



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MMDEL

01-18-2019 09:03:56




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
The parts you listed are the parts JK2 and myself are talking about. Am I hearing you right that these parts were not in the tractor when you got it only a pipe plug???? You said you had the system drained can you see if item 28 in your parts. book is in place or partly in place. (and condition of O ring). The long set screw holds this main delivery pipe firmly in position so there is no leakage. Fix this before you refill and test for leaks.

You only need the one line in the rear to your extra tank for added fluid capacity. Also I always fill 3PT housing 3/4-1/2/ below top inside of housing to have enough fluid to operate most any double acting cylinders.

MMDEL

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refer123

01-17-2019 16:47:46




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Thanks for the reply

I have to get permission, from an ARCO Dealer, to get into the AGCO catalog, so I will try tomorrow. But I do have 3 manuals for this jet star, Operator Manual #S-258,Repair Catalog # R-2013A(Basically a Parts
manual), and Shop Manual #MM-14.

In the parts book and the shop manual I see a picture of what you are talking about. I did not remove them, and nowhere in any of the manuals does it explain what that does.

The parts Manual gives the specs on the pieces
ITEM #

31-GM138684 , set screw 5/16"-18 x 3-1/2" long

30-10A9442 Nut- pressure tube set screw

32-50A1041-Nut, stop 5/16"-18

33-10A6386 Gasket- set screw nut (lead). 5/16" ID. 17/32" OD

34-10A3397 Gasket- set screw nut, 11/32"ID. 5/8" OD

Would it be possible to locate them?

The 3/16" line , I believe you are referring to, actually is the vent line from the HYD sys to the Differential. This line is the way the book shows it to be.I do have the breather tube you are referring too, but the brush has been missing. I changed it to a 90 degree, so so it would be harder for anything to enter it.

any suggestions would sure help.

Just an FYI, I was getting fluid in the diff. before I add the reserve tank. Thanks Again

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JK2

01-17-2019 21:34:16




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-17-2019 16:47:46  
Welters 417-498-6496 or Everetts 740-922-3335 should be able to supply any parts you may want. You do need to put the screw back in to hold the tube in place or hyd pressure will push the tube out and cause loss of pressure.

The most likely place for the hyd oil to get into the rear end is through a defective pump seal. The other possibility is bad o-rings and gasket from the rear end casting to the hyd casting where pump pressure goes from the pump to the hyd system.

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JK2

01-17-2019 21:24:49




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-17-2019 16:47:46  
You don't need to sign into the AGCO site. Just click the "VIEW BOOKS" & you can use it.
After looking again it looks as though those are valves next to the HYD housing & the vent line goes past them. On one tractor, I used a pipe cross in the front hole with a longer screw so I could have a fill pipe like the later ones. That one did not have the rear port where the plug was on yours.



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refer123

01-17-2019 10:59:57




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  


Well lets see if this worked



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JK2

01-17-2019 15:47:58




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-17-2019 10:59:57  
It looks like there are 2 problems with your plumbing reroute to add the extra oil. The first is that the front plug should not have been just a plug but a plug with a long screw, a copper washer and a lock nut on it (you can see it on page 71C). This screw holds item 28 on page 71C into the hydraulic housing. The oil from the hydraulic pump goes through this line from the pump to the control valves.

Go here to get to AGCO parts catalog: *http://agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/Viewer/book.aspx?book=agco/r1157c00* Highlight the line between the *'s & click open in another tab.

The other thing I see (I think) is that the small line that connects to the top rear of the hydraulic reservoir appears to be connected to the rear one of you fittings to your tank. If this is true, oil under pump pressure is being force into that fitting. That fitting/line is supposed to be the breather for the hydraulic system and is to be connected to the fitting at the other end of the PTO handle bore in the rear end housing. The rear end housing then allows both system to breathe through the J shaped tube near the front left of the plate between the rear end and the hydraulic housings which has a "bottle brush" in it to keep out bigger things.

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MMDEL

01-17-2019 10:08:53




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
I can't access this

MMDEL



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refer123

01-16-2019 14:26:50




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
IMG_1369.jpeg



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refer123

01-16-2019 14:10:57




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Not sure how to get a picture to this fourm? But as I remember there were just two pipe plugs I removed to install the aux. hydraulic tank. I did notice in the manual where it talked about that spring adjustment you were talking about, but I just removed 2 plugs.



