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Davis 185 Backhoe Project

B

BIG1RED9

Member
My 202 has had the last of my planned repairs - replacing the shifter. Other than a recent power steering cylinder issue, it has faithfully got my work done for several months.

I keep looking at the backhoe and wishing it were functional and then anxiety sets in at the thought of the effort, time and money likely needed to make it work. I am going to start with replacing all the hoses and making the changes nessary to hydrauliclly hook it up to the tractor. Many of the hydraulic lines are a combination of tube and hose. I know I will never find afforable replacements on the shelf.

What is the process to take an hose/tube assembly apart so that the hose can be replaced? If possible, winding up with male or female fittings on the tubes would make future line repairs simple. Should I consider replacing all lines with 100% rubber?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions,
Don
 
If by combination tube and hose you mean the hose is permanently made to the tube by a crimped connection instead of threaded couplings; I would replace the tube and hose assemblies with hoses. If you think it is likely a certain area of a given hose might get damaged make that run using two, or three short lengths so the damaged area could be replace without having to replace a long hose.
 
Since repairing these these things can get expensive quickly, I've started just replacing what breaks and leaving the rest. I know that's not acceptable to some people, and I used to think that way as well, but I figure I'm almost to the point where I could have purchased something newer and had less down time. Although fixing things as they break on an older machine is kind of like buying it with a 0% loan which you can choose to pay or not!
 
There are no fittings. I read about hydraulic non-flared compresssion fittings. Will have to find out the max PSI. Doesn't sound like they way to go so 100% hoses is the likely path. Good idea about smaller hoses.

Thanks
 

If I shared some photos you would likely go oh my. :roll:

You can see the cord on most of the rubber, the rest lots of cracks. Spool valves are frozen, a broken lever. no hookup for tapping into the tractor hydraulics and the seat frame is toast. No idea on the cylinders. I am thinking hoses, then valves, then whatever parts will connect it to the tractor. Fire it up and hope.
 
My backhoe was operational when I got it but I have still had to put much work into it. If you can get the spool valves freed up then at least you can evaluate the rest of the system. I ended up rebuilding all the spool valves with a new old stock kit I was lucky enough to find online. The parts are commonly available, but without the kit you would spend a long time researching and getting all the individual pieces.
Sounds like you have a sizable project on your hands. I wouldn't go too far without first pricing some things out and doing some careful evaluation.
 
Inno, for the valve that was my hope.

Talking with a hydraulic supply house, they say compression fittings are common and can easily handle the psi. I need to plan the time to take a hose assembly apart and then evaluate it further.

Thanks
 
Don,
I would recommend that you figure out the connection to the tractor and then go from there. My 185 loader hoses look as you described yours, but they hold remarkably well. They'll let you know when they need to be replaced. The hose / pipe combination coming from the valve can be replaced with fittings and hose (I have notes and part numbers that I'll post next).

Did your backhoe come with the tractor?

Todd
MF202 / 102 Loader / 185 Backhoe
 
Don,
When you get up and running you may need to replace some hoses. Some are straightforward, but the hoses that connect to the 185 backhoe valve (control box) have to be remade. Here are some notes I made when one of those hoses broke on my 185. An internet search using the part numbers below will bring up vendors.

1) Use either 1-wire or 2-wire for pressure hoses per parts manual / installed hoses.
SAE 100R1AT | 1-wire hydraulic hose
SAE 100R2AT | 2-wire hydraulic hose
2) Fittings for most hoses are NPTF Male Pipe (MP) and are crimped to hoses. Fittings can be straight or 90 degree angled and can be fixed or swivel. Sampling of sizes below, many configurations are available.
MP-04-04 | 1/4" Hose x 1/4" NPTF Male Pipe
MP-06-06 | 3/8" Hose x 3/8" NPTF Male Pipe
MP-08-08 | 1/2" Hose x 1/2" NPTF Male Pipe
MP-08-06 | 1/2" Hose x 3/8" NPTF Male Pipe
MPX-08-08 | 1/2" Hose x 1/2" NPTF Male Pipe Swivel
MPX90-08-08 | 1/2" Hose x 1/2" NPTF Male Pipe Swivel 90
3) The original connection to the backhoe control box was a pipe and hose combination. These are no longer available. The hose can be cut off of these and the 5/8" pipe can be connected to a compression fitting. A length of hose with NPTF male fittings on each end can then be used to connect the pipe to the cylinder. This is the compression fitting to use.
27255-10-08 | 5/8" Flareless x 1/2" NPTF Female
4) Fittings for backhoe control box are SAE Straight Thread O-Ring (ORB) and are size 10 connected to a 1/2" hose. This fitting to use.
MBX90-08-10 | 1/2" Hose x #10 SAE/ORB Male Swivel 90

Todd
 

Hi Todd,

I have the same combination as yours built in 1956. Yes the backhoe came with it.

I have the 185 parts book with diagrams. That should help figure out what is missing for the backhoe hydraulics to connect to the tractor. I was given a box of hydraulic pieces and it might be I have them. Previous owners over the years may have altered it so I won't count on it being a factory setup.

I appreciate your taking the time to list all the part info. That will be comforting help once I dig into it.

Thank you
Don
 
Sounds good. Mine is a 58. I think the backhoe parts books shows most things, but I also think that the loader parts book has some that are needed. Let me know what help you need.
 
Per the book there is a selector valve to send the hydraulic flow to the loader or the backhoe.

1. Where is this located / mounted? (as I have some kind of valve mounted on the backhoe frame)
2. I installed a 2 spool Prince valve for the loader. It has power beyond. With that feature is the selector valve still required?
3. In my case I am guessing the disconnect for backhoe hydraulic supply would be at the valves power beyond. Where does the return go?

Thanks,
Don
 
I'm not familiar with a Prince valve, but here is how mine is setup.

1) On the loader:
High pressure side - My selector valve is hard piped to my loader control valve via small metal pipe fittings, so it sits just below the loader valve. Coming out of the selector valve is a hose which is permanently connected to the selector valve on one end and the other end has a quick disconnect male fitting.

Low pressure side - On the loader reservoir there is a hard piped female quick disconnect fitting. That fitting is near the drain plug on the loader reservoir.

2) On the backhoe:
High pressure side - There is female quick disconnect fitting that is hard piped to the backhoe control valve.

Low pressure side - There is a larger hose that is connected to the control valve. That hose is hard connected on one end to the control valve and the other end has a male quick disconnect fitting.

3) When the backhoe is not connected:
On the loader - The high pressure hose from the selector valve is connected to the female fitting on the reservoir so fluid just returns to the reservoir if the selector valve is inadvertently switched to backhoe.

On the backhoe - The low pressure hose from the backhoe control valve is connected to the female fitting on the backhoe control valve to keep fitting ends clean.

4) When the backhoe is connected:
The high pressure hose from the selector valve is connected to the female fitting on the backhoe control valve. The low pressure hose from the backhoe is connected to the female fitting on the loader reservoir.

5) I'm away from my tractor right now so although this is from memory, I'm nearly certain all of the above is correct. You should be able to get actual hose and fitting sizes from your books, but ask if there are questions.
 
The hydraulic route with the Power Beyond ("PB") option on my Prince 2 spool valve.

PB output to Backhoe ("BH") 6 spool valve input
Return from BH valve to loader frame tank.

No selector valve is used with a PB. I plan on using quick disconnects at the both ends of the hoses so that the BH retains fluid and hoses can be removed for storage when not in use

The valve mounted on the frame of the BH is to cushion the swing cylinders

The following list of hoses do not include those leaving or going to the 6 spool valve. That is next on my list.

1 ea 1/2" x 116" supply from loader 2 spool valve to BH 6 spool
1 ea 1" X 84" Return from BH to loader frame tank
2 ea 1/2" x 42" bucket cylinder
2 ea 3/8" x 58" swing cylinder
1 ea 3/8" x 25" swing cylinder
1 ea 3/8" x 44" swing cylinder
4 ea 1/2" x 35" stabilizer cylinders

I plan to round up to pre-built sizes to cut the cost down.

Don
 
Unless you know a hose builder where you may get a break, it's a good idea to keep hose sizes standard.

I guess the Power Beyond diverts high pressure to either the loader or backhoe based on demand. Sounds nice.

You may consider hard piping one side of the PB to backhoe hose (the PB side). This way when the backhoe in not connected you can attach it to your loader reservoir and keep both of those QDs clean. Otherwise the QD into the reservoir will need something to keep it clean. That's how mine is and the extra hose never really seems to get in the way.
 

For hoses hydraulics I have good experiences with Surplus Center and at times Tractor Supply.