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MMDEL

01-16-2019 09:30:24




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Yes that oil is turbulent under that plate. However you said you removed two plugs. That bothers me. Could you post pictures of what you did. If you removed a plug with a long set screw and a locknut, you screwed up. That set screw holds an internal pressure line in place. Which might explain why the loader is not working properly.

However it would have nothing to do with hyd fluid in the diff.

MMDEL

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refer123

01-16-2019 06:32:27




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Thanks again for all your input. Did you see my last sentence in my last post? I was wondering why the oil is so turbulent under the fill plate, the cover with the rate and cycle levers? Is that normal?

One more thing, I did add a 1 gallon resivoir to the HYD sys. I piped it in using the 2 drain plugs on the bottom of the hydraulic system. Just wondering if that was good or not?

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MMDEL

01-15-2019 11:03:54




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Fluid is not critical in that hydraulic situation. As long as it is a non foaming oil. Every OEM wants you to by the fluids from them. A good idea till you get past the warranty period. How ever nowadays with highly sophisticated transmissions they need certain additives and polymers, you have to make sure what you put in a unit qualifies for the situation at hand.

If you have leakage, pump seal or crack, you will not be able to see directly the leak because of PTO parts in the way.However you should be able to see if there is fluid running down form the top or running below the PTO clutch pack at the rear of the housing.

If the system is wore out adjusting the relief valve won't change anything. The only time changing the factory setting will work is if the relief valve itself is worn or the spring becomes weak. Evidently your unit will only put out 1100# as it is.

If you want to keep your tractor original that is one thing, but if not, you might want to check around salvage yards to find the later style tel-o-flow with external plumbing (a different style pump). That unit could be plumbed to make your loader work faster. But you would also need a separate set of valves to operate the loader.

MMDEL

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refer123

01-15-2019 06:37:29




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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So it sounds like the type of fluid is not to critical? Thats a relief, because no-one was able to cross the MM part #10P706 for the hydraulic fluid over. The reson I asked about the PTO, in reading in the manual I noticed it was driven by the PTO. I have had all three of those fluids in this system over the years. I have it drained now, beginning to work on it. was hoping find the problems with the HYDs.

Now that I can see inside the the differential compartment, maybe I can tell if that oil is bypassing the seal of the pump. I did have a pressure gauge on one of the test ports and could only get 1100 psi on the bucket cylinder. I did find the pressure relief valve and adjusted in more but have not tested it yet.
One more thing I noticed was, after I remove the fill cover, where the Rate and Cycle levers are. I noticed with it running the oil is very turbulent, have to keep cover on to keep from blowing fluid all over. Is this normal?

Thanks Again

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MMDEL

01-14-2019 08:41:17




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
ATF was the original fluid recommended. However with a worn system you might try 20W hyd fluid to help plug up the extra clearance. In the summer you could even go thicker.
The PTO has absolutely nothing to do with the hyd system, however they are both driven off of the same shaft.

Someone else on this site might have a source for a new pump. At the present time I don't have one. Would have to spend some time and research.

MMDEL

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refer123

01-14-2019 06:32:52




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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MMDEL

01-12-2019 07:34:54




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Sounds like maybe your pump is wore out. There is too much clearance between the pump gears and the housing. It is building up so much internal pressure and forcing it past the seal, and not out to the work load. I guess I would still check and make sure there wasn't an internal leak before I bought a new pump. Plug in a 3,000# pressure gauge into one of the remote outlets and check what pressure it is putting out. If I remember right that tractor should be around 1700#.

MMDEL











3









3

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refer123

01-11-2019 08:11:01




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Sorry about not answering directly, but I was still adding oil too the hydraulic and removing it from the diff. so I assume it made no difference. No external leaks. I just don't want the 80/90 oil to get to thin.
The one other problem I have is very slow operation when raising the bucket, have to keep moving the lift lever back an forth, (center to back,) to continue to raise the bucket. It will eventually go al the way up. Not sue if this has anything to do with loosing the fluid.

Thanks

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MMDEL

01-11-2019 07:54:48




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Tractor should be run long enough to warm up fluid. The passage is going to be on the right side, so the PTO assy. is going to be in the way of your line of sight. But you should be able to see if there is fluid coming off the top of the case when you hold one of the remote levers against pressure causing the relief valve to open to build up pressure in that passageway. You may have to cycle the lever to get the fluid hot enough to leak through a small crack. You didn't answer the question if the leak stop for a time after you replaced the seal in the past.