Once the PB adapter is in place you cannot block it. In my case, it must either go to the valve or to the tank. Another option for when the backhoe is removed, would be to re-install the special Prince PB plug and a nipple with cap for the tank. I didn't consider dirt. I was focused on the BH retaining hydraulic fluid as our tanks are not exactly huge. So on the backhoe I will have female QD's.
 
You can also use inexpensive dust covers for exposed hydraulic quick disconnect fittings.

Other that the hydraulic connections do you have the required physical connections between the backhoe and the tractor?
 
(quoted from post at 15:02:53 10/27/19) You can also use inexpensive dust covers for exposed hydraulic quick disconnect fittings.

Other that the hydraulic connections do you have the required physical connections between the backhoe and the tractor?
Click to expand...

Some pieces
Going to start from scratch
Hard lines are beat up and there are some other issues
Will post pictures later in the day
Thanks
Don
 
Metal tube s pinched crushed and bent

Thinking about rubber hoses coming off of valve control with 90 elbow s and routing many of the hoses outside of the pivot point where are they now are
Hinged metal plate that I m holding in the picture I assume is some kind Of locking mechanism?

mvphoto44599.jpg


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mvphoto44601.jpg


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mvphoto44605.jpg

Metal tubes pinched crushed and bent
 
Sorry about the some of the pictures being 90 degrees off. Our power was turned off because of high winds and posted via phone.

I suppose the other option is learning to bend steel tubing if I could determine what caused the impact to the original lines. If it is slop in the mast - maybe get a stop welded to protect them and eventually digging into the king post / mast.
 
Those pipes connected to control valve can be replaced with a MBX90-08-10 fitting ($12). One end connects directly to the control valve and the other to a 1/2" hose end. It's a swivel fitting so there's added flexibility for routing your lines.

Any pipes that are still good can be cut off on the hose side and a 27255-10-08 fitting ($6) can be used.

When I got my 185 the king-post was badly worn, but not enough to damage the lines. I had machine shop work on it and they fit in 2 large bearings and tightened it up nicely. Fortunately my hoses were good when I got it up and running. I have some slow movement from some cylinders, but I don't know what causes it (either control valve or cylinder). It works well enough to dig holes.
 

Given all the repair welds, the lines could have been hit when something broke. Clearly used hard. Going to use the loader and chain to remove all the slack and see how much hose/line clearance there is.

The thought of tearing it apart to replace the bearings makes my back hurt. Doesn't look like fun.

What if anything is used to keep the mast up and to keep it from swinging right to left when not in use.

Thanks,
Don
 
There are 2 flat metal bars that are attached to the frame under the seat where all off the hoses are routed. They are about 10" L x 2" W x 1/4" thick. I think one of yours is shown in your 6th picture (although the end past the hole looks like it was modified for something).
These are attached and swing freely from the kingpin side and the other side has a hole. That hole fits over a welded stud on either side of the boom and is held by a split pin. On mine the backhoe won t retract enough to get over the pin (I think because of work done to the cylinders) so I secure it with a chain. I can also back up to a tree and push the boom close enough to get the bar over the pin.
 

It is what I thought those flat blades were originally used for. I will add that to the repair list down the road. I opted to replace all fittings and hoses. The steel lines are going to be replaced with rubber. Plan at this time is to run the 6 lines for the mast, boom and dipper down along the king post and the 6 lines for the stabilizers and swing cylinders around and under the seat.

Thanks for the help.
Don
 
I think on mine all 12 lines run along the king post. I can get pictures next week when I'm back home if you need them.
 

Thanks for the offer. We shall see once I get started. I am not going to remove anything until the new parts arrive. Going to replace lines at the cylinder connection points and work my way back to the control valve one at a time. Getting to the stabilizer and swing fittings looks to be challenging.
 
An issue surfaced. No tools that I have can remove the hoses from the stabilizer cylinders. There is no room. I have the parts, owners and shop manuals for the 185 and none cover this. It seems the cylinder has to come out and if that is so, it is removed from the bottom of the frame.

That means I would have to hand dig a hole deep enough to drop the cylinder into it or magically lift the 185 2 feet into the air. Only work-a-round I can think of is to break the hose off in the cylinder and then remove the fitting with an easy out.

When I put it back together, I hope to install nipples long enough to come out of the top of the frame and route the hoses outside rather than inside the frame.

Anyone know the correct procedure?

Thanks,
Don
 
There is a way to do it with the backhoe connected to the tractor (if you have everything working). Set the dipper stick on the ground. Use down pressure on the boom cylinder to raise the main frame enough to remove stabilizer. Then put jack under frame. You should then be able to run the stabilizers out for service. This is from the 220 manual, but should also work on a 185.

You can also do it when the backhoe is disconnected from the tractor. With the backhoe attached to the tractor, extend the boom and dipper stick all the out. Then disconnect backhoe / tractor connecting pins (keeping hydraulics connected). The frame at this point will be perpendicular to the ground. You can then raise the boom which will turn the frame towards the boom and expose the stabilizers. You can then run the stabilizers out and do the work. If there isn't enough clearance you can disconnect the hydraulics and use your loader to lift the backhoe frame enough to do the work.
 
At the moment the BH is attached to the tractor but none of the hydraulics work as I am redoing the hoses.

My loader can't lift it. The rear end comes off the ground.
 
I am going to break the fittings off and then use any easyout to remove them....that's the plan anyway.
 
(quoted from post at 18:38:02 11/06/19) I am going to break the fittings off and then use any easyout to remove them....that's the plan anyway.
Click to expand...

Painless - at least for the left side. Picture #1 is the top left stabilizer before removing the snapped off adapter. Picture #2 is the top right - nothing done. Did not notice before that the hole on top right is smaller making access even more problematic. The hoses on the right stabilizer are rough but I am going o leave them be until I get everything running. Then replace them after raising the rear end up.

I did a mock up of how the lines might run under the frame as opposed to above it Picture#3. Using 2-45's per line allows easy access to the hose end for future servicing. Likely going this route.
mvphoto45037.jpg


mvphoto45038.jpg


mvphoto45039.jpg
 
All the hoses are done Pictures attached. Fired it up and several issues surfaced.

1. The hard line that is built into the dipper cylinder has a leak mid line on the side that touches the cylinder. No idea for a fix for this one.

2. The left stabilizer (that I changed the hoses on) will not retract. I can put it down and it will lift the tractor. I can raise it to the point that the all the weight is back on the tractor, but it does not retract into the frame. If I attempt to continue to raise it, typical mid stroke engine RPM is the same. I can hear the RPM drop at the end of stroke. So it would seem that the cylinder and the stabilizer are not connected.

3. There is weeping from the valve spools, and some of the cylinders. Given how long it sat, I will give the fluid a chance to cause parts to swell.


All suggestions appreciated,
Don

mvphoto45254.jpg


mvphoto45255.jpg


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mvphoto45258.jpg
 
Good work Don!
On the stabilizer you might switch hose connections at the control box (left with right) and see if the issue is inside the control box of if it downstream in the hoses or cylinder.
For the leaks in the metal pipe, I have a few in mine and they were repaired (before I got it). It looks like a solder or weld repair (more like solder). I remember when I first saw them it almost looked like brass. If you have a dealer they might have a suggestion.
 
(quoted from post at 21:36:56 11/13/19) Good work Don!
On the stabilizer you might switch hose connections at the control box (left with right) and see if the issue is inside the control box of if it downstream in the hoses or cylinder.
For the leaks in the metal pipe, I have a few in mine and they were repaired (before I got it). It looks like a solder or weld repair (more like solder). I remember when I first saw them it almost looked like brass. If you have a dealer they might have a suggestion.
Click to expand...

Thanks Todd,
I am thinking it could be as simple as the pin for the stabilizer, but yours is a good idea to check it. Sounds like yours was brazed. I will call a hydraulic shop and talk with them about it. Need to look at it some and see if the tube diameter is a candidate for a compression fitting. If it is then maybe a bulkhead fitting or drop in a section of hydraulic hose.
Don
 
I cut a section out of the cylinder feeder tube. It was a crack not a pinhole. I cut 1/4" pieces until it seemed the cutoff piece was free from a crack. Installed the compression fittings and the hose. No leak!

The stabilizer pin was not going through the cylinder end.

So its alive but with a 2 second drip from a stabilizer cylinder. Solve that and install my seat and I am ready to put some time on it to see what else if anything needs fixing.

Before and after Pics attached,
Thanks for the help!
mvphoto45368.jpg


mvphoto45367.jpg
 
Thinking about working on my Davis 185. I would like to completely disassemble it so I can replace/ rebuild the remaining hydraulic cylinders and figure out a fix for the main bearings that supports the right to left swinging and replace all bushings. Little concerned with the weight of the parts but think the loader and 3 pt boom will handle it. My back isnt in the best of condition, so if there is anything known I should be on the lookout for. Appreciate the feedback. Don
 
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