MMDEL

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refer123

01-10-2019 14:53:56




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Ok, I see it now. it looks like soft plug, do I just pry it out?

And when I get it out am I looking for a crack, or should use the hydraulics and look for leaks?

Thanks for the info so far.



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molinegb

01-10-2019 16:31:09




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-10-2019 14:53:56  
Just piece of tin that pops in. May be bit of oil depending on you level. Should be able to see something.



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refer123

01-10-2019 08:19:29




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Ok, I found that cover, there is one on both sides, ? it looks like they are held on by 3, 5/8" bolts, correct?

However it looks like I will need to drain the 80/90 diff oil first, right?



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molinegb

01-10-2019 12:35:25




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-10-2019 08:19:29  
On rear left above axle on back is tin plug for belt pulley drive.4 or 5 inches in diameter. Five bolt holes surround plate.That is where external hydraulic pump or belt pulley drive mounts to. Usually on industrial models.



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SWMolines

01-10-2019 05:50:15




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Unless you have a belt pulley or second hydraulic pump ....., there should be a stamped steel cover on the left-side behind the rear axle.



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refer123

01-09-2019 16:22:28




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Where would this tin cover be? I see no access to the differential, unless you remove the hydraulic system an access it from the top, or break the tractor in half?



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MMDEL

01-09-2019 14:39:31




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
You said you had replaced the seal twice before. If when you replaced the seal and it didn't leak for a period of time then your case must be OK. I would check your shaft and see if it needs a speedi sleeve like S W moline suggested. Or bearings and or housing is wore causing radial movement or excess pressure on the seal causing it to fail.

MMDEL



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refer123

01-08-2019 18:07:38




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
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Thanks for the info. on the pump seal. I have replaced that seal at least 2 times in the last 6 years. does not seem to help.

Maybe MMDEL has something? How do I check for that crack in the passage you are taking about?

Thanks for all the response guys, really appreciate the info.



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SWMOLINES

01-09-2019 12:01:40




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 18:07:38  
You can pull the tin cover off of the left side of the rearend housing and look inside to see if you can determine the source of your leak.



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mmdel

01-08-2019 07:26:32




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff cas in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
Seal on the front of hydraulic pump. Special Hyd. pump seal. Check pump shaft for looseness. If pump is worn badly seal will not hold. Worse case scenario is that there would be a crack in the case in the high pressure passage from the pump to the three point housing. MMDEL



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SWMolines

01-08-2019 07:18:32




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to refer123, 01-08-2019 06:58:54  
It is most likely the oil seal on the hydraulic pump shaft leaking. The shaft will often get a wear groove from the seal as well as the seal wearing and cracking with age.

I have repaired some pumps with a SKF Speedi Sleeve, a new seal, and new bearings while I have it apart.



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lenray

01-08-2019 07:40:31




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to SWMolines, 01-08-2019 07:18:32  
I am having the same problem on a MM M5 DIESEL. My hyd. oil is then leaking out of the PTO shaft area. I can't get the dust seal out of the PTO shaft. How does a guy repair the hyd. leak???
Is it a big repair with splitting the tractor etc. Any help is much appreciated. len in michigan



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R.D.F.

01-08-2019 09:22:44




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to lenray, 01-08-2019 07:40:31  
Those guys gave you some great information. We work on lots of these tractors through out the year, so have a couple tips or you. Depending which hyd system your tractor has, another leak source could be the 3pt-differential connection. The different pumps use different seals and bearings. I can't tell from here what your tractor has. For more help call 920 295 3278, we stock seals and bearings, Dale

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R.D.F.

01-08-2019 09:27:33




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to R.D.F., 01-08-2019 09:22:44  
Forgot to add, we stock seals for the M5 pto, drill a couple holes in the dust cover, insert sheet metal screws and use those to remove it. You don't need it, the modern seals are much improved over the oem seals. Dale



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lenray

01-08-2019 09:51:58




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 Re: Minneapolis Moline Jet Star, Hyd fluid getting into Diff in reply to R.D.F., 01-08-2019 09:27:33  
Hello Dale sent you an email. I can remove the dust seal , but will probable have to destroy it as the 2 screw thing didn't work for me.



